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Do agree. I'd also add though, that minus Dublin (yes, it's a stretch) the Leinster Championship is quite competitive and someone coming through to the final usually has enough work done to deserve a spot.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 13/03/2023 11:11:16 2463672 Link 0 |
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I'm agreeing with bulk of what you're saying but I think you're actually look at this the wrong way round. League is not set as the main qualifier route here. Championship is. It's not the top 14, it's the teams left after they take the Tailteann winner, then the 8 provincial finalists. Only then do they look at league for the next 7 positions. It's not first they look at, as they can be pushed out like you say at 14th if Cavan reach the Ulster final Like we know that the vast bulk of the 8 finalists will be in that top 14 anyway, so the 7 next based on league tends to be those next down Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 13/03/2023 12:48:23 2463692 Link 0 |
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I hear you and know where you are coming from it's just the provincial imbalance that I've a big problem with and the main advantage of the league is that it is fair. Some of the appetite for change was to reduce provincial imbalances and if anything the new system exacerbates it further and doesn't really make sense to me. My ideal would be for a more league based championship that could incorporate provincial championships performance but it's quite hard to do that in a tidy manner. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 14/03/2023 13:44:17 2463885 Link 1 |
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There are imbalances. The key is to try an find a fair balance. Provincial winners only is the best solution. It respects tradition and also can utilise the league rankings. The options I see for the next change are a 20:12 approach or a 16:8:8 approach. The current format is a start. We've seen the hurling have tweaks like Leinster and McDonagh increasing to 6. Next, Munster or Leinster will have 6 depending on the McDonagh winner. Hurling is in the position of minor tweaks. The 2023 football format is a big step. Minor tweaks to follow should help a long term format to become established. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 14/03/2023 17:16:42 2463932 Link 0 |
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Will the Round Robin system survive? You could replace it with a Knockout/back door system. Round 1 -8 games (With seedings no doubt) Round 2A - 8 winners play for 4 Qtr Final places. Losers to Round 3. Round 2B - 8 losers play off, losers out, winners to Round 3. Round 3 - losers 2A play winners 2B for 4 Qtr Final places. All games are meaningful, every County gets minimum 2 games, 20 games to decide Qtr Finalists compared to 28 for current system. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1416 - 14/03/2023 18:59:12 2463951 Link 0 |
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Like we discussed before, Provincial Championship results could be incorporated into a League-based AIC. Let's assume a 20-team Tier 1 AIC, with 4 groups of 5. With 20 teams, we can only fit at most, 10 of 12 Prov QF ties into the groups (if all 20 are Tier 1). After Prov QFs, create groups A1 & A2 from the 'top half' of each Prov draw and groups B1 & B2 from the 'bottom half'. Only for QF ties between top 20 teams, A1 has one 'top half' QF winner from each of Ulster and Leinster and the QF losers from the other two top half ties from the same Provs. A2 has up to four QF opponents for the A1 teams. Only for QF ties between top 20 teams, B1 has one 'bottom half' QF winner from each of Ulster and Leinster and the QF loser from the other two bottom half ties from the same Provs. B2 has up to four QF opponents for the B1 teams. Finally, add all remaining top half teams to A1/A2 and bottom half teams to B1/B2 from all four Provs, not yet assigned, to complete four 5-team groups. In the first half of the season, teams play 5 'inter-group' matches (A1vA2 & B1vB2), including all Prov QFs & SFs, only where top 20 teams go head to head. In the second half of the season, teams play 5 'other' inter-group matches (A1vB1 & A2vB2), including possibly some Prov Finals - otherwise, some Prov Finals are played as stand alone. Top 2 (or 3) from each of the four '10-match' group, 5-team tables advance to the AI KO (Prov Champs NOT guaranteed a berth). Tier 2 has the 'Bottom 12 teams', with two 6-team groups, similarly constructed after Prov QFs and Prelim Rd results are known (if played between Bottom 12 teams). Two Tier 2 Finalists are promoted, two down from Tier 1 following playoff match between the last team in each of the 4 groups. Yes, you are right - not so tidy ! omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 14/03/2023 20:32:40 2463959 Link 0 |
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It is a good system but Mayo, Galway and Roscommon must not be the same side of the draw again, until one of Sligo, Leitrim or London get to DIV 2 or win the Tailtean. One of the 3 Division 1 teams should on a rotation basis be placed on the other side of the draw. Posters on the Leitrim thread are debating if it would be better in the long run for them to lose to Sligo rather than face 4 big hammerings, saying that after suffering a big defeat to Galway, Mayo or Ross, they will have to travel to Killarney the following week, to play the All Ireland Champs.
giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1222 - 15/03/2023 08:16:54 2463966 Link 0 |
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I don't think we're far away from sorting out the format to be honest. Incorporating each into one doesn't work for me. In fact, we'll already have mini leagues in it now as it is. No reason the League format can't stay as the Spring competition, and Championship as the late Spring/Summer one. With one feeding the other with some rankings but not a full on combination. For me, Championship has to be the first thing. It's the be all and end all of GAA. It's not like soccer where their FA cup has fallen back. Sam is it. So hence why I'm happy with Provincial finalists adding in. Maybe they need tweaking in seeding or such (looking at you, Connacht) as some years you will lopside things by having some seeded and some not. The fact we don't know the actual layout until far in advance and it changes yearly is my issue. I actually think the answer lies somewhere between the A and B options given a few years back. B failed as it cut out too many top sides who may have an indifferent League, and then get cut out of Sam on score difference or head to head. Consequently we effectively guarantee teams who get relegated from Division 1 even if they have a shocking year. But some of what B had, such as the Divisional winners, would be a good reward and could be something I'd look at. You could have your Sam and Tailteann winners from previous year, your 4 Division winners, and 8 Provincial finalists (seeded so as to have them equitable), then fill up rest of your positions (allowing for multiples of the 14 spaces above taken by the same county) by League. Could be as many as 8 or as few as 2 based on that My other suggestion was to go back to 1A/1B, and 2A/2B divisions and have the ability to move up or down yearly seemed to annoy some who want the League format to stay forever more. Either way, there's room for adjustment here, as currently it's just not fully right. Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 15/03/2023 09:59:28 2463971 Link 0 |
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Would people prefer extra championship games in place of league games? League divisions of 6 and championship groups of 5 or 6 is the way to go. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 15/03/2023 10:44:51 2463982 Link 0 |
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As said previously I think the GAA have got things right . League and Championship structures are excellent and we are down to a few small potential tweaks anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 15/03/2023 11:11:12 2463988 Link 0 |
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So I guess my point would be that the league is brilliant but wouldn't it be even better if the league were played in April to June/July and was the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 15/03/2023 12:34:09 2464012 Link 1 |
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I'm not sure about the last 12 from 16 and the neutral venue group games. The hurling round robins guarantee at least 2 home games. I'd be in favour of that. Provincial seeding based on league ranking would be fair. All provinces would have to agree.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 15/03/2023 13:09:22 2464025 Link 0 |
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Yes, that 1A/1B & 2A/2B would be good, with say, top 4 from each group advancing to Tier 1 & 2 QFs. Or, like the Liam McC Cup (where 4 Prov Finalists get a 2nd chance and 3rd v McD is a KO), give the top 2 a crossover double-chance pairing and 3rd v 4th a KO. To spice things up even further, I'd add the 1A/1B bottom 4s to a 16-team Tier 2 KO (with or without half the teams getting a double-chance). Tier 2 QF 8 get NFL Div 1A/1B berths for the following (so, number of teams going up would be variable, anywhere from none to a most unlikely but earned 8). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 15/03/2023 13:26:24 2464032 Link 0 |
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Wasn't exactly what I meant. For League only, to be used in combination with the other qualifier routes to make up the 16 teams for Sam. Gives each team an opportunity to move up or down yearly and such.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 15/03/2023 15:07:22 2464056 Link 0 |
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I'd like to do away with Mc Kenna cups and the like, go at league with top team are winners, then start the championship with open draw Div 4 and 3 teams with winner's having an open draw with Div 2 teams in the pot. Then open draw with winners of that with the Div 1 teams until final.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 15/03/2023 15:59:21 2464072 Link 2 |
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The league has a fair ranking. Division 1 counties are all battling to retain Division 1 status. It's a very fair level of competition. I think most will be reluctant to change the league format. If they want to increase the number of championship round robin games, it would be the only reason to implement any change. It remains to be seen if the neutral venue games will attract crowds. That and the preliminary quarter-finals are debatable. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 15/03/2023 16:00:56 2464074 Link 0 |
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I think it's only fair to a point. It's likely very fair and accurate for the very top and very bottom - we know who is who there. But there's a lot of flux between teams, say 7 to 26, that are in the middle. With an odd exception, vast bulk of these teams in here could beat each other on any given day in Championship. There is clearly a hierarchy at the top, and a few cut loose at the bottom. The issue is with league rankings, is that it splits teams neatly 16 and 16 when that not how the divisions of tiers works in reality. Like we see numerous examples of teams having a tough League due to numerous factors, but then have a good Championship. League does not always accurately rank them as you can only play who you're in there with over 7 early season games. So it's not overly fair if we're being honest. It is why I think a combination ranking works, not simply on the Spring competition in poorer weather when a team with a few injuries can rank lower than where they might actually be. And I don't see why it can't change. It clearly is a good competition, no one is doubting that. But if we're being honest, it's not meant to be our best competition. So we should be looking to pivot them that the League is what it is for, playing, trying things, using your squad - but ultimately getting ready for the main competition: Championship. We need to move it so that the best one is Championship. And we can do that by improving the layout, being more equitable in qualification. And the League can feed into that with some tweaks that make things more equitable, rather than keep the elite at the top, and those cut off at the bottom, while still keeping it a good competition. It's not good in the long term if we want to have a good Championship to have such disparity and the usual teams only playing each other Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 16/03/2023 11:20:14 2464167 Link 0 |
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Get rid of pre season competitions. Pre season training to commence in October. Commence National League in mid January giving an extra two weeks to complete program. I think they should do away with Preliminary quarter finals. (24 matches to elliminate 4 teams??? followed by 10 matches to elliminate 10). Four matches less would free up a weekend. Second half of year given to clubs is great. Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 16/03/2023 12:37:34 2464184 Link 0 |
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They're pre-season for a reason. I'm not sure the point in getting rid of them when they'll just be filled up with challenge matches which teams want before first league match. They take up little time, and serve a purpose. Leave them be
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 16/03/2023 14:22:12 2464213 Link 0 |
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Lets just get rid of everything while we're at it
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 16/03/2023 14:49:00 2464219 Link 0 |