National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA should consider Ciaran Whelan's Super 10 suggestion, a Tier 2 Championship and a Tier 3 Championship.

Qualifier Round 1:
14, 15 or 16 highest league placed non provincial finalists.

Qualifier Round 2:
4 Provincial Runners-up and 8 Round 1 winners. (12 teams)

Super 10:
4 Provincial winners and 6 Round 2 winners. 2 home games each. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd placed teams into quarter-finals.

Tier 2 Championship:
8 Round 1 losers straight into quarter-finals. Tier 2 Winner guaranteed a Qualifier Round 1 spot in the following year.

Tier 3 Championship:
8 lowest placed league teams excluded from the qualifiers. Double elimination format. Tier 3 winner also guaranteed a Qualifier Round 1 spot in the following year.

Every team is guaranteed at least 3 games. Guarantee of a qualifier spot gives an incentive to lower tier progression. A team could set themselves a target of winning Tier 3, Tier 2 and then challenging for a provincial title and making the Super 10."
I am very against there ever being a championship competition for the bottom 8 teams ever again.

The Tommy Murphy Cup was a competition for losers.

It's impossible to generate prestige for such a competition.

There's no need to exclude them from the competition anyway. It doesn't save much time.

I don't like the top 10 competition either truth be told.

6 from 10 progressing at that stage of the competition isn't really a high bar being created.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 04/08/2019 13:10:24    2220568

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The split should occur after the qualifiers if we're going down this road. The 4 Provincial champions and 4 Qualifiers advance to the Senior championship which is single or double-elimination. The remaining 24 teams advance to the Senior B championship which is single-elimination.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 04/08/2019 14:42:53    2220612

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I am very against there ever being a championship competition for the bottom 8 teams ever again.

The Tommy Murphy Cup was a competition for losers.

It's impossible to generate prestige for such a competition.

There's no need to exclude them from the competition anyway. It doesn't save much time.

I don't like the top 10 competition either truth be told.

6 from 10 progressing at that stage of the competition isn't really a high bar being created."
That was a different circumstance. If they had granted the TMC winner of that time a qualifier spot in the following year, the competition would have had a better chance of becoming established.

I've seen the joy of Kerry winning the Christy Ring. Waterford footballers could target winning a TMC at their level. The winner would actually achieve the level required to be part of the qualifiers rather than obtaining it by default. Setting a standard is not a bad thing. There is still the possibility of a big provincial game. It a halfway house solution that is right up the GAA's street.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 04/08/2019 16:19:06    2220651

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What the super 8s has shown is that there are only a few teams that can compete at the very top.

Look at Wicklow. Hurlers are in Division 2. We are no longer a football county.

Wexford are the same. That Gavin news is just a publicity stunt. The players are not there.

Bring in a 2nd tier and do it properly.

The delusion from some counties, including my own, is amazing and dangerous. The gap is getting wider.

sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2705 - 04/08/2019 19:30:44    2220791

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What do you make of this ? Does it give all teams a fair chance of success ?

Top 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (1A & 1B) - 4 games per team - each top 3 to AI Tier 1 KO QFs - two 2nds host two other group 3rds; two 1sts host two other group (letter, AvB) 'Middle 10' 1sts.

Middle 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (2A & 2B) - 4 games per team - each group winner to AI Tier 1 KO QFs.
Also, each 2nd and 3rd (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Top 10) to strong AI Tier 2 KO QFs - two 4ths host two other group 3rds; two 2nds host two other group 5ths - Tier 2 Finalists (and two group winners) go up or stay in the Top 10 the following year.

Lower 12 Fixed Draw - 4 local groups of 3 (3A, 3B, 3C & 3D) - 4 games per team (double rd) - each group top 2 (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Middle 10) to 12-team AI Tier 3 KO - two 4ths and 'best two of four' 1sts get byes and host QFs - two other 1sts and two 5ths host four 2nds in the QF Playoff Rd - Tier 3 Semi Finalists go up or stay in the Middle 10 the following year.

Play Prov Championships KO separately and early in the year (before the AI group stage above.)

Straight forward and understandable.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 08/08/2019 12:10:16    2222638

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Replying To omahant:  "What do you make of this ? Does it give all teams a fair chance of success ?

Top 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (1A & 1B) - 4 games per team - each top 3 to AI Tier 1 KO QFs - two 2nds host two other group 3rds; two 1sts host two other group (letter, AvB) 'Middle 10' 1sts.

Middle 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (2A & 2B) - 4 games per team - each group winner to AI Tier 1 KO QFs.
Also, each 2nd and 3rd (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Top 10) to strong AI Tier 2 KO QFs - two 4ths host two other group 3rds; two 2nds host two other group 5ths - Tier 2 Finalists (and two group winners) go up or stay in the Top 10 the following year.

Lower 12 Fixed Draw - 4 local groups of 3 (3A, 3B, 3C & 3D) - 4 games per team (double rd) - each group top 2 (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Middle 10) to 12-team AI Tier 3 KO - two 4ths and 'best two of four' 1sts get byes and host QFs - two other 1sts and two 5ths host four 2nds in the QF Playoff Rd - Tier 3 Semi Finalists go up or stay in the Middle 10 the following year.

Play Prov Championships KO separately and early in the year (before the AI group stage above.)

Straight forward and understandable."
Unrealistic.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 08/08/2019 13:34:06    2222664

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The idea of changing the championship in a tiered competition only makes sense if you are interested in the financial aspects only -which is obviously the case. A two tier or three system will make the weaker counties weaker. Everyone should have the chance to compete in the top competition. In effect the changes is a bit like what happened in the past with seeding. Even in the top 8 we had results of 10+ points difference. For me the best change would be to get rid of the provincial championship.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2207 - 08/08/2019 13:54:22    2222672

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Replying To omahant:  "What do you make of this ? Does it give all teams a fair chance of success ?

Top 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (1A & 1B) - 4 games per team - each top 3 to AI Tier 1 KO QFs - two 2nds host two other group 3rds; two 1sts host two other group (letter, AvB) 'Middle 10' 1sts.

Middle 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 (2A & 2B) - 4 games per team - each group winner to AI Tier 1 KO QFs.
Also, each 2nd and 3rd (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Top 10) to strong AI Tier 2 KO QFs - two 4ths host two other group 3rds; two 2nds host two other group 5ths - Tier 2 Finalists (and two group winners) go up or stay in the Top 10 the following year.

Lower 12 Fixed Draw - 4 local groups of 3 (3A, 3B, 3C & 3D) - 4 games per team (double rd) - each group top 2 (as well as each 4th and 5th from the Middle 10) to 12-team AI Tier 3 KO - two 4ths and 'best two of four' 1sts get byes and host QFs - two other 1sts and two 5ths host four 2nds in the QF Playoff Rd - Tier 3 Semi Finalists go up or stay in the Middle 10 the following year.

Play Prov Championships KO separately and early in the year (before the AI group stage above.)

Straight forward and understandable."
As time goes on I think it's hard to have more than 2 tiers.

With a third tier teams are no longer just 1 step away from the big time.

It could be something that would hurt the development of the game potentially in 3rd tier counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 08/08/2019 14:02:35    2222676

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Just like tiers on a wedding cake. The top tiers get exposed, presented and viewed on the day, commented on and savoured. The bottom tiers get cut up in little squares, put in boxes, sent out to guests and put in a drawer never to see the light of day again. Found familiar ?

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1078 - 08/08/2019 14:17:26    2222687

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Replying To browncows:  "The idea of changing the championship in a tiered competition only makes sense if you are interested in the financial aspects only -which is obviously the case. A two tier or three system will make the weaker counties weaker. Everyone should have the chance to compete in the top competition. In effect the changes is a bit like what happened in the past with seeding. Even in the top 8 we had results of 10+ points difference. For me the best change would be to get rid of the provincial championship."
I don't think a 2 tier system done properly would make the weak weaker necessarily.

If there's a top quality main All Ireland competition there I think it can add prestige to the second competition as the entry route to the competition.

I think any split would have to be right down the middle.

16 and 16.

You mess around and have too few in the top competition and it's elitist (the Super 8s), you have too few in the bottom tier and the standard is poor and the competition lacks prestige (the old Tommy Murphy Cup).

I think Antrim in a second tier competition, organised properly getting 7 tough championship games in May to August and potential playoffs afterwards could really bring them on.

A potential 7 game schedule for Antrim in tier 2 could be:

Down, Derry, Tipperary, Louth, Limerick, Wexford, London

That'd be an interesting program of games for us.

There would have to be the right flow of teams between tiers. I'd say 3 up 3 down would work.

In terms of how the latter stages would be structured.

Top 2 from each group would go into Championship 2 semifinals

3rd and 4th Place in each would go to Promotion quarterfinals

The Losing Championship 2 semifinalists would drop into the promotion playoff semifinals to play the winning promotion quarterfinalists.

The Championship finalists and the winner of the promotion final go up.

4 teams would be in the running for the championship after the group stage, with another 4 teams still getting a chance at the 3rd promotion spot.

It'd keep the competition competitive, whilst still keeping a good number of teams interested until the end of the group stage.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 08/08/2019 14:29:21    2222697

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Replying To Canuck:  "Just like tiers on a wedding cake. The top tiers get exposed, presented and viewed on the day, commented on and savoured. The bottom tiers get cut up in little squares, put in boxes, sent out to guests and put in a drawer never to see the light of day again. Found familiar ?"
I don't think it'd get great coverage either.

I think it'd produce good quality games for teams though to develop.

Even within the top tier the Antrims and Waterfords of this world get little coverage.

I do think that the latter stages of these competitions, if played at the same time as the latter stages of the main championship could see them get a little more coverage, with fewer games around.

There's stories there, all the teams will have good seasons to be in contention.

I think the status quo is failing lower league teams and something needs to be done to improve their players season.

Playing preseason in December and January then 7 or 8 games in February and March but then only being guaranteed 2 games in the height of the season isn't good enough.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 08/08/2019 15:14:24    2222709

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There's different tiers in every sport from ping pong to soccer and everything inbetween so what's so absurd about this idea ....What's pathetic as thread states is dublin having an u20 team that would beat half the countries senior teams yes there is different levels of standard and a multi tier system is the most logical thing but you always having people having some romantic fantasy that's causing team to be humiliated

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 08/08/2019 18:43:36    2222772

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Look the reality is Waterford, Kilkenny and some other counties should not be in any tier. Make them put all their resources in under age starting at minor. When they have success ( not necessary winning an All-Ireland ) measured by achieving competitiveness with the top counties then move up to under 20 and subsequently to senior. The league is useless as a promotional tool for us while our minors and under 20's are getting beat by a cricket score. These are the same players down the road who are expected to have confidence playing Kerry and Cork in Munster and Down or Derry in the losers group. They are set up to be losers as they know nothing else.
We beat Kerry a few years ago in a Munster under 21 final but most of the best players went to hurling. (Brick and Shane Walsh). The GAA should have been all over this and put all the resources possible to move the achievement on to the next stage.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1078 - 08/08/2019 19:27:55    2222784

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Replying To Hitnhurl:  "There's different tiers in every sport from ping pong to soccer and everything inbetween so what's so absurd about this idea ....What's pathetic as thread states is dublin having an u20 team that would beat half the countries senior teams yes there is different levels of standard and a multi tier system is the most logical thing but you always having people having some romantic fantasy that's causing team to be humiliated"
Are you aware that your own county beat their u20 team?. If you were having 'multi tier system' you would Dublin in tier 1 by themselves!! The GAA was never about 'romantic fantasy'. Their is a stronger point be made to abolish the Provincial but money gets in the way.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2207 - 08/08/2019 21:39:26    2222835

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I have a solution for a Tier 2 Championship. It promotes 2 counties to their provincial championship. The Tier 2 Championship winner enters the Qualifiers of the same year.

Tier 2 Championship;
West Group: 2 Munster and 2 Connaught. Top 2 into West semi-final, with winner promoted to their province.
East Group: 3 Leinster and 1 Ulster. Top 2 into East semi-final, with winner promoted to their province.

Tier 2 Final: West semi-final winner v East semi-final winner. Winner enters All-Ireland Qualifiers.

Example:
West: Limerick, Leitrim Waterford, London.
East: Carlow, Antrim, Wexford, Wicklow.

West semi-final: Limerick v Leitrim. Limerick win. Limerick promoted to Munster Championship of the following year.
East semi-final: Carlow v Antrim. Carlow win. Carlow promoted to Leinster Championship of the following year.

Tier 2 Final: Limerick v Carlow. Carlow win. Carlow enter the All-Ireland Qualifiers of the current year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 08/08/2019 21:53:32    2222839

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Replying To Whammo86:  "As time goes on I think it's hard to have more than 2 tiers.

With a third tier teams are no longer just 1 step away from the big time.

It could be something that would hurt the development of the game potentially in 3rd tier counties."
To address your concern - I give 2 Tier 1 KO berths to the Middle 10 and 6 to the Top 10. So, from the start 20 teams have a shot at Sam and the Lower 12 are only one step behind in a given year.

I made it Top 10 and Middle 10 to target more balanced/attractive pairings - in lieu of 4 equal strength groups of 5 with top 2 from each going thru. Also, why not have a stronger Tier 2 - mix of Div 2 and even Div 1 teams - worth winning to be in Top 10 ?

The Middle 10 will end up in a KO at any of the three Tiers (dog fight) - and the Top 10 are guaranteed entry to the Tier 1 or 2 AI KO.

Finally, my round robin play is now conventional and recognisable - and there are no dead rubbers in the Top/Middle 20 (ok, yes in bottom of Lower 12).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 09/08/2019 00:59:56    2222899

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think a 2 tier system done properly would make the weak weaker necessarily.

If there's a top quality main All Ireland competition there I think it can add prestige to the second competition as the entry route to the competition.

I think any split would have to be right down the middle.

16 and 16.

You mess around and have too few in the top competition and it's elitist (the Super 8s), you have too few in the bottom tier and the standard is poor and the competition lacks prestige (the old Tommy Murphy Cup).

I think Antrim in a second tier competition, organised properly getting 7 tough championship games in May to August and potential playoffs afterwards could really bring them on.

A potential 7 game schedule for Antrim in tier 2 could be:

Down, Derry, Tipperary, Louth, Limerick, Wexford, London

That'd be an interesting program of games for us.

There would have to be the right flow of teams between tiers. I'd say 3 up 3 down would work.

In terms of how the latter stages would be structured.

Top 2 from each group would go into Championship 2 semifinals

3rd and 4th Place in each would go to Promotion quarterfinals

The Losing Championship 2 semifinalists would drop into the promotion playoff semifinals to play the winning promotion quarterfinalists.

The Championship finalists and the winner of the promotion final go up.

4 teams would be in the running for the championship after the group stage, with another 4 teams still getting a chance at the 3rd promotion spot.

It'd keep the competition competitive, whilst still keeping a good number of teams interested until the end of the group stage."
I like that for Tier 2 - 8 of 16 in an old 'C Ring/ Aussie AFL' style KO - but Tier 1 needs more jazz ? - avoidance of similar intra-tier relegation playoffs maybe ? Or, have inter-tier playoffs, a la expanded Scottish SPFL ?

Btw - I liked your prior two-phase annual promo/rela idea - teams could move two tiers in a given year - after league and championship - then you could have three tiers - say, 11, 11, 10 - I like odd numbers to get even home/away schedule and allow for bye breaks.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 09/08/2019 01:30:44    2222901

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think it'd get great coverage either.

I think it'd produce good quality games for teams though to develop.

Even within the top tier the Antrims and Waterfords of this world get little coverage.

I do think that the latter stages of these competitions, if played at the same time as the latter stages of the main championship could see them get a little more coverage, with fewer games around.

There's stories there, all the teams will have good seasons to be in contention.

I think the status quo is failing lower league teams and something needs to be done to improve their players season.

Playing preseason in December and January then 7 or 8 games in February and March but then only being guaranteed 2 games in the height of the season isn't good enough."
You know - we bitch and moan- but what coverage does the BBC extend to League 1 ? To your Antrim/Waterford point - I think the GAA will have to go the way of Rugby Union - the dam will fonally give way - we will have to lump - Professionalism - I think, no ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 09/08/2019 02:04:35    2222904

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Replying To omahant:  "You know - we bitch and moan- but what coverage does the BBC extend to League 1 ? To your Antrim/Waterford point - I think the GAA will have to go the way of Rugby Union - the dam will fonally give way - we will have to lump - Professionalism - I think, no ?"
Sky airs games from Leagues 1 and 2.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 09/08/2019 14:52:32    2223056

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Replying To browncows:  "Are you aware that your own county beat their u20 team?. If you were having 'multi tier system' you would Dublin in tier 1 by themselves!! The GAA was never about 'romantic fantasy'. Their is a stronger point be made to abolish the Provincial but money gets in the way."
I know my county u20s beat them I said "half the countries senior teams " and that half have no hope of ever EVER winning Sam if things stay same tense reason for multi tier system....
And yes there is a romantic fantasy amoung certain people in public,media especially local media who try to hold on to a far fetched reality at the expense of the progress of the game

Hitnhurl (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 09/08/2019 15:31:35    2223078

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