National Forum

All Ireland SFC And Tailteann Cup 2023 Clarity

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To legendzxix:  "The league has a fair ranking. Division 1 counties are all battling to retain Division 1 status. It's a very fair level of competition. I think most will be reluctant to change the league format. If they want to increase the number of championship round robin games, it would be the only reason to implement any change.
It remains to be seen if the neutral venue games will attract crowds. That and the preliminary quarter-finals are debatable."
Why not move the neutral round to the beginning, followed by the home & away games - maybe then some play dead rubber games at home?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 16/03/2023 18:55:43    2464284

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The league has a fair ranking. Division 1 counties are all battling to retain Division 1 status. It's a very fair level of competition. I think most will be reluctant to change the league format. If they want to increase the number of championship round robin games, it would be the only reason to implement any change.
It remains to be seen if the neutral venue games will attract crowds. That and the preliminary quarter-finals are debatable."
What would be the rationale for keeping the league separate, when if the two round robins could be combined as Championship, the "league" games would be most meaningful?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 16/03/2023 20:30:32    2464296

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I think it's only fair to a point. It's likely very fair and accurate for the very top and very bottom - we know who is who there. But there's a lot of flux between teams, say 7 to 26, that are in the middle. With an odd exception, vast bulk of these teams in here could beat each other on any given day in Championship. There is clearly a hierarchy at the top, and a few cut loose at the bottom. The issue is with league rankings, is that it splits teams neatly 16 and 16 when that not how the divisions of tiers works in reality. Like we see numerous examples of teams having a tough League due to numerous factors, but then have a good Championship. League does not always accurately rank them as you can only play who you're in there with over 7 early season games. So it's not overly fair if we're being honest. It is why I think a combination ranking works, not simply on the Spring competition in poorer weather when a team with a few injuries can rank lower than where they might actually be.

And I don't see why it can't change. It clearly is a good competition, no one is doubting that. But if we're being honest, it's not meant to be our best competition. So we should be looking to pivot them that the League is what it is for, playing, trying things, using your squad - but ultimately getting ready for the main competition: Championship. We need to move it so that the best one is Championship. And we can do that by improving the layout, being more equitable in qualification. And the League can feed into that with some tweaks that make things more equitable, rather than keep the elite at the top, and those cut off at the bottom, while still keeping it a good competition. It's not good in the long term if we want to have a good Championship to have such disparity and the usual teams only playing each other"
......And we can do that by improving the layout, being more equitable in qualification......

Yes, but I don't see your solution. Does bridging the elite to those "cut off" mean having Div 1 & 4 teams in the same league division - I wouldn't be for that.

I think the middle ground you're looking for probably needs a top 20/bottom 12 - so the 'wide middle' can grow playing the elite and the "cut off" can grow by playing a few 'lower middle' opposition.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 16/03/2023 20:52:27    2464302

Link

Replying To omahant:  "......And we can do that by improving the layout, being more equitable in qualification......

Yes, but I don't see your solution. Does bridging the elite to those "cut off" mean having Div 1 & 4 teams in the same league division - I wouldn't be for that.

I think the middle ground you're looking for probably needs a top 20/bottom 12 - so the 'wide middle' can grow playing the elite and the "cut off" can grow by playing a few 'lower middle' opposition."
Not saying I have it, said above that I don't have the answer. Just have some suggestions on what doesn't seem to work exactly right just now and what I'd look at. The GAA have made changes after the layout being essentially unchanged for 140 years (with addition of qualifiers adding in a quarter final being the only change in any form) and it was never going to be got right immediately. Unknowns pop up to show there's issues, and other such things. Just highlighting is all, and I hope the top brass see it's not perfect and look to tweak things where possible to make it better. They're learning after the first big change last year

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 17/03/2023 11:23:59    2464326

Link

Replying To omahant:  "......And we can do that by improving the layout, being more equitable in qualification......

Yes, but I don't see your solution. Does bridging the elite to those "cut off" mean having Div 1 & 4 teams in the same league division - I wouldn't be for that.

I think the middle ground you're looking for probably needs a top 20/bottom 12 - so the 'wide middle' can grow playing the elite and the "cut off" can grow by playing a few 'lower middle' opposition."
Missed a bit of your post on my reply. No, I'm lot sarong mix Div 1 and Div 4 sides. No way that works. I'd say mix D1/D2 sides, and D3/D4 sides, so both are exposed to each other and there isn't a cutoff. Promotion and relegation from the new Divisions 1A/B and 2A/B. If you're good enough in 2, you'll go up, bad enough in 1 you'll go down. So each team has that opportunity each year to go up or down. And doesn't leave just a select group just playing each other at the very top pulling away, or the bottom falling away. Just a suggestion, but not Dublin or Kerry playing London or Waterford

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 17/03/2023 12:20:13    2464342

Link

If Westmeath were to make a leinster final does that mean the winners of Division 3 final would be put into Sam Maguire(as Westmeath already have place in it from Tailteann Cup win)

macca999 (Fermanagh) - Posts: 1165 - 20/03/2023 16:19:54    2465270

Link

Replying To macca999:  "If Westmeath were to make a leinster final does that mean the winners of Division 3 final would be put into Sam Maguire(as Westmeath already have place in it from Tailteann Cup win)"
There are 16 teams in All Ireland Championship. If Westmeath qualify through Leinster Championship, the next best team in League would qualify. That could mean Div 3 winners.

Jack L (None) - Posts: 3149 - 20/03/2023 20:43:09    2465371

Link

If Sligo or Leitrim lose at home to a Seed 4 and away to a Seed 3, they will take on a provincial champion in a neutral venue when they have already been knocked out of the championship.
Seeding 2, 3 and 4 should be determined by league ranking.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 21/03/2023 11:08:36    2465430

Link

Replying To macca999:  "If Westmeath were to make a leinster final does that mean the winners of Division 3 final would be put into Sam Maguire(as Westmeath already have place in it from Tailteann Cup win)"
No,

Only way Div 3 winners can get into Tailteann Cup is if they reach provincial final.

16 teams in the All Ireland. At the moment its Westmeath, Sligo/Leitrim and the 14 best league finishes. Just say Cavan were to reach the Ulster Final then the 6th place team in Div 2 will drop down to the Tailteann Cup

Temple56 (Westmeath) - Posts: 547 - 21/03/2023 12:04:46    2465451

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "No,

Only way Div 3 winners can get into Tailteann Cup is if they reach provincial final.

16 teams in the All Ireland. At the moment its Westmeath, Sligo/Leitrim and the 14 best league finishes. Just say Cavan were to reach the Ulster Final then the 6th place team in Div 2 will drop down to the Tailteann Cup"
If Westmeath make the Leinster final, as they have already qualified through the Tailteann, the Division 3 winner could gain access as the 8th qualifier through the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 21/03/2023 13:25:15    2465475

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "No,

Only way Div 3 winners can get into Tailteann Cup is if they reach provincial final.

16 teams in the All Ireland. At the moment its Westmeath, Sligo/Leitrim and the 14 best league finishes. Just say Cavan were to reach the Ulster Final then the 6th place team in Div 2 will drop down to the Tailteann Cup"
As Jack L states above, if westmeath reach provincial final that could create a space as they already in Sam Maguire through last years Tailteann Cup win, so extra space available as can't enter twice surely?

macca999 (Fermanagh) - Posts: 1165 - 21/03/2023 13:41:42    2465478

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "If Westmeath make the Leinster final, as they have already qualified through the Tailteann, the Division 3 winner could gain access as the 8th qualifier through the league."
No - I don't agree - Div 3 Champ is seeded 15 and with Sligo/Leitrim and Westmeath guaranteed berths, only NFL top 14 'at most' could get in. That 14 is subject to reduction but not an increase.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 21/03/2023 14:23:30    2465497

Link

Replying To macca999:  "As Jack L states above, if westmeath reach provincial final that could create a space as they already in Sam Maguire through last years Tailteann Cup win, so extra space available as can't enter twice surely?"
But sure is that not the same for every team already 100% in the Sam Maguire?

Example: if Dublin reach provincial final does that mean an extra space is available as Dublin can't enter twice surely???

Temple56 (Westmeath) - Posts: 547 - 21/03/2023 14:28:39    2465499

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "No,

Only way Div 3 winners can get into Tailteann Cup is if they reach provincial final.

16 teams in the All Ireland. At the moment its Westmeath, Sligo/Leitrim and the 14 best league finishes. Just say Cavan were to reach the Ulster Final then the 6th place team in Div 2 will drop down to the Tailteann Cup"
Division 3 winner can reach Sam if Westmeath reach the Leinster final. At the moment, Westmeath are 4th seeds, but they have the potential to jump to 1st or 2nd seeds on reaching the final, as this will supersede the Tailteann qualifier. This would then free up a spot in the 4th seeds for the next best League finisher, which could be the Division 3 winner - providing that no other D3/D4 team (outside of Connacht) reach their final.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/03/2023 14:51:40    2465513

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Division 3 winner can reach Sam if Westmeath reach the Leinster final. At the moment, Westmeath are 4th seeds, but they have the potential to jump to 1st or 2nd seeds on reaching the final, as this will supersede the Tailteann qualifier. This would then free up a spot in the 4th seeds for the next best League finisher, which could be the Division 3 winner - providing that no other D3/D4 team (outside of Connacht) reach their final."
I think you have this all wrong.

Example: If Westmeath reach Lenister final the All Ireland Seeding will look something like this -

Seed1:
Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Derry
Seed2:
Westmeath, Cork, Sligo or Leitrim, Armagh
Seed3:
Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal
Seed4:
Louth, Cork, Meath, Kildare

At the moment Kildare have the worst league position (outside of Westmeath and the Div 4 Connacht team that will qualify). Kildare are ranked at 14th, they will be the team with biggest danger of dropping down to the Tailteann cup but this can only happen if teams not already in Sam make a Provincial final

Temple56 (Westmeath) - Posts: 547 - 21/03/2023 17:19:06    2465576

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "I think you have this all wrong.

Example: If Westmeath reach Lenister final the All Ireland Seeding will look something like this -

Seed1:
Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Derry
Seed2:
Westmeath, Cork, Sligo or Leitrim, Armagh
Seed3:
Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal
Seed4:
Louth, Cork, Meath, Kildare

At the moment Kildare have the worst league position (outside of Westmeath and the Div 4 Connacht team that will qualify). Kildare are ranked at 14th, they will be the team with biggest danger of dropping down to the Tailteann cup but this can only happen if teams not already in Sam make a Provincial final"
You guys will never get this right - Cork has two teams?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 21/03/2023 17:38:07    2465582

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "I think you have this all wrong.

Example: If Westmeath reach Lenister final the All Ireland Seeding will look something like this -

Seed1:
Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Derry
Seed2:
Westmeath, Cork, Sligo or Leitrim, Armagh
Seed3:
Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal
Seed4:
Louth, Cork, Meath, Kildare

At the moment Kildare have the worst league position (outside of Westmeath and the Div 4 Connacht team that will qualify). Kildare are ranked at 14th, they will be the team with biggest danger of dropping down to the Tailteann cup but this can only happen if teams not already in Sam make a Provincial final"
Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2 and Seed 3 v Seed 4

If provincial runners-up Westmeath and Leitrim or Sligo are playing a provincial winner in Game 3, there's a high possiblity that they might already be knocked out after Game 2.

Seed 2 needs to be based on league ranking if dead rubbers are to have a higher chance of being avoided. A provincial winner versus a high league team in Game 3 would have a high possiblity of both on 2 wins each, playing each other to qualify directly for the quarter-finals.
Seed 3 v Seed 4 based on league ranking then would have a high possiblity of being on 0 points, playing each other for the win to qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 21/03/2023 17:42:30    2465584

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "I think you have this all wrong.

Example: If Westmeath reach Lenister final the All Ireland Seeding will look something like this -

Seed1:
Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Derry
Seed2:
Westmeath, Cork, Sligo or Leitrim, Armagh
Seed3:
Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal
Seed4:
Louth, Cork, Meath, Kildare

At the moment Kildare have the worst league position (outside of Westmeath and the Div 4 Connacht team that will qualify). Kildare are ranked at 14th, they will be the team with biggest danger of dropping down to the Tailteann cup but this can only happen if teams not already in Sam make a Provincial final"
Galway not make ur list ,,,,,,, as far as I understand it 8 teams thar get provincial final + Westmeath and then next best 7 teams in league so obviously if teams make provincial final there place goes to another team in league standings

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 1061 - 21/03/2023 17:58:44    2465595

Link

Replying To Temple56:  "I think you have this all wrong.

Example: If Westmeath reach Lenister final the All Ireland Seeding will look something like this -

Seed1:
Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Derry
Seed2:
Westmeath, Cork, Sligo or Leitrim, Armagh
Seed3:
Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal
Seed4:
Louth, Cork, Meath, Kildare

At the moment Kildare have the worst league position (outside of Westmeath and the Div 4 Connacht team that will qualify). Kildare are ranked at 14th, they will be the team with biggest danger of dropping down to the Tailteann cup but this can only happen if teams not already in Sam make a Provincial final"
Are you permitting Cork to enter two teams? It's a fair ould size of a county after all, but still…

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2202 - 21/03/2023 18:57:16    2465608

Link

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Division 3 winner can reach Sam if Westmeath reach the Leinster final. At the moment, Westmeath are 4th seeds, but they have the potential to jump to 1st or 2nd seeds on reaching the final, as this will supersede the Tailteann qualifier. This would then free up a spot in the 4th seeds for the next best League finisher, which could be the Division 3 winner - providing that no other D3/D4 team (outside of Connacht) reach their final."
That's not correct. Two things are being confused here: the number of places (16) and the seeding. Westmeath have qualified regardless and are taking a place so there are 15 left. If they get to the Leinster final, it just changes their seeding pot but doesn't free up a new place. Once the Connacht draw was made, guaranteeing one Div 4 team a place (so 14 left), then it was impossible for the Division 3 champions (15th in ranking) to qualify via the league. If that draw had been different then it would have been possible.
For future years, the only circumstance in which the 16th ranked team (Division 3 runners-up) could qualify via the league would be if the Tailteann Cup winners won Division 3.

Bizzarely, this Irish Examiner article link which was meant to be bringing clarity to the situation ("Untangling the knotted weeds of Sam Maguire qualification") makes the exact same mistake regarding the Division 3 champions under the section "Can Westmeath upgrade their seeding?"

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 135 - 21/03/2023 19:44:28    2465619

Link