Carlow Forum

Where do we go from here.?

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longrun what has he achieved? 1 championship win against 14men louth please refresh my memory

dcarlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 150 - 20/03/2012 20:58:35    1133552


Some sense of perspective is called for here lads. A lot of people are unhappy about selection decisions (or lack thereof) from the sideline etc. That's a question for another day, which a lot of us here obviously have very strong and differing views about. First things first however, Carlow play Wicklow on Sunday....

A Wicklow team which managed to get pulled apart by Waterford, a few short weeks ago who themselves were easily beaten by Clare. The same Clare who we somehow conspired to award 2 league points to one week beforehand. Nobody apart from maybe Luke Dempsey is of the view this Clare team are world beaters.

Wicklow travel to meet us on Sunday after beating Limerick in Aughrim last Sunday who, it should be noted were also beaten by 'Clare'.

Objectively what exactly was Limericks form going into that game? They scrapped past a very mediocre Leitrim team in the opening round and lost to 'Clare'. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they otherwise beat London and Kilkenny. The table toppers Fermanagh have realistically beaten nobody of note scrapping past most of the aforementioned counties in whats been a particularly poor division. All in all its a bit of a who's who really isnt it?

I have to say I'm absolutely astounded by the new found air of optimism on the Wicklow forum following their 'turn around win' on Sunday. If there was ever an envoy of glass half full men its there you'll find them. There's one thing we do owe Wicklow football on Sunday, and thats consignment to Div 4. It would do me nicely anyhow and I make no apologies for stating it.

Man for man we're more than capable of giving it to them (even allowing for the many credible arguments over selection). The way this division has gone we're over due a win, particular in Dr Cullen and where sweeter a place to start.

Ceatherlach abu a chaired

Passer_By (Carlow) - Posts: 460 - 20/03/2012 21:15:54    1133575


Longrun is at it again lads ''''' 'The Dempsey Defender'.

fullbach (Carlow) - Posts: 243 - 20/03/2012 21:30:45    1133601


penypincher as far as i remember it does work on head to head because last year going into the last game in div 1 cork and kerry were level on points and cork only had to win to guarantee a place in the final because they had beaten kerry in the first game, possibly if more than two teams finish on the same points then they go to scoring diff

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1266 - 20/03/2012 21:36:55    1133612


i m going to be devils advocate! firstly i m not on here to talk about certain games/team selection etc as i dont go to only a small number of club/county football games. i m just on to question the attitude of some of the players in general. i think no matter if you had the best manager in ireland, if players lack the discipline to look after themselves, well you are at nothing. this means drinking/ other sports etc. most intercounty lads have specific tailored plans for themselves, train 4/5 nights a week. if the players dont buy into it thats not going to work. i heard stories of players going/wanting to go on wknds away with clubs on the beer, to tournaments of no real significance, not being contactable for long stretches by management in the last few months and indeed in previous years. this to me isnt whats required of an intercounty player. so do we drop them all? mangement sometimes have to remain quiet on why certain players were cut/not asked in /left. this leads to all sort of speculation etc. most of it rubbish! then the club bias thing starts etc! to me its nearly solely a football thing unfortunately. ruari dunbar, one of our most talented players of the last few years, along with nicky roberts, a v good young goalie, left the hurling squad, yet there was minimal fuss and the panel etc got on with the job. the hurlers appear way more focused as a group. compare this to t walshe leaving! now is it all down to management or the players? i dont know! but nearly all these hurlers play club football too. how many of the footballers play hurling? so this is one less distracton/cause to miss training etc. i think from too early an age a lot of the football clubs become too fascinated on beating each other and being happy with that- see what length of a thread had we on minor football compared to hurling - had we any??! i speak from being involved with minor squads - i think most people here know who i am by now!! and through my job. i see a difference in the last few years where the hurling youths main focus is trying to get onto the county panel and move forward. we seem to loose a huge amount of talented young footballers. why? like we arent a major hurling power or anything and the difference between our football/hurling teams isnt like that in kk. so what do we put it down to that fails to lure in all our best players to play for the county? i see it in our place where young lads who are on county panels wont train/play in A colleges competition. you d imagine this would be an ideal stepping stone where lads would give their right arm to play like a young lad in kk cbs or kierans. its nothing got to do with luke dempsey et all at that level. we have to start from the bottom and cut out the deadwood irregardless of a few years of suffering. if you want discipline then the same applies to all. it might mean loosing some lads but theres more to intercounty than raw talent.

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2598 - 20/03/2012 21:40:56    1133620


Old yellar - I agree that if lads don't buy into the lifestyle on an inter county player then we are at nothing. The problem I see is that most lads have no idea what it takes to be successful at this level - alot struggle at club level alone! It also happens when lads are just not up to playing at this level -( div 4), having young lads pulled into squads before their time - the football team is now mostly made up of young guys with little or no experienced guys left on the panel - which is needed to help guide new players along. The football team has had alot of managers over the years - alot have left due to arguments with county board or a lack of commitment from some players.

I feel that the hurlers have had some excellent managers over the years with Eoin Garvey and tommy buggy to name 2 . These guys were driven and ambitious in themselves and it filtered through to the team. Tommy buggy made the decision to play minor 'a' and the team never looked back - a lot of the lads who are playing senior now have won at minor level or u21 and school and have a winning mentality - this cannot be said of the footballers - most of them will have won nothing either with club or school. Some are playing club football at such a poor level in Carlow. But saying that a player knows when a manager is struggling - when he has no gameplan or does not make changes when necessary - I think then he starts to lose the 'dressing room'. This is why I believe Luke Dempsey has insisted on bringing in some many young players as I'm my opinion he is better able to manage this age group - he struggles to man manage older guys.

You mentioned Tomas Walsh - well this was different as he went to play for another county - the media got hold of it and it took off. Luke got him back as he felt tomas was the answer to our non existing midfield ( despite daithi Byrne trying to do his best) - turns out he wasn't the answer and Tomas ended up being used as a sub last year!

Inevitably the 'town v county' argument will arise - the tradition here in Carlow is that Carlow town is more football than hurling. That's down to up until last year when we had only one hurling club and very little hurling is played in the schools. Despite all their faults the christian brothers helped keep hurling going in this town and one of the criteria for getting a teaching job was your interest/ability to play or train a team in the school. Compare this to football where Eire Og and the blues have both been successful in Leinster.

It just feels that somehow the county board just accept mediocrity in this county and have decided that we just don't have the quality of footballer that will take us anywhere. It's all about getting games played, keeping within budgets with very little foresight from them. I feel the hurlers are successful in spite of them rather than because of them!

dual supporter (Carlow) - Posts: 772 - 21/03/2012 10:12:52    1133725


Yellar while the general point of your post is fair enough ,I honestly dont think you are in possession of the facts with regard to Luke Dempseys management of team. You admitted yourself that you dont attend too many games, Well were you at Leitrim or Clare games? They conspired thru lack of action on the line to lose 4 points, now that has huge consequences for football in the county IMO. You also make the point about players not being responsible as interco. players, fair enough, but what about Carlow footballer playing in Soccer Final on Patricks morning, yet stillbeing on panel for KK game the next day. (note diff with Kerry hurling bros), if youre being consistent about Dempsey then he should have dropped that player straight off, do you not agree?
Final point I think your comparison between Dunbar and Tom Walsh is just silly. You expect a player leaving panel to attract the same publicity as the best footballer we had produced for years changing counties under very dubious circumstances and involving the best known manager in the come on yellar.

pennypincher (Carlow) - Posts: 777 - 21/03/2012 13:03:24    1133918


Dual I dont think you can blame county board for the state of the footballers and then not give them some credit for the hurlers. Kind of damned if they do and damned if they dont! NO!!!! I would be concerned about situation in the future tho, if present incumbents remain.

pennypincher (Carlow) - Posts: 777 - 21/03/2012 13:17:33    1133935


imo what dempsey said about the carlow public was very disrespectful. we may not be experts but those that do attend games are not stupid either as for clare been such a great team, well that is not true i have seen them play 5 times in the last two year and they play the one tactic the whole time yet our management didn't counter it, that says it all

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1266 - 21/03/2012 13:25:35    1133941


Pennypincher, i d drop them also if this was the case. no qualm. but maybe when people come on about how is so in so not in/picked etc well most of the them there is issues behind it. it looks like some of our footballers have discipline issues if all these stories are true. but its a case of your damned if you do/damned if you dont sort of situation. as for thomas walshe, yes he was an outstanding talent for carlow. its a pity hes gone so young but we possibly didnt even see the best of him in this county. maybe not a fair comparison, but he was one player and we nearly had a kiniption because he left - of his own accord to play with a county not a puck away from our own, and we never seemed to move on. the hurlers have and will continue to do so. i said i wouldnt comment on the games as i wasnt there, just they perceived attitude of football/hurling in the county and how the players on both seem to buy into the whole lot. maybe our football club scene needs a revamp or more quality coaching? like i said most if not all the hurlers will play senior/inter football with their clubs in lge/champ and yet still do well at county senior level in the hurling. why is this? also i see our own club. its lost 17 senior footballers in the last 4 years so maybe the talent isnt there. will new senior management cure the problem at senior county level? you mentioned the hurling men we ve had and what they did. i think they players as a group along with good management drove on the success.. also i dont want to tar all the senior players in the county with the same brush. there are some fantastic lads there who d do anything for the jersey, but we all here the stories about those who dont want to. we sometimes dont have the luxury to cut all these loose as our pool is tighter and most managers that come in know they have to produce results in a 1/2 yr period. does football need a tipperary style revamp here, with a fulltime director of football? i ll throw that one out to the experts among ye.

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2598 - 21/03/2012 13:56:14    1133972


Now is the time to stop the rot before the panel falls apart altogether and we have another turnover of players when the next manager arrives.Dont suppose the CB even thought about approaching John Evans now that hes free. Maybe he wouldnt be interested in the job but would be no harm to ask all he can say is no.

THE BOSS (Carlow) - Posts: 475 - 21/03/2012 14:03:53    1133992


Dual supporter and pennypincher, just to make the point that I'm not here to defend Luke Dempsey and his regime now or any time I just play the field as I see it, I am however in a position to cast a critical eye over a couple of things. Pennypincher theres one issue that I totally disagree with you on and that is to say you blame Dempsey for not being able to instill Passion and Pride into our lads, passion, heart and pride in my view is, you either have it or you haven't, encouragement maybe, but that's somewhat different, but you can blame Dempsey for most other things one of them is being fit conscious, to encourage leadership, to encourage everyone to play a captains roll, to be part of a team that's made up of individuals, not to be individuals on a team, and how to play beyond the 70 minutes, little things like that.
Now, if and when we get a new management structure installed, should that include a new Manager, new selectors, replacing A.R, and replacing W.M, and who's job is it to remind the C.B the wheels started coming off the wagon as soon as Pat Deering left office or at least got progressively worse.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 1985 - 21/03/2012 14:46:29    1134062


ill ask the question again can somebody tell me what we achieve before dempsey came, i think none of the posters on here actully go and watch club championship matches inn the county because if you did you would see the standard of player that is available. ok change the manager, the selectors whatever but i can safely say we will be back here again this time next year giving out about the new guy;WE DONT HAVE TALENTED PLAYERS IN THE COUNTY and anybody who knows even a tad about football would know that.

longrun (Carlow) - Posts: 99 - 21/03/2012 14:49:26    1134069


Pennypincher - Before the start of this season the County Board were approached by Carlow Friends association (or whatever they are called now) along with 3 senior footballers who didnt want Luke Dempsey as manager for the coming year. The county board then went and asked 3 younger players who lets be honest would not be in a position to stand up to that sort of question and county board ignored the senior guys! I think they didnt want the hassle of looking for a new manager to be honest. And i stick to my opinion of the hurlers being successful in spite of carlow county board.

dual supporter (Carlow) - Posts: 772 - 21/03/2012 14:56:33    1134077


Longrun - this isnt about what we achieved before Dempsey came in - its about what he has done in the last 4 seasons to improve our lot? I honestly cannot name one thing that has improved - i know thats harsh and its just my opinion. We have now ended up with a load of young lads trying to play senior intercounty football. there are lads who played senior intercounty football who had no even played senior for their clubs! I would love to know what the panel of players he had at the start of his term in 2009 or the panel that played under Paul Bealin that beat a wexford team and brought Dublin to a replay in the o'Byrne cup and see how many of these lads are still on the panel or still playing with their clubs? Then compare them to the present Dublin team and see how many of them remained on the Dublin panel?

dual supporter (Carlow) - Posts: 772 - 21/03/2012 15:37:04    1134138


Supersub, I disagree that pride and passion can't be instilled in a player or a team. Read or listen to players in any team sport talk about the great managers and they will all say that the manager made them feel like they were special, or that the team was special and that is what drives pride. Getting the players to believe that they are a special group and that they are doing it for themselves and their county. In our case, I believe that would be getting the players to say that 'we are a Carlow team that will actually go and get promoted and make others sit up and notice us". I would suggest that is exactly the attitude Eoin Garvey and all that have come since him have been able to get our hurlers to buy into.

I would also argue that our minor and then u21 footballers of a few years ago had that attitude. I believe that any of those players involved in the senior set up are having that drained out of them. And I can see it happening to Brendan Murphy too as time goes by. He's only a young fella, yet is the leader of that team already.

Next, I would like to ask what has happened in Longford to get them where they are right now, looking at a strong chance life in Div 2 next year. Not so long ago we would have felt ourselves more than a match for them. Then we get their cast-off, they get a young manager with a fresh outlook of a winner and they are going from strength to strength over the exact same time frame.

St.John (Carlow) - Posts: 202 - 21/03/2012 16:28:27    1134222


longrun we had achieved nothing sense dempsey came in can you not see that what achievements are you talking about? sence he came in we haven't moved on that's the real problem

dcarlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 150 - 21/03/2012 17:34:09    1134293


St.John, I understand exactly what your saying and it makes sense but,making a team and its players fell special is one thing and its all good, but the pride, heart and passion should be supplied by the players them selves, other than that the more I try to get my head around all this the more I am convienced theres a crucial part of the jig saw missing,but I am available to be convienced otherwise.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 1985 - 21/03/2012 17:56:45    1134308


@longrun, i go to alot of games in this county and other's too, there is nothing wrong with the players, they would compare favorably to alot of other counties, i do think we need to restructure football in the county but that is for another thread

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1266 - 21/03/2012 18:01:08    1134314


barrowsider how did old leighlin go in leinster last year

longrun (Carlow) - Posts: 99 - 21/03/2012 18:14:09    1134326