National Forum

All Ireland SFC And Tailteann Cup 2023 Clarity

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Replying To B&G:  "The Top two teams in Div 3 are ranked above the bottom two in Div 2. Irrevelent this year due to lop sided Connacht draw.

Similarly the top two in Div 2 are ranked higher than the bottom 2 in Div 1."
Yes, that is what I'm saying. This year though with a Tailteann winner taking a spot and a D4 team getting to a Connacht final a Division 3 promoted team won't go up. Bad luck for those teams. Likely not to be the case next year

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 10/03/2023 14:32:38    2463217

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think it's that unclear but the system is a bit rubbish.

Provincial finalists shouldn't be getting in at the expense of a division 2 team or division 3 champion in my opinion.

It's not great that at the culmination of the league there are only 8 teams that know for sure that they are qualified. Like a team like Clare could be in that maybe list and if they get Kerry in a Munster semifinal they've can get leapfrogged out of a place with no chance to get back in.

The issue is having the Provincials having to be part of the championship and I think it's holding back the opportunity for far better competitions for everyone.

3 tier championship of 12, 10 and 10 could make a lot of sense for instance. With single round robin moving into playoffs."
I do think there needs to be adjustments, but on your provincial finalists point, I'd still be happy with that. Championship form should be rewarded more than league in reaching a final like this. The issue though is how this is set with some lopsided draws like Connacht this year. I don't have the answer, just that something needs to be figured. Draw seeded maybe, I dunno

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 10/03/2023 14:38:28    2463220

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I do think there needs to be adjustments, but on your provincial finalists point, I'd still be happy with that. Championship form should be rewarded more than league in reaching a final like this. The issue though is how this is set with some lopsided draws like Connacht this year. I don't have the answer, just that something needs to be figured. Draw seeded maybe, I dunno"
I don't like that a team can lose their place because of results in a competition they don't enter. I don't know feels wrong. It'd be even worse if division 1 teams started taking the provincials easy because they'd already qualified.

Just seems very off even if seeding was brought in.

Like it'd probably be better for already qualified teams to lose semifinals to weaker opponents to weaken the field for the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 10/03/2023 17:02:01    2463264

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Good debate and points on this topic.

Another issue being under new structure bring with provincial semi finals at end of April, some teams may not know what competition in until those are finished.

The fact that in both Sam Maguire and Tailteann cup that 3 teams progress from groups of 4 means teams have side door this year. Appreciate that reason for this is to stop dead rubber games as happened in super 8s. If GAA went back to initial concept of championship being straight knockout then dead rubber games wouldn't exist.

I suspect ticket sales may be huge factor also in these structures. This year a team could win all Ireland after losing 3 games. Fully accept for effort and commitment teams deserve second chance but third stretching it now

macca999 (Fermanagh) - Posts: 1165 - 10/03/2023 18:20:59    2463270

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Replying To macca999:  "With the championship just around the corner(still think its crazy that be teams taking to field in April, championship all about battles in summer sun), would just like to be 100% clear on how the format will work, without needed a masters degree in aerospacial studies

Going by GAA.ie Website the seedings are below so i have inputted teams that could end up in each, would this be correct based on those examples can anyone verify?


https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/2023-all-ireland-sfc-format-explained/#:~:text=Twelve%20counties%20will%20advance%20to,repeat%20pairings%20from%20Round%20One.



First seeds: The four provincial champions (Derry, Dublin, Mayo, Kerry)

Second seeds: The four provincial runners-up( Leitrim, Meath, Armagh, Cork)

Third seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league (Galway, Roscommon, Tyrone, Monaghan)

Fourth seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league(Donegal, Louth, Kildare, Westmeath - Based on winning Tailteann Cup in 2022)


Apart from Westmeath, then no team from Division 3 can play in this years All Ireland regardless of promotion, with Taiteann Cup winners rightly guaranteed place every year then depending on provincial comps there is a good chance that teams promoted from Division 3 might not get to enter All Ireland Series every year which seems bit unfair(unless stay in division 2 the following year, for older players who retire this is slightly unfair as miss out, ideally better for teams in Division 3 with momentum going into SFC in same year)"
Wouldn't be putting by house on Meath,Armagh and especially Leitrim to be 2nd seeds. likewise Derry,Mayo winning their province.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3606 - 10/03/2023 18:52:38    2463277

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I do think there needs to be adjustments, but on your provincial finalists point, I'd still be happy with that. Championship form should be rewarded more than league in reaching a final like this. The issue though is how this is set with some lopsided draws like Connacht this year. I don't have the answer, just that something needs to be figured. Draw seeded maybe, I dunno"
The provinces are a bit lopsided in size, varying from 5 in Connacht, to 12 in Leinster. Munster is mostly a hurling province. Counties are made of counties of varying ability, only a few counties would be regarded as genuine AI contenders. Maybe an open draw is one answer.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 10/03/2023 19:27:08    2463278

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Traditionally provincial champions have qualified for the All-Ireland semi-finals. I wouldn't rush away from removing provincial champions from the All-Ireland series. The current format is a first step. The next step should be provincial champions only, Tailteann winner and league ranking.
Groups of 5 would allow 2 home games each and allow Croke Park retain quarter-finals. 20 teams in total.
The Tailteann Cup then can have two groups of 6, or else one group of 6 with a tier 3 also having a group of 6.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 11/03/2023 08:49:12    2463297

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't like that a team can lose their place because of results in a competition they don't enter. I don't know feels wrong. It'd be even worse if division 1 teams started taking the provincials easy because they'd already qualified.

Just seems very off even if seeding was brought in.

Like it'd probably be better for already qualified teams to lose semifinals to weaker opponents to weaken the field for the All Ireland."
What could happen in this new format is that Div 1 will not concentrate on provisional championships as they have already qualified for All Ireland series. They will want to peak for the new All Ireland series. Work hard during the spring to maintain Div 1 status and get ready for the All Ireland series taking their eye of the provisional series.
Over the next few years you will likely see Div 3/4 teams qualifying for a provisional final guaanteeing them a place in All Ireland series

B&G (Longford) - Posts: 371 - 11/03/2023 08:53:01    2463298

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Replying To thelongridge:  "The provinces are a bit lopsided in size, varying from 5 in Connacht, to 12 in Leinster. Munster is mostly a hurling province. Counties are made of counties of varying ability, only a few counties would be regarded as genuine AI contenders. Maybe an open draw is one answer."
Well 7 in Connacht with London and News York. But yeah, get your point. The provincials still do mean a lot for some, and with the split season, there's still place for them between league and Championship. Just need to find the way it works to feed into Championship so it's fair and equitable. Like getting to an Ulster final is infinitely harder than the others.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 11/03/2023 09:35:13    2463303

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't like that a team can lose their place because of results in a competition they don't enter. I don't know feels wrong. It'd be even worse if division 1 teams started taking the provincials easy because they'd already qualified.

Just seems very off even if seeding was brought in.

Like it'd probably be better for already qualified teams to lose semifinals to weaker opponents to weaken the field for the All Ireland."
I don't see why they'd take it easy. It's Championship. Aren't teams wanting to win their games? I think there's a middle ground somewhere with a slight adjustment of the League, have the provincials, then use a combination of each that's more equitable to feed into each Championship (better than we have).

That last like just does not make any sense. When would any team do that, when they still need to think of seeding?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 11/03/2023 09:40:02    2463305

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Well 7 in Connacht with London and News York. But yeah, get your point. The provincials still do mean a lot for some, and with the split season, there's still place for them between league and Championship. Just need to find the way it works to feed into Championship so it's fair and equitable. Like getting to an Ulster final is infinitely harder than the others."
Ulster and Leinster have a full set of quarter-finals. Connacht and Munster do not. Ulster and Leinster should be classified as double branch championships. Connacht and Munster should be classified as single branch championships. Double branch championships should see both finalists qualify. Single branch championships should only see provincial winners qualify. I think this is a fair compromise. All counties would then have to win at least two provincial rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 11/03/2023 11:06:52    2463320

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I don't see why they'd take it easy. It's Championship. Aren't teams wanting to win their games? I think there's a middle ground somewhere with a slight adjustment of the League, have the provincials, then use a combination of each that's more equitable to feed into each Championship (better than we have).

That last like just does not make any sense. When would any team do that, when they still need to think of seeding?"
Is the seeding actually that important. I'd also say that being a losing finalist is the worst position to be in because the weakest team or teams in the competition will be more likely a losing finalist.

So even the seeding system at present is messed up.

If the top teams don't care about the provincials and aren't gunning to win it then the seeding becomes a crapshoot anyway.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 11/03/2023 11:48:10    2463330

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Ulster and Leinster have a full set of quarter-finals. Connacht and Munster do not. Ulster and Leinster should be classified as double branch championships. Connacht and Munster should be classified as single branch championships. Double branch championships should see both finalists qualify. Single branch championships should only see provincial winners qualify. I think this is a fair compromise. All counties would then have to win at least two provincial rounds."
Something like that would work alright. Tough to pass that though. Some years Connacht can be very hard, what with 3 Division 1 teams now. Just the way the draw fell this year that those 3 are on one side.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 11/03/2023 13:12:13    2463347

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Is the seeding actually that important. I'd also say that being a losing finalist is the worst position to be in because the weakest team or teams in the competition will be more likely a losing finalist.

So even the seeding system at present is messed up.

If the top teams don't care about the provincials and aren't gunning to win it then the seeding becomes a crapshoot anyway."
Seeding can work if it means you get top seeding and avoid a top side, and get drawn against lower seeds. I dunno. We've gone the way of linking league and Championship, while incorporating provincials, just need to find what works and isn't lopsided for one or another. I'd like league to feed in to a point, but for me Championship is the top grade and needs weighted toward that. Be that last seasons or provincials, or a combination of all 3. Like a run in provincials should always outweigh League, but how best to do that is the thing. It just isn't fully there right now

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 11/03/2023 13:21:14    2463350

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Seeding can work if it means you get top seeding and avoid a top side, and get drawn against lower seeds. I dunno. We've gone the way of linking league and Championship, while incorporating provincials, just need to find what works and isn't lopsided for one or another. I'd like league to feed in to a point, but for me Championship is the top grade and needs weighted toward that. Be that last seasons or provincials, or a combination of all 3. Like a run in provincials should always outweigh League, but how best to do that is the thing. It just isn't fully there right now"
Problem is there are only 1 and a half decent Provincial Championships.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 11/03/2023 14:03:20    2463354

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Something like that would work alright. Tough to pass that though. Some years Connacht can be very hard, what with 3 Division 1 teams now. Just the way the draw fell this year that those 3 are on one side."
Yeah, difficult to pass without explanation and provincial support for fairness. Ulster and Leinster have a lot of votes however. Failing that, the only option really is to only allow provincial champions qualify through the the provincial championships.
If the All-Ireland Championship was 20 in 4 groups of 5, the top half of Division 3 like Cavan, Fermanagh, Westmeath and Down would make the cut. 20:12 still seems like a fairer split. Counties should not be excluded at the stroke of a pen.
While I'm critical of the hurling league, it might suit football. Division 1 in two groups of 6. Then Division 2 of 6, Division 3 of 6 and Division 4 of 8. The league will have 2 weeks less. The All-Ireland group stage will have 2 weeks more.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 11/03/2023 16:14:05    2463398

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If there is an automatic AIC place for the Tailteann Champ, why not have one for the Div 3 Champ as well? Then we could 'near' guarantee the NFL Top 14 auto berths, assuming we only allow 4 Prov Champs in.
More generally, to keep the game count down in a split season, why not have all Prov pairings 'double up' as league ties when played between teams within the same division?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 11/03/2023 19:32:27    2463424

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Replying To omahant:  "If there is an automatic AIC place for the Tailteann Champ, why not have one for the Div 3 Champ as well? Then we could 'near' guarantee the NFL Top 14 auto berths, assuming we only allow 4 Prov Champs in.
More generally, to keep the game count down in a split season, why not have all Prov pairings 'double up' as league ties when played between teams within the same division?"
The league has a ranking of 1 to 32. League ranking has replaced qualifiers. Counties cannot jump league ranking through the league as that is the league's qualifying metric.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 12/03/2023 08:52:21    2463462

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The league has a ranking of 1 to 32. League ranking has replaced qualifiers. Counties cannot jump league ranking through the league as that is the league's qualifying metric."
Not following - maybe I'm too dumb - top Div 3 team is currently ranked 15 (ahead of Div 2 7th & 8th) - so why would they not be eligible based on NFL rankings?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 12/03/2023 20:50:16    2463620

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Replying To omahant:  "Not following - maybe I'm too dumb - top Div 3 team is currently ranked 15 (ahead of Div 2 7th & 8th) - so why would they not be eligible based on NFL rankings?"
Eligible but not guaranteed. If Cavan win Division 3, Cavan will be ranked 15th in the league rankings. Leitrim or Sligo will make the Connacht final and qualify for the All-Ireland series. This means that only the top 14 league teams will qualify. If Cavan make the Ulster final, the 14th ranked county will lose out. The top 12 should be safe. Counties finishing 13th and 14th know they are on thin ice.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 12/03/2023 21:16:22    2463630

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