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Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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they are not going to go for this i discussed this before only option 2nd tiered

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 169 - 18/09/2019 20:07:15    2237314

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they should try it out to see does it work no one will lose anything time for weaker teams to try to win another cup they will never win sam

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 169 - 18/09/2019 20:30:54    2237326

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The only option is Horan's awful plan. It will fail like the Tommy Murphy Cup and we'll go back to a single tier championship.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 18/09/2019 20:46:33    2237333

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Horan has killed off any legitimate discussion of a tiered championship by pushing his awful proposal through. Now we're back to single tier championship reforms.

The provincials need to be separated from the All-Ireland series. I'm leaning towards the format used by Kildare.

32 teams play in the first round after which all 32 teams will go into four groups of four with two winners and two losers from the opening round in each of those groups.

Round 1

Galway v Meath
Tyrone v Louth
Antrim v London
Wicklow v Dublin
Limerick v Tipperary
Clare v Westmeath
Cavan v Armagh
Mayo v Cork
Sligo v Carlow
Laois v Derry
Offaly v Kerry
Longford v Down
Leitrim v Donegal
Wexford v Roscommon
Waterford v Fermanagh
Kildare v Monaghan

Group Stage

Single or double round-robin.

1st and 2nd - Round of 16
3rd and 4th - Eliminated

Group A

Roscommon
Laois
Westmeath
Wexford

Group B

Dublin
Cavan
Waterford
Wicklow

Group C

Leitrim
Carlow
Limerick
London

Group D

Kerry
Galway
Cork
Sligo

Group E

Tyrone
Longford
Offaly
Antrim

Group F

Kildare
Clare
Down
Tipperary

Group G

Mayo
Monaghan
Meath
Armagh

Group H

Donegal
Fermanagh
Louth
Derry

Round of 16

The first-placed teams in each group get home advantage for this round.

Roscommon v Fermanagh
Donegal v Laois
Kerry v Longford
Tyrone v Galway
Dublin v Monaghan
Mayo v Cavan
Leitrim v Clare
Kildare v Carlow

Quarter-Finals

Neutral venues are used for this round.

Roscommon v Donegal (Croke Park or St Tiernach's Park, Clones)
Kerry v Tyrone (Croke Park)
Dublin v Mayo (Semple Stadium)
Clare v Kildare (Semple Stadium)

Semi-Finals

Donegal v Kerry
Dublin v Kildare

Final

Kerry v Dublin"
Best proposal I have seen...imaginative and progressive. The current GAA proposal could throw counties like Cork, Down and Derry into a lower grade competition.

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 551 - 19/09/2019 09:42:34    2237466

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Replying To Rockies:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Horan has killed off any legitimate discussion of a tiered championship by pushing his awful proposal through. Now we're back to single tier championship reforms.

The provincials need to be separated from the All-Ireland series. I'm leaning towards the format used by Kildare.

32 teams play in the first round after which all 32 teams will go into four groups of four with two winners and two losers from the opening round in each of those groups.

Round 1

Galway v Meath
Tyrone v Louth
Antrim v London
Wicklow v Dublin
Limerick v Tipperary
Clare v Westmeath
Cavan v Armagh
Mayo v Cork
Sligo v Carlow
Laois v Derry
Offaly v Kerry
Longford v Down
Leitrim v Donegal
Wexford v Roscommon
Waterford v Fermanagh
Kildare v Monaghan

Group Stage

Single or double round-robin.

1st and 2nd - Round of 16
3rd and 4th - Eliminated

Group A

Roscommon
Laois
Westmeath
Wexford

Group B

Dublin
Cavan
Waterford
Wicklow

Group C

Leitrim
Carlow
Limerick
London

Group D

Kerry
Galway
Cork
Sligo

Group E

Tyrone
Longford
Offaly
Antrim

Group F

Kildare
Clare
Down
Tipperary

Group G

Mayo
Monaghan
Meath
Armagh

Group H

Donegal
Fermanagh
Louth
Derry

Round of 16

The first-placed teams in each group get home advantage for this round.

Roscommon v Fermanagh
Donegal v Laois
Kerry v Longford
Tyrone v Galway
Dublin v Monaghan
Mayo v Cavan
Leitrim v Clare
Kildare v Carlow

Quarter-Finals

Neutral venues are used for this round.

Roscommon v Donegal (Croke Park or St Tiernach's Park, Clones)
Kerry v Tyrone (Croke Park)
Dublin v Mayo (Semple Stadium)
Clare v Kildare (Semple Stadium)

Semi-Finals

Donegal v Kerry
Dublin v Kildare

Final

Kerry v Dublin"
Best proposal I have seen...imaginative and progressive. The current GAA proposal could throw counties like Cork, Down and Derry into a lower grade competition."
It gives each county a minimum of 4 games (7 if the group stage is double round robin). Max of 8 - 11 games. Another option is cross group games. Used by Leinster for the O'Byrne Cup. For example, the Group A teams play Group E teams.

Offaly v Longford
Laois v Roscommon
Tyrone v Antrim
Wexford v Westmeath

1 extra games which leaves us with a total of 5 before the Knockout stage.

I'd even add in bonus points for teams who score over 15 points.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 19/09/2019 10:41:32    2237484

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Great simple proposal above, however the provinces are unlikely to support the provincial championships becoming meaningless, so if there was some way of having some incentive for the provincial champions whereby it remains relevant.

The key thing in any new fixtures set up is that the intercounty season needs to be condensed, i.e. the length of time in the season that players are available for their clubs needs to increase.

It takes far too long for the provincial championships to be played.

The super 8's has 3 rounds played over 4 weeks, but the connacht and munster football also have 3 rounds but it takes 7 weeks to play them. Ridiculous time wasting. In fairness the hurling championship is more condensed.

Football championship could be played quite easily between June and August if organised correctly.
In fact under a group of 4 system 2020 could look like:
Seeding Round - May 30th
Round 1 - June 7th
Round 2 - June 14th
Round 3 - June 21st
Last 16 - July 5th
Quarter Finals - July 19th
Semi final - August 2nd
Final - August 16th

That way, Championship starts of May 30th and finishes on August 16th.
This year its started May 11th and finished (without replay) on Sept 1st.

Now a whole extra 5 weeks is freed up for club games.

890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1215 - 19/09/2019 12:23:22    2237516

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Replying To 890202:  "Great simple proposal above, however the provinces are unlikely to support the provincial championships becoming meaningless, so if there was some way of having some incentive for the provincial champions whereby it remains relevant.

The key thing in any new fixtures set up is that the intercounty season needs to be condensed, i.e. the length of time in the season that players are available for their clubs needs to increase.

It takes far too long for the provincial championships to be played.

The super 8's has 3 rounds played over 4 weeks, but the connacht and munster football also have 3 rounds but it takes 7 weeks to play them. Ridiculous time wasting. In fairness the hurling championship is more condensed.

Football championship could be played quite easily between June and August if organised correctly.
In fact under a group of 4 system 2020 could look like:
Seeding Round - May 30th
Round 1 - June 7th
Round 2 - June 14th
Round 3 - June 21st
Last 16 - July 5th
Quarter Finals - July 19th
Semi final - August 2nd
Final - August 16th

That way, Championship starts of May 30th and finishes on August 16th.
This year its started May 11th and finished (without replay) on Sept 1st.

Now a whole extra 5 weeks is freed up for club games."
The provincials should replace the O'Byrne Cup. They are one of the biggest obstacles to reform but you're right. The provinces won't give up their power which is why we're getting Goran's Tommy Murphy 2.0.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 19/09/2019 12:34:03    2237522

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the 2nd tiered compettion is the only option if the gaa give the winners a place in the quarter finals the foloowing year when they win it . i wrote about a championship leaque style idead but was laughed at on here . the weaker teams just wont say how weak they are . the gaa are trying to do their best but the answer on here is always no no no . wicklow gaa really want a 2nd tiered championship it has to happen in my view

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 169 - 19/09/2019 17:45:22    2237635

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Replying To lor12:  "the 2nd tiered compettion is the only option if the gaa give the winners a place in the quarter finals the foloowing year when they win it . i wrote about a championship leaque style idead but was laughed at on here . the weaker teams just wont say how weak they are . the gaa are trying to do their best but the answer on here is always no no no . wicklow gaa really want a 2nd tiered championship it has to happen in my view"
I think there has to be a tiered championship.

I think there also and probably more importantly has to be a better top tier to aspire to.

A tier 2 championship itself probably has little prestige-why the Tommy Murphy Cup failed.

It could have prestige if it means advancement to a proper tier 1 the following season.

That proper tier 1 has to be a somewhat league based competition.

There has to be a proper relegation and promotion system.

If there was two tiers of 16 each, 3 up and 3 down would mean that there's a good flow moving between grades.

Every 2 seasons 19 different teams will have played top tier.

Most teams would aspire to get to that level.

Say Teams like Longford and Antrim getting promoted, they would get a 7 game program of games against the top teams the next year.

That's more top championship action Antrim gets in 5 seasons of football.

A 2 tier system doesn't have to be a case of the weaker teams losing out. It can overall benefit everyone.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 19/09/2019 19:10:44    2237653

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I think Longford would rather play 5 games against teams of various strengths than play in a second tier championship which won't generate any interest among players or fans. Wicklow should be in a third tier championship if we're going down this road.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 19/09/2019 19:16:11    2237655

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I think Longford would rather play 5 games against teams of various strengths than play in a second tier championship which won't generate any interest among players or fans. Wicklow should be in a third tier championship if we're going down this road."
No team would be condemned to a 2nd tier indefinitely.

Longford would absolutely be a team challenging for a second tier/promotion.

The sort of schedule they'd have in a tier 1 would be say:

Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal, Meath, Galway, Laois, Armagh

That'd be a quality season for them.

There's a big difference between a 2 tier system and a 3 tier system.

A team ending up in tier 3 could be 2 seasons away from the top tier for a prolonged period of time.

It could kill the code in that county.

In a 2 tier system a county with a good crop coming through can win promotion from tier 2 and be in the big time mixing it with the best the very next season.

There's a closeness to the top.

It's hard to have more than 2 or 3 meaningful games for teams in a single tier system.

Your proposal is probably as good as any 1 tier system.

Team still only have 3 proper games, even then a team can be out after 2 real games.

The first round is just a bit weird, there's not really enough at stake for it to be meaningful in my opinion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 19/09/2019 20:22:25    2237669

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Replying To Whammo86:  "No team would be condemned to a 2nd tier indefinitely.

Longford would absolutely be a team challenging for a second tier/promotion.

The sort of schedule they'd have in a tier 1 would be say:

Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal, Meath, Galway, Laois, Armagh

That'd be a quality season for them.

There's a big difference between a 2 tier system and a 3 tier system.

A team ending up in tier 3 could be 2 seasons away from the top tier for a prolonged period of time.

It could kill the code in that county.

In a 2 tier system a county with a good crop coming through can win promotion from tier 2 and be in the big time mixing it with the best the very next season.

There's a closeness to the top.

It's hard to have more than 2 or 3 meaningful games for teams in a single tier system.

Your proposal is probably as good as any 1 tier system.

Team still only have 3 proper games, even then a team can be out after 2 real games.

The first round is just a bit weird, there's not really enough at stake for it to be meaningful in my opinion."
The first round can be replaced with an open draw. I like it. It acts as a nice opener to the championship. A double round-robin gives teams at least 6 or 7 games a year. Cross group games is another option to increase the number of games. A lot of teams in Tier 2 will never be in contention for promotion to Tier 1. It will the code in weaker counties at inter-county level in counties like Limerick and Wexford. It Kieran Donaghy proposed a similar proposal to yours and it gained no traction at all.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 19/09/2019 21:48:05    2237693

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All outgoing GAA President's & Ard Stiurothoir's obsessed with leaving their mark or "legacy" & this proposal is another one of them. Instead of leadership, we have dictatorship, the whole smokescreen of inviting in the CPA to work with the fixtures group & then ploughing ahead with a vote at a special Congress for the Tier 2 proposal, instead of letting the fixtures scheduling committee finalise & publish their report first. It will be voted through at Congress as they don't like to be seen voting down the top table departees.
Once they have a Tier 2 in place, those counties will slip into even further oblivion than present & the attraction of playing Inter County will wane as will sponsorship in those counties. After the initial honeymoon year it will go off the radar as it will all revolve around the elite counties. Another inter county competition increasing the number of games means less game time again for club players, at no stage will you hear this mentioned by the proposer.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1072 - 19/09/2019 21:56:33    2237695

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Replying To moc.dna:  "All outgoing GAA President's & Ard Stiurothoir's obsessed with leaving their mark or "legacy" & this proposal is another one of them. Instead of leadership, we have dictatorship, the whole smokescreen of inviting in the CPA to work with the fixtures group & then ploughing ahead with a vote at a special Congress for the Tier 2 proposal, instead of letting the fixtures scheduling committee finalise & publish their report first. It will be voted through at Congress as they don't like to be seen voting down the top table departees.
Once they have a Tier 2 in place, those counties will slip into even further oblivion than present & the attraction of playing Inter County will wane as will sponsorship in those counties. After the initial honeymoon year it will go off the radar as it will all revolve around the elite counties. Another inter county competition increasing the number of games means less game time again for club players, at no stage will you hear this mentioned by the proposer."
Could not agree more. In the case of my own county, I feel that the progress Cork have made, will be sabotaged and undermined by Horan and his cronies.

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 551 - 20/09/2019 00:09:22    2237728

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Whatever about the GAA president pushing it through for his own reasons, it's the delagates from the counties involved planning to vote in favour of it that makes no sense, it's like a turkey voting for Christmas. There are 18-19 counties this effects,( the 16 involved and the bottom couple of counties in division 2) anyone with sense would vote against. Here are some of the obvious problems with it:
1. A weaker Leinster county will have to win 3 games in a row to avoid being in the 2nd tier while in other provinces, 1 win will be enough.

2. If a county is promoted to division 2, they will spend the summer playing in a competition that is meaningless to them as they will be in the top tier championship the following year regardless - with the reverse being through for teams relegated from Division 2, playing in the top tier championship.

3. Weaker counties struggle to keep lads around for the whole year (or commit at all) why would they bother to play in this.

4. There will be horrendously poor crowds and equally poor media coverage(despite what the GAA says) which will kill the competition before it begins)

These are only a few concerns about it, there are plenty more, so how does it have the required support to be pushed through?

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1565 - 20/09/2019 07:19:37    2237740

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Worst President in memory?

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2481 - 20/09/2019 08:41:17    2237748

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The first round can be replaced with an open draw. I like it. It acts as a nice opener to the championship. A double round-robin gives teams at least 6 or 7 games a year. Cross group games is another option to increase the number of games. A lot of teams in Tier 2 will never be in contention for promotion to Tier 1. It will the code in weaker counties at inter-county level in counties like Limerick and Wexford. It Kieran Donaghy proposed a similar proposal to yours and it gained no traction at all."
Ok, the GPA had a similar proposal to yours a few years ago and it was thrown out.

I'd a friend working in Croke Park at the time.

The GAA don't particularly want huge mismatches outside Provincial championships.

Leitrim Mayo, Tyrone Antrim within a Provincial championship, with the element of local pride at stake and shorter travel distances for fans they can handle.

They actively don't want more mismatches that no ones going to bother going to.

It's hard to fit NFL, Provincials and separate group stage All Ireland into a season and work in club championship.

You're talking 8 rounds of league, 4 for Provincial championship and then a further 7 for the All Ireland. Granted they did contradict that by then initiating the super 8s.

Judging on Horan's comments part of the reason for the change now is to cut down the games needed, although as is typical of the GAA it still doesn't do a great job of that.

My personal opinion is that the league is a fair competitive tournament for all. The championship would be better served by adopting more of the league model.

The super 8s feels like an attempt to recreate division 1 in the summer, without having any of the other tiers.

Similarly the hurling format is similar to an old NHL format, except with 5 teams per section simply to create a Provincial element to the competition.

To have 8 teams only in the All Ireland football is too exclusive. Getting 16 teams in it feels right.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 20/09/2019 18:24:13    2237886

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Ok, the GPA had a similar proposal to yours a few years ago and it was thrown out.

I'd a friend working in Croke Park at the time.

The GAA don't particularly want huge mismatches outside Provincial championships.

Leitrim Mayo, Tyrone Antrim within a Provincial championship, with the element of local pride at stake and shorter travel distances for fans they can handle.

They actively don't want more mismatches that no ones going to bother going to.

It's hard to fit NFL, Provincials and separate group stage All Ireland into a season and work in club championship.

You're talking 8 rounds of league, 4 for Provincial championship and then a further 7 for the All Ireland. Granted they did contradict that by then initiating the super 8s.

Judging on Horan's comments part of the reason for the change now is to cut down the games needed, although as is typical of the GAA it still doesn't do a great job of that.

My personal opinion is that the league is a fair competitive tournament for all. The championship would be better served by adopting more of the league model.

The super 8s feels like an attempt to recreate division 1 in the summer, without having any of the other tiers.

Similarly the hurling format is similar to an old NHL format, except with 5 teams per section simply to create a Provincial element to the competition.

To have 8 teams only in the All Ireland football is too exclusive. Getting 16 teams in it feels right."
Bring the League forward and give it a lot attentio rather than making the Championship another League with 16 teams in each tier instead of 8. The Championship should have a similar format to the one which I've proposed. That would give teams at least 11 games against a mix of opponents in the best months of the year.

Or reduce the number of divisions in the League to three and run it off alongside the Provincials and All-Ireland series.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 20/09/2019 19:15:00    2237900

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To Rockies:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "Horan has killed off any legitimate discussion of a tiered championship by pushing his awful proposal through. Now we're back to single tier championship reforms.

The provincials need to be separated from the All-Ireland series. I'm leaning towards the format used by Kildare.

32 teams play in the first round after which all 32 teams will go into four groups of four with two winners and two losers from the opening round in each of those groups.

Round 1

Galway v Meath
Tyrone v Louth
Antrim v London
Wicklow v Dublin
Limerick v Tipperary
Clare v Westmeath
Cavan v Armagh
Mayo v Cork
Sligo v Carlow
Laois v Derry
Offaly v Kerry
Longford v Down
Leitrim v Donegal
Wexford v Roscommon
Waterford v Fermanagh
Kildare v Monaghan

Group Stage

Single or double round-robin.

1st and 2nd - Round of 16
3rd and 4th - Eliminated

Group A

Roscommon
Laois
Westmeath
Wexford

Group B

Dublin
Cavan
Waterford
Wicklow

Group C

Leitrim
Carlow
Limerick
London

Group D

Kerry
Galway
Cork
Sligo

Group E

Tyrone
Longford
Offaly
Antrim

Group F

Kildare
Clare
Down
Tipperary

Group G

Mayo
Monaghan
Meath
Armagh

Group H

Donegal
Fermanagh
Louth
Derry

Round of 16

The first-placed teams in each group get home advantage for this round.

Roscommon v Fermanagh
Donegal v Laois
Kerry v Longford
Tyrone v Galway
Dublin v Monaghan
Mayo v Cavan
Leitrim v Clare
Kildare v Carlow

Quarter-Finals

Neutral venues are used for this round.

Roscommon v Donegal (Croke Park or St Tiernach's Park, Clones)
Kerry v Tyrone (Croke Park)
Dublin v Mayo (Semple Stadium)
Clare v Kildare (Semple Stadium)

Semi-Finals

Donegal v Kerry
Dublin v Kildare

Final

Kerry v Dublin"
Best proposal I have seen...imaginative and progressive. The current GAA proposal could throw counties like Cork, Down and Derry into a lower grade competition."
It gives each county a minimum of 4 games (7 if the group stage is double round robin). Max of 8 - 11 games. Another option is cross group games. Used by Leinster for the O'Byrne Cup. For example, the Group A teams play Group E teams.

Offaly v Longford
Laois v Roscommon
Tyrone v Antrim
Wexford v Westmeath

1 extra games which leaves us with a total of 5 before the Knockout stage.

I'd even add in bonus points for teams who score over 15 points."]One idea I had which has cross-Prov pairings as well as Prov Championship retention/relevance is as follows -

Retain Prov KO (no change) - 4 Champs to KO 16.
Also, and separately/ played in parallel - have a Super 18 (2 prior Tier 2 Champs and NFL other top 16) - 6 groups of 3 - each 3 from 3 different Provs - 2 group games per team - 6 x top 2 complete AI KO 16 (some Champs will advance twice, with a bye to AI KO QFs).

Tier 2 (14 teams, non Super 18) - also play 2 group games - 4 groups of 3 and 1 two-legged pair -
5 group winners and 3 best 2nds from 4x3 to Tier 2 KO QFs - 2 Finalists go up to Super 18 in the next year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 20/09/2019 22:11:15    2237947

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think there has to be a tiered championship.

I think there also and probably more importantly has to be a better top tier to aspire to.

A tier 2 championship itself probably has little prestige-why the Tommy Murphy Cup failed.

It could have prestige if it means advancement to a proper tier 1 the following season.

That proper tier 1 has to be a somewhat league based competition.

There has to be a proper relegation and promotion system.

If there was two tiers of 16 each, 3 up and 3 down would mean that there's a good flow moving between grades.

Every 2 seasons 19 different teams will have played top tier.

Most teams would aspire to get to that level.

Say Teams like Longford and Antrim getting promoted, they would get a 7 game program of games against the top teams the next year.

That's more top championship action Antrim gets in 5 seasons of football.

A 2 tier system doesn't have to be a case of the weaker teams losing out. It can overall benefit everyone."
Hi Wham - as you know I am not/ haven't been a big fan of a 15-game 'long' regular season, given Club/CPA needs for a better Club/ County balanced schedule (although 2 x 16 is fine).

To provide a desirable, competitive, yet somewhat 'handicapped' regular season, I propose the following -

1) Divide 32 teams into 3 seeding pots of 10, 12, 10
2) Draw half of each pot (5, 6, 5) to form equally ranked Streams A and B.
3) In each Stream, pots 1 & 3 play separate round robins (4 matches), while pot 2 (no round robin) plays Stream teams in the other 2 pots (so, all teams play a '10 of 15', partial round-robin Stream match schedule).
4) Each Stream has a combined 16-team table - the top 4 in each advance to a crossover 'double chance' round (DC, A1 hosts B4, A2hB3, B2hA3 & B1hA4) - and the next 4 in each Stream enter the 'AI QF - Playoff SF Rd' (A5hB8, A6hB7, A7hB6 & A8hB5).
5) 4 DC winners to AI QFs and 4 DC losers host 4 'Playoff - SF Rd' winners in 4 'QF Playoff - Finals'.
6) 4 DC winners host 4 QF Playoff winners in the AI KO QFs.
7) AI SFs at neutral Prov venues; Croke Park Final.
7) For seeding in the following year - AI QF 8 to pot 1, 'worst 10 of 32 records' to pot 3 and the 'weakest 12 of middle 14' to pot 2 (best 2 to pot 1).
8) Prov Championships played in early season / as stand alone competitions.

Those 'Pot 2v1 and 2v3' pairings give the weakest teams (in both Pots 3 & 2) access to the competitive games needed for development.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 21/09/2019 00:48:20    2237978

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