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Wicklow v Laois

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Here we go. The flurry of posts looking for the manager's head. It's as predictable now as Wicklow's early exit from the championship!

For the poster citing the player who arranged his wedding at the business end of season (presumably quite some time in advance) as evidence of lack of loyalty to Magee- what nonsense! Doesn't it show just as much disrespect to his team-mates? As peculiar as it looks from the outside looking in, I'm sure this player had a genuine reason for picking this date so I'd be slow to be too critical. Somehow blaming this on the manager though is grossly unfair. The silence around the two players leaving the panel days before the start of the championship is still deafening. Not the first time either that players from that club have shown contempt for the county team.

Wicklow put in 2 credible performances in the championship this year. No one is happy about that but it's about the best we could've hoped for.
Genuine question to all readers- especially the ones calling for the manager to go: Who was the last Wicklow Snr football manager you DID rate and why?

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 19/06/2017 12:47:21    2001774

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Stanley, don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I stayed two things, both which were correct, our midfielder got married on Friday. Congratulations to him by the way. And that our centre back was out of the country. Good luck to him, I hope he is enjoying the states. They are free to do those things, no questions asked; but realistically if you want to compete at the highest level you delay big events like that until the 'off-season.' I know it sounds cruel, but that is the sacrifice of the Inter-county player. I guarantee you Tiernan McCann of Tyrone and Eoin McHugh of Donegal understand full well the consequences of taking a holiday or a honeymoon during championship time. Plenty get marrried during it, but have the honeymoon at a later stage. I'm not being critical of anyone really, I'm just acutely aware that in a more successful county this simply would not happen. Surely you agree with that, Stanley?

Wicklowman (Wicklow) - Posts: 1059 - 19/06/2017 13:46:00    2001827

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Replying To Wicklowman:  "Stanley, don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I stayed two things, both which were correct, our midfielder got married on Friday. Congratulations to him by the way. And that our centre back was out of the country. Good luck to him, I hope he is enjoying the states. They are free to do those things, no questions asked; but realistically if you want to compete at the highest level you delay big events like that until the 'off-season.' I know it sounds cruel, but that is the sacrifice of the Inter-county player. I guarantee you Tiernan McCann of Tyrone and Eoin McHugh of Donegal understand full well the consequences of taking a holiday or a honeymoon during championship time. Plenty get marrried during it, but have the honeymoon at a later stage. I'm not being critical of anyone really, I'm just acutely aware that in a more successful county this simply would not happen. Surely you agree with that, Stanley?"
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I also think it's strange that any player would knowingly miss such an important game especially after putting so much commitment into training for it. I stated before I'd completely understand and encourage any young person to go off and travel while they can. My objection was to the lack of notice they seem to have given their team-mates and the manager. I don't think we're disagreeing on anything here! My overall point is that it's very unfair for some posters to blame these absences this on the manager.

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 19/06/2017 14:13:51    2001853

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Well then we are in agreement, whatever failings Johnny Magee has, we cannot blame him for the two lads heading to kick ball in America for the summer. We cannot blame for the wedding. Neither can we blame for the final players trip to Vegas. Wouldn't happen in any of the Division 1 counties and do you know why, they know they'd never wear a county shirt ever again.

Wicklowman (Wicklow) - Posts: 1059 - 19/06/2017 14:57:20    2001887

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So 4 players have left the squad/ been unavailable in the last month and this in no way reflects on management?

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 19/06/2017 16:53:09    2001965

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Replying To Wicklowman:  "Stanley, don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I stayed two things, both which were correct, our midfielder got married on Friday. Congratulations to him by the way. And that our centre back was out of the country. Good luck to him, I hope he is enjoying the states. They are free to do those things, no questions asked; but realistically if you want to compete at the highest level you delay big events like that until the 'off-season.' I know it sounds cruel, but that is the sacrifice of the Inter-county player. I guarantee you Tiernan McCann of Tyrone and Eoin McHugh of Donegal understand full well the consequences of taking a holiday or a honeymoon during championship time. Plenty get marrried during it, but have the honeymoon at a later stage. I'm not being critical of anyone really, I'm just acutely aware that in a more successful county this simply would not happen. Surely you agree with that, Stanley?"
Lads just thinking about it Niall Gaffeney was not part of the league panel so presumly he came intp the squad after the league or later into the season so I'd imagine he'd have had his wedding booked well in advanced

Paul McLoughlin being away didn't seem to cause as much of a shock as Jamie and Ross leaving so maybe the managers knew in advance

Im not saying it is right for a player to leave during the business end of the season

WW9 (Wicklow) - Posts: 109 - 19/06/2017 16:54:03    2001966

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Replying To wicklu:  "So 4 players have left the squad/ been unavailable in the last month and this in no way reflects on management?"
No I think it reflects more on the players themselves. 2 of them opted out days before a big match. It wasn't like they left after we got hammered and/or they hadn't been selected etc. It seems to happen a lot- we are not unique. No doubt they were offered a great deal by some club over there. In principle I don't blame them, I only question their timing in informing the manager. If they'd had some problem with the manager surely they'd have been gone before that? Weddings are planned a long way off- we all know that. Magee and managers from weak counties aren't in a position to be able to make examples of decent players as another poster reasonably pointed out.

Question again, who do you all see as having been a 'good' manager in recent years?

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 19/06/2017 17:27:52    2001995

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Replying To stanley:  "No I think it reflects more on the players themselves. 2 of them opted out days before a big match. It wasn't like they left after we got hammered and/or they hadn't been selected etc. It seems to happen a lot- we are not unique. No doubt they were offered a great deal by some club over there. In principle I don't blame them, I only question their timing in informing the manager. If they'd had some problem with the manager surely they'd have been gone before that? Weddings are planned a long way off- we all know that. Magee and managers from weak counties aren't in a position to be able to make examples of decent players as another poster reasonably pointed out.

Question again, who do you all see as having been a 'good' manager in recent years?"
Harry M had a really good rapport with players, talked about league to death in his first year and won the league on account of his consistency of communication. His second year didn't go to plan but to answer your question, Harry M in his first year was the last good manager

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 19/06/2017 17:55:16    2002008

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Replying To stanley:  "No I think it reflects more on the players themselves. 2 of them opted out days before a big match. It wasn't like they left after we got hammered and/or they hadn't been selected etc. It seems to happen a lot- we are not unique. No doubt they were offered a great deal by some club over there. In principle I don't blame them, I only question their timing in informing the manager. If they'd had some problem with the manager surely they'd have been gone before that? Weddings are planned a long way off- we all know that. Magee and managers from weak counties aren't in a position to be able to make examples of decent players as another poster reasonably pointed out.

Question again, who do you all see as having been a 'good' manager in recent years?"
For me, it reflects 100 percent on management.

It is the manager's job to manage situations and people - failure to do so is a failure of management skills

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 19/06/2017 17:58:21    2002014

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A good discussion being and people are right to question everything; this is the way it should be. Firstly, I would like to commend the players who have put themselves forward to represent the county and those who stuck with it and fought so hard over the last couple of matches. Of course, we wanted them to win but giving your all till the bitter end stands for something. Of course, players are free to go, free to get married, free to go on holidays: after all they are not paid and they are not under any contract, however, I think it does send out a 'bad message'; not just to the management but to the supporters, potential managers, sponsors etc and it is hard to figure out why a player would sign up; do all the hard work and when one of the big days comes along, they opt out to go on holiday. I think it can be argued about a wedding and I would give this player the benefit of the doubt. It will be interesting to see what happens now; I think it only makes sense to get rid of the manager if there is a better option available to take the team forward. I think the management have done a decent job considering the constraints and problems they came across in this county.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1214 - 19/06/2017 18:24:24    2002034

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Replying To wicklu:  "Harry M had a really good rapport with players, talked about league to death in his first year and won the league on account of his consistency of communication. His second year didn't go to plan but to answer your question, Harry M in his first year was the last good manager"
Fair enough Wicklu- I wouldn't disagree too much on Murphy. He wouldn't have been my first choice but I'd agree he did a decent enough job over all. I would say though that he had better players at his disposal....far better than Magee has had which skews things somewhat. I'm in no way saying Magee is the best manager etc however some of the criticism I've read of him on here has been very unfair. I don't see much point changing things as I can't see it making much difference anyway. Better to have a steady hand at the tiller for now. I think at least he's shown initiative in many departments.

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 19/06/2017 18:43:27    2002052

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Replying To stanley:  "Fair enough Wicklu- I wouldn't disagree too much on Murphy. He wouldn't have been my first choice but I'd agree he did a decent enough job over all. I would say though that he had better players at his disposal....far better than Magee has had which skews things somewhat. I'm in no way saying Magee is the best manager etc however some of the criticism I've read of him on here has been very unfair. I don't see much point changing things as I can't see it making much difference anyway. Better to have a steady hand at the tiller for now. I think at least he's shown initiative in many departments."
So keep mediocrity because what's the point?
I seriously hope you don't have an official say in management appointment Stanley because that is precisely the attitude that has kept us from breaking through the glass ceiling

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 20/06/2017 11:43:13    2002408

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Replying To wicklu:  "So keep mediocrity because what's the point?
I seriously hope you don't have an official say in management appointment Stanley because that is precisely the attitude that has kept us from breaking through the glass ceiling"
When did I say 'mediocrity'? I said it's better to have a steady hand in charge. Someone who has demonstrated they have some vision and has tried to improve standards. Where has chopping and changing got us exactly? You said yourself that Harry Murphy was our last 'good' manager yet when he departed we were back where we left off too (and that was, with I'd strongly argue, was a more talented group of players than Magee.) Easy to put words in people's mouths; a lot harder to offer viable alternatives eh?

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 20/06/2017 12:53:25    2002475

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Replying To stanley:  "When did I say 'mediocrity'? I said it's better to have a steady hand in charge. Someone who has demonstrated they have some vision and has tried to improve standards. Where has chopping and changing got us exactly? You said yourself that Harry Murphy was our last 'good' manager yet when he departed we were back where we left off too (and that was, with I'd strongly argue, was a more talented group of players than Magee.) Easy to put words in people's mouths; a lot harder to offer viable alternatives eh?"
The thread is only 3 pages long. Read back and you'll see exactly where I stand on it. I've very specifically laid out where the county should be going in terms of personnel and the required skills of said personnel.

I've summarised your post as 'mediocrity' because generic statements like 'a steady hand at the till' is as lazy as it is unhelpful and if you don't see Magee's term, and thus his staying on, as mediocre (and I would not be so generous) then I doubly hope you don't have a say.

Lay out what is required by a Wicklow management team in your opinion and, if you advocate their staying on, how the current management fulfill these requirements

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 20/06/2017 15:11:34    2002583

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Replying To wicklu:  "The thread is only 3 pages long. Read back and you'll see exactly where I stand on it. I've very specifically laid out where the county should be going in terms of personnel and the required skills of said personnel.

I've summarised your post as 'mediocrity' because generic statements like 'a steady hand at the till' is as lazy as it is unhelpful and if you don't see Magee's term, and thus his staying on, as mediocre (and I would not be so generous) then I doubly hope you don't have a say.

Lay out what is required by a Wicklow management team in your opinion and, if you advocate their staying on, how the current management fulfill these requirements"
The thread is only 3 pages long. Read back and you'll see exactly where I stand on it. I've very specifically laid out where the county should be going in terms of personnel and the required skills of said personnel.

I've summarised your post as 'mediocrity' because generic statements like 'a steady hand at the till' is as lazy as it is unhelpful and if you don't see Magee's term, and thus his staying on, as mediocre (and I would not be so generous) then I doubly hope you don't have a say.

Lay out what is required by a Wicklow management team in your opinion and, if you advocate their staying on, how the current management fulfill these requirements.

I'm looking back through your posts and with the greatest respect all I can is naivety. Why don't Wicklow have a better manager? Simple- because it's not a particularly attractive job (never has been either) from a career-development or a financial perspective.
Unless we spend a lot of money we aren't going to get a high profile manager. Based on the paltry sums our county board expends annually this won't be changing anytime soon. It's simply not fair to blame all the woes of the senior football team on the manager when it's apparent our lack of success is cumulative and a very long-standing issue. This is a manager who had the initiative to secure some funds for the cause himself- when have you ever heard of that? There is no fund-raising supporters' club in Wicklow (not since O'Dwyer's term that I'm aware of at least). Where's the money going to come from? I do know for sure that when Ballinakill was looking for sponsors/donations they received an extremely poor response from the '30,000' or so GAA stakeholders (your figure).
If nothing else Magee has demonstrated a desire to improve things within and move things in the right direction. Can he or anyone else do this alone? Of course not. I don't know Magee personally and thankfully for GAA in Wicklow have no say in any decision relating to him or his successor- all I can say from talking to county players from my own club is that they rate him. I'm not offering this as empirical evidence but that informs my view too.
To be brutally honest, the best we can hope for for the foreseeable future until improving underage structures start producing better players is a manager who is enthusiastic enough to get the best out of what we have. If that is 'mediocrity' to you than I await to hear your panacea and the more importantly the means of obtaining it on a shoe-string budget.
P.S. You didn't summarise my post as 'mediocrity'- you used that term in reference to the current manager.

stanley (None) - Posts: 434 - 20/06/2017 16:05:02    2002627

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Replying To wicklu:  "So keep mediocrity because what's the point?
I seriously hope you don't have an official say in management appointment Stanley because that is precisely the attitude that has kept us from breaking through the glass ceiling"
I'd agree with Stanley, no magee hasn't had the best results but two decent championship performences and decent performances in league against wexford and westmeath but a new manager could come in and upset things or bring in a whole new plan and we'd back to square 1 again so I would agree with leaving Magee in charge

WW9 (Wicklow) - Posts: 109 - 20/06/2017 17:46:46    2002685

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Replying To WW9:  "I'd agree with Stanley, no magee hasn't had the best results but two decent championship performences and decent performances in league against wexford and westmeath but a new manager could come in and upset things or bring in a whole new plan and we'd back to square 1 again so I would agree with leaving Magee in charge"
Last two posts haven't gone up - impossible to have a discussion on this forum - ridiculous censoring by admin

Can't believe ye are advocating him. Again I only hope ye have no say in the running of clubs or county teams in Wicklow or we will continue to draw a blank

Despair

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 20/06/2017 18:30:00    2002704

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johnny magee is a great manager he has brought in a whole new 15 team you would say . Wicklow need to play in a 2nd tiered compettion they need more then 2 matches to play. I went to match the last day but i must say the wicklow supporters need to support this team better in leaque and championship it is a disgrace the amount of fans that go to the wicklow matches . Wicklow in my view are not far off in winning a few matches i hope i am right.

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 169 - 20/06/2017 19:11:22    2002726

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I'm not sure what it is like to be a Wicklow footballer but being a supporter is a bit like experiencing 'groundhog day' i.e. going through the same experience year after year without anything changing. Every June after Wicklow have had their two games in the championship; there is a discussion on here and every year for the last couple of years, the blame has been put on the manager. If this was the case, it would be easy to fix, change the manager but we all know that if we did change the manager, it would be the same story this time next year - failure to get out of division four and two games in the championship. Of course, there are people who don't want to accept this but this is the reality - why? Well, for a number of reasons. Primarily, it is down to how we run our gaelic games - the vast number of counties (85%) are professional at administrative, coaching and playing side all the way from underage , to club, to school and onto inter county level, in Wicklow we are operating in an amateur out of date sort of fashion. I know there are probably good bits and good people but overall it is not up to scratch. Also, maybe this is down to a lack of interest from people in the general who don't want to get involved at club, underage or county level but until there is a change at grass root levels and proper structure are put in place; nothing is going to change. Do I see it happening; no but on the other hand, I never thought Mick O'Dwyer would come to Wicklow so anything is possible but serious thought needs to be put in at club, player and county board level as things have to change on a number of levels or things will simply remain the same and people are voting with their feet.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1214 - 24/06/2017 13:23:15    2004283

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "I'm not sure what it is like to be a Wicklow footballer but being a supporter is a bit like experiencing 'groundhog day' i.e. going through the same experience year after year without anything changing. Every June after Wicklow have had their two games in the championship; there is a discussion on here and every year for the last couple of years, the blame has been put on the manager. If this was the case, it would be easy to fix, change the manager but we all know that if we did change the manager, it would be the same story this time next year - failure to get out of division four and two games in the championship. Of course, there are people who don't want to accept this but this is the reality - why? Well, for a number of reasons. Primarily, it is down to how we run our gaelic games - the vast number of counties (85%) are professional at administrative, coaching and playing side all the way from underage , to club, to school and onto inter county level, in Wicklow we are operating in an amateur out of date sort of fashion. I know there are probably good bits and good people but overall it is not up to scratch. Also, maybe this is down to a lack of interest from people in the general who don't want to get involved at club, underage or county level but until there is a change at grass root levels and proper structure are put in place; nothing is going to change. Do I see it happening; no but on the other hand, I never thought Mick O'Dwyer would come to Wicklow so anything is possible but serious thought needs to be put in at club, player and county board level as things have to change on a number of levels or things will simply remain the same and people are voting with their feet."
If there was a 2 tier competition we could have success like when mick o Dwyer was here but we don't so we will win noting . Mick oDwyer only won a 2 tier cup and never won anything else with wicklow.

hurlingnut (Wicklow) - Posts: 272 - 09/07/2017 14:26:47    2012956

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