National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Yo know the more I think about it, the more I think that having the Provincial championship in March and April as stand alone competitions could reinvigorate them.

There's a lot of negativity around them because the create the unfairness in the All Ireland.

They're also part of a wider tournament but don't necessarily provide the best prep for the business end of the championship.

The likes of Tyrone and Mayo have learned a lot about their teams at times going the qualifier route.

They get to try player's out in games their likely to win.

The Provincial championships are a weird change of pace to the season.

We start of with the league which throws up top games each week.

Then Bang we go from Dublin Mayo, Kerry Tyrone to Dublin Longford, Tyrone Derry, Donegal Fermanagh, Kerry Clare.

The games don't excite.

We know a bit from the leagues how these teams are going. There's no surprises.

It'd be interesting seeing teams first competitive outing of the season being in the Province. There could be some surprises. More chance of teams being caught on the hop.

Fans will have been crying out for a bit of action.

I think these Championships will retain their prestige. Kerry don't want Cork to win Munster, Dublin don't want Meath or Kildare to. Ulster and Connacht are properly competitive and therefore prestigious.

Provincial championship attendances are struggling, it might not be bad for them to shake things up a little.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 09/08/2019 18:47:41    2223160

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The provincial championships are going nowhere. Can we work within the confines of the known criteria?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 09/08/2019 19:27:59    2223171

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial championships are going nowhere. Can we work within the confines of the known criteria?"
They're going to March or April.

CPA and GPA, both represented on the fixtures review committee, want to decouple them from the All Ireland.

It'd be for their own good too. I honestly believe that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 09/08/2019 19:38:34    2223175

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial championships are going nowhere. Can we work within the confines of the known criteria?"
Looking for a job in Central Council, maybe ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 09/08/2019 20:20:36    2223184

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They're going to March or April.

CPA and GPA, both represented on the fixtures review committee, want to decouple them from the All Ireland.

It'd be for their own good too. I honestly believe that."
I don't disagree with the concept of decoupling the provincials from the All-Ireland Championship. There's nothing to suggest this is a possibility.

There is a fixture review committee. The GPA have suggested the Special Congress in October do not proceed with a Tier 2 until the work of the Fixture Review Committee is complete.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 09/08/2019 20:58:30    2223192

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They're going to March or April.

CPA and GPA, both represented on the fixtures review committee, want to decouple them from the All Ireland.

It'd be for their own good too. I honestly believe that."
They shouldn't go to early in year. Have all counties start all Ireland series and then have provincial knock out as another way for counties to get through to latter stages of all Ireland

Remove pre season January competitions no need for them

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1888 - 09/08/2019 21:11:52    2223197

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They shouldn't go to early in year. Have all counties start all Ireland series and then have provincial knock out as another way for counties to get through to latter stages of all Ireland

Remove pre season January competitions no need for them"
There is an easy enough way to do that actually.

2 groups of 8.

Top 4 to playoffs.

If a Provincial champion doesn't make it to the quarterfinals they play 1 of the 4th placed teams in a preliminary quarterfinal.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 09/08/2019 21:22:16    2223201

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There is no return to straight knockout. There is no indication of the provincial championships being moved or decoupled from the All-Ireland Championship.

Someone has made a good suggestion that a double elimination at the Final 8 Stage should replace the Super 8 group stage. Why not embrace that?

The Super 8s was agreed on a trial basis. A Tier 2 can be trialled as well. Congress is always there to revert if needs be. It's been done before.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 09/08/2019 22:04:11    2223222

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There is an easy enough way to do that actually.

2 groups of 8.

Top 4 to playoffs.

If a Provincial champion doesn't make it to the quarterfinals they play 1 of the 4th placed teams in a preliminary quarterfinal."
I like when Prov Champs who advance in the group as well can double up and get a bye (say 12 from the groups and 4 Champs, so a double up would get a bye in the Rd of 16).

In your example there, teams that advance from the groups go to the QFs - that applies to Prov Champs and non-Champs alike - no benefit for Champs - although your non advancing Champs getting a Playoff game versus 4th makes sense.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 10/08/2019 01:45:37    2223257

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Why don't they run the league and championship together like the premiership and FA cup in England and change the league from 7 games to 14 games so everyone has a home and away game against eachother in their division with league finals for divisions 2/3 and 4 in crokepark.

The championship goes back to straight knockout with an open draw , first team out of the hat gets home advantage with only the semifinals and final played in crokepark.

The league and championship could be run off from the start of April to the end of August which would give a defined season with decent weather and would keep everyone interested with a realistic chance of winning something whether it be a league final and promotion in the lower divisions or championship final.

That would leave at most 19 games for 2 teams and at least 15 games for everyone else and it leaves 6 months for clubs and a month where everything is shut down say the month of January.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 12198 - 10/08/2019 08:49:01    2223273

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Replying To omahant:  "I like when Prov Champs who advance in the group as well can double up and get a bye (say 12 from the groups and 4 Champs, so a double up would get a bye in the Rd of 16).

In your example there, teams that advance from the groups go to the QFs - that applies to Prov Champs and non-Champs alike - no benefit for Champs - although your non advancing Champs getting a Playoff game versus 4th makes sense."
Getting a bye can be counter productive. Winning's a habit and teams can lose momentum by not playing.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 413 - 10/08/2019 13:42:50    2223361

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Start League mid Jan and finish St Patrick's day

Div 1 - 4 groups of 5 - open draw - min 4 matches plus semis, final and relegation play offs
Div 2 - 2 groups of 6 - open draw - min 5 matches plus final

Start Provincial in April - 2-3 matches per county

A and B in each province - number of A teams in each province decided by last years league (max 15 teams in A) - super 8 game format

Connacht - 3A teams and 3 in B, Munster same
Leinster - 3A teams and 8 in B
Ulster - 6A teams and 3 in B

Provincial A and B finals on June Bank holiday

All Ireland A - Start July

A champ Round 1 - provincial A group losers (7 teams) Div 2 league winner - play off
B Champ Round 1 - provincial group losers 8 teams

A Champ Round 2 - Provincial B winners V Round1 winners
B Champ Round 2 - round 1 winners v losing provincial b finalists

A Champ Round 3 - Round 2 winners v Provincial Runner Up
B champ round 3 - Round 2 winners v provincial B champions

A champ Q finals - round 3 winners v Provincial A Champions
B champ Semi finals - round 3 winners

A champ semis - q final winners
B champ final

a final - end of September


Each county has min 10 games in season split from January to August

County games played every 3 weeks - club championships played week after county match's
Rest weekend before county match

Provincial club championship start in october and if counties haven't played their own championship over the weekends set aside for it then tough - your county doesn't get to enter provincial club championships

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 805 - 10/08/2019 13:53:16    2223370

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@tiraw -
What ? &*^! - maybe just beat Dubs this wkd !!

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 10/08/2019 18:22:50    2223454

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Why don't they run the league and championship together like the premiership and FA cup in England and change the league from 7 games to 14 games so everyone has a home and away game against eachother in their division with league finals for divisions 2/3 and 4 in crokepark.

The championship goes back to straight knockout with an open draw , first team out of the hat gets home advantage with only the semifinals and final played in crokepark.

The league and championship could be run off from the start of April to the end of August which would give a defined season with decent weather and would keep everyone interested with a realistic chance of winning something whether it be a league final and promotion in the lower divisions or championship final.

That would leave at most 19 games for 2 teams and at least 15 games for everyone else and it leaves 6 months for clubs and a month where everything is shut down say the month of January."
7 League games + 5 games in a straight knockout All-Ireland gives us 12 games (16 if double-elimination is used for the opening rounds like in Down). Run it from April/June to July/August. February - March/April and August/September - December for clubs/schools/colleges only. The other option is to spread League games across the year.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 11/08/2019 02:40:22    2223770

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Lads changing the championship at this stage is just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. If you want a better championship you need to focus on funding. It will probably take 20 years if they implemented a fair financial structure but if the status quo remains the gap will only widen.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 11/08/2019 05:48:57    2223778

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "7 League games + 5 games in a straight knockout All-Ireland gives us 12 games (16 if double-elimination is used for the opening rounds like in Down). Run it from April/June to July/August. February - March/April and August/September - December for clubs/schools/colleges only. The other option is to spread League games across the year."
I like the idea of February to March for club championship.

There's a lot to like about your solution and if the GAA were to go for it, it would be a huge improvement on what we have currently.

My personal preference would be that the primary competition should be the one where teams play their most games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 11/08/2019 09:28:35    2223818

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "7 League games + 5 games in a straight knockout All-Ireland gives us 12 games (16 if double-elimination is used for the opening rounds like in Down). Run it from April/June to July/August. February - March/April and August/September - December for clubs/schools/colleges only. The other option is to spread League games across the year."
I'd like 14 games in the league Hawkeye (a home and away System ) it would be fair on everyone and it would bring on the weaker teams through having more games.

and no final for division 1.

It would be a nice few games week in week out but it would give managers a chance to build their squads.

Now of course the extra games would cost extra cash but the GAA can get a better tv deal and pass that money on to the teams.

I like your idea of December for schools and colleges.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 12198 - 11/08/2019 09:45:27    2223822

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I like the idea of February to March for club championship.

There's a lot to like about your solution and if the GAA were to go for it, it would be a huge improvement on what we have currently.

My personal preference would be that the primary competition should be the one where teams play their most games."
I do think League games need to be spread out across the year but none of this will happen while the provincials exist.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 11/08/2019 14:19:26    2223963

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I do think League games need to be spread out across the year but none of this will happen while the provincials exist."
Provincial championships need to stay and league games can still be spread through the year with the provincial championships being kept.

Replays need to be got rid of in nearly all cases. Stronger sanctions for counties who stop county players not be involved in club games. And stronger sanctions for counties who postpone club championship due to players involved in inter county

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1888 - 11/08/2019 15:18:01    2223995

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Provincial championships need to stay and league games can still be spread through the year with the provincial championships being kept.

Replays need to be got rid of in nearly all cases. Stronger sanctions for counties who stop county players not be involved in club games. And stronger sanctions for counties who postpone club championship due to players involved in inter county"
Like the sanctions they had for breaking the training ban. They made an example of one easy target yet listened to the dog ate my homework excuse about cultural visits to France.
Let's see how long the sanctions for black cards last in the run up to the All Ireland.
I see your point but there are no rules or sanctions in the GAA.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1072 - 12/08/2019 19:59:41    2224869

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