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All Ireland SFC And Tailteann Cup 2023 Clarity

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Replying To macca999:  "Ciaran Whelan on the latest Podcast with RTE mentioning Cavan could be extra motivated to finish top of Division 3 this weekend as Westmeath get to a Leinster Final as would mean they enter Sam Maguire.

Some here have said its not the true? Either way, again shows its not clear cut if someone like Ciaran Whelan doesn't know.

This example raises question also, if true that westmeath getting to Leinster final adds extra place to Division 3, does it go to the team that finishes top of the table or whoever wins the div 3 league final?"
Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 25/03/2023 10:53:29    2466396

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit."
How many times! This is NOT correct. I heard Ciaran Whelan say this also and was amazed by his lack of understanding.
He also didn't understand that it is irrelevant who comes first or second in the league phase in Division 3. The winner of the Division 3 final ranks ahead (15th) of the loser (16th). But it doesn't really matter in this case as number 15 cannot qualify for the Sam Maguire this year via the league.
See earlier post on this. [url=]https://hoganstand.com/Forum/FindPost?MessageID=2465619

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 135 - 25/03/2023 13:07:54    2466436

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Westmeath getting to a Leinster final gives an extra qualifying spot to the league. The Division 3 winner would benefit."
No, it would make them a 2nd seed instead of a 4th seed.
But the same 16 Counties would still qualify.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 25/03/2023 14:25:30    2466472

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "How many times! This is NOT correct. I heard Ciaran Whelan say this also and was amazed by his lack of understanding.
He also didn't understand that it is irrelevant who comes first or second in the league phase in Division 3. The winner of the Division 3 final ranks ahead (15th) of the loser (16th). But it doesn't really matter in this case as number 15 cannot qualify for the Sam Maguire this year via the league.
See earlier post on this. Yes, that's right. In 2023, the lopsided Connacht draw is what denies the 15th seeded Div 3 Champ a Tier 1 berth.

To guarantee Div 3 Finalists a carrot, their seeding should be tweaked to 13 & 14, putting Div 2 5th & 6th on thin ice each year instead.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 25/03/2023 15:52:30    2466509

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I want to give the benefit of the doubt here.

Recently, I read a piece by John Fogarty (Examiner) explaining how the AIC works and he also mentioned something like 'if Westmeath gets to a Leinster Final, it'll free up another league berth for someone else'. As I highly respect John, I scratched my head until I came up with another way of thinking.

You could start with saying that 9 berths are reserved for Prov Finalists/Prior Tailteann Champ, with remaining 7 berths for other top league placings. If Westmeath repeats as Lein Finalist, then the 9 drops to 8 and the 7 climbs to another 8. Semantics - to my mind, whether 7 or 8 from the league, either count is part of the Top 14 (my way of looking at it).

Clear?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 26/03/2023 17:21:35    2466781

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Replying To omahant:  "I want to give the benefit of the doubt here.

Recently, I read a piece by John Fogarty (Examiner) explaining how the AIC works and he also mentioned something like 'if Westmeath gets to a Leinster Final, it'll free up another league berth for someone else'. As I highly respect John, I scratched my head until I came up with another way of thinking.

You could start with saying that 9 berths are reserved for Prov Finalists/Prior Tailteann Champ, with remaining 7 berths for other top league placings. If Westmeath repeats as Lein Finalist, then the 9 drops to 8 and the 7 climbs to another 8. Semantics - to my mind, whether 7 or 8 from the league, either count is part of the Top 14 (my way of looking at it).

Clear?"
If the league top 14 make the provincial finals, the All-Ireland series will be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
If Westmeath make the Leinster final, the All-Ireland series will still be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
The reason being that Westmeath making the provincial final does free up a spot for the league. At the same time it means that 1 county in the top 14 will have missed out on the provincial final. The extra league spot is taken by the 14th team.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 26/03/2023 19:13:09    2466863

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the league top 14 make the provincial finals, the All-Ireland series will be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
If Westmeath make the Leinster final, the All-Ireland series will still be the top 14, Westmeath and Sligo or Leitrim.
The reason being that Westmeath making the provincial final does free up a spot for the league. At the same time it means that 1 county in the top 14 will have missed out on the provincial final. The extra league spot is taken by the 14th team."
Would you tweak the seeding for 'Div 3 top 2' to 13 & 14 - wouldn't teams in Top Div 3/Bottom Div 2 strive more to get into Sam?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 28/03/2023 16:23:16    2467392

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Replying To omahant:  "Would you tweak the seeding for 'Div 3 top 2' to 13 & 14 - wouldn't teams in Top Div 3/Bottom Div 2 strive more to get into Sam?"
The league ladder is 1 to 32. Promoted teams ranked above relegated teams. There can be no jumping that agreed ladder through league qualification. By all means gain qualification through provincial championships and the Tailteann Cup.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 28/03/2023 17:34:18    2467426

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The league ladder is 1 to 32. Promoted teams ranked above relegated teams. There can be no jumping that agreed ladder through league qualification. By all means gain qualification through provincial championships and the Tailteann Cup."
That 1 to 32 is determined 'after' applying promotion/relegation (div composition of the following year's league). I think there is more to gain by ranking Div 2 5th/6th, in addition to 7th/8th (Div 2 bottom 4), lower than 'Div 3 top 2' for the purpose of Sam seeding, than sticking with the 'purity' of your argument (and it is pure/valid).

Or, how about a two-group 'mid 16' in the NFL (Divs 1, 2A/2B & 3) - then the top 3 in each middle group would likely make Sam with your ranking in tact, while only the group winners would go up?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 29/03/2023 15:07:36    2467603

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Replying To omahant:  "That 1 to 32 is determined 'after' applying promotion/relegation (div composition of the following year's league). I think there is more to gain by ranking Div 2 5th/6th, in addition to 7th/8th (Div 2 bottom 4), lower than 'Div 3 top 2' for the purpose of Sam seeding, than sticking with the 'purity' of your argument (and it is pure/valid).

Or, how about a two-group 'mid 16' in the NFL (Divs 1, 2A/2B & 3) - then the top 3 in each middle group would likely make Sam with your ranking in tact, while only the group winners would go up?"
If the top 2 in Division 3 are to be ranked 5th and 6th in Division 2, they can earn it on the field of play in Division 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 29/03/2023 16:02:50    2467630

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the top 2 in Division 3 are to be ranked 5th and 6th in Division 2, they can earn it on the field of play in Division 2."
Would a two groups of 8 'mid 16' be more exciting, than current Divs 2 & 3?
There's really not much between most of those teams.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 29/03/2023 19:41:55    2467687

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Replying To omahant:  "Would a two groups of 8 'mid 16' be more exciting, than current Divs 2 & 3?
There's really not much between most of those teams."
Not for me but I don't make these decisions! ;-)
The league is great as it is. The only reason to change the league is if divisions of 6 are required to allow groups of 5 in the championship within the split season timescale. The GAA admit themselves that the current format is a start. After a full season of intercounty and club games, the structure can be reassessed for where changes might be required.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 30/03/2023 17:27:49    2467868

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Not for me but I don't make these decisions! ;-)
The league is great as it is. The only reason to change the league is if divisions of 6 are required to allow groups of 5 in the championship within the split season timescale. The GAA admit themselves that the current format is a start. After a full season of intercounty and club games, the structure can be reassessed for where changes might be required."
Of course you are making those decisions :)
Really, isn't the Super 16, 4x4 SFC all yours? - they are listening to you it seems.

I think I'm more disposed to one larger group phase, leading to the AIC KO (maybe group winners can be akin to league titles).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 31/03/2023 16:41:49    2468033

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Replying To omahant:  "Of course you are making those decisions :)
Really, isn't the Super 16, 4x4 SFC all yours? - they are listening to you it seems.

I think I'm more disposed to one larger group phase, leading to the AIC KO (maybe group winners can be akin to league titles)."
I was an advocate of the McDonagh winner being automatically promoted to their provincial championship, with the 6th placed team in the 6 team provincial championship relegated. However they got there, they have ironed out that flaw.
On football, I'm in favour 4 groups of 5. 2 home games and 2 away games. 2 weeks have to be found somewhere for it to fit in.
The provincial championships could reduce to knockout groups of 4. 4 teams could compete in the 4 provincial championships. That's 16 teams.
4 teams could compete in an Ulster Conference and 4 teams in a Leinster Conference. That's 8 teams.
2 Connacht and 2 Munster teams can compete in a Connacht-Munster Shield. 1 Ulster and 3 Leinster teams can compete in a Leinster-Ulster Shield. That's the remaining 8 teams.
The provincial championships and conferences would be played over 2 weekends.
Connacht Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous shield winner if from Connacht and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Munster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous shield winner if from Munster and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams on total.
Connacht-Munster Shield: 4 counties outside of their provincial championship.
Ulster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous conference winner and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Ulster Conference: Previous shield winner if from Ulster and remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous conference winner and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster Conference: Previous shield winner if from Leinster and remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster-Ulster Shield: 4 counties outside of their provincial championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 01/04/2023 08:35:32    2468074

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Replying To omahant:  "I want to give the benefit of the doubt here.

Recently, I read a piece by John Fogarty (Examiner) explaining how the AIC works and he also mentioned something like 'if Westmeath gets to a Leinster Final, it'll free up another league berth for someone else'. As I highly respect John, I scratched my head until I came up with another way of thinking.

You could start with saying that 9 berths are reserved for Prov Finalists/Prior Tailteann Champ, with remaining 7 berths for other top league placings. If Westmeath repeats as Lein Finalist, then the 9 drops to 8 and the 7 climbs to another 8. Semantics - to my mind, whether 7 or 8 from the league, either count is part of the Top 14 (my way of looking at it).

Clear?"
Just saw another journalist going astray in today's Sunday Indo....Sean McGoldrick wrote the following about Cavan's Div 3 title....

It also provides them with a possible back road route to the All-Ireland championship. They can qualify automatically by reaching the Ulster final but failing that if Tailteann Cup winners Westmeath reach the Leinster decider it will free up a spot for the Division 3 champions.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 02/04/2023 13:36:15    2468244

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I was an advocate of the McDonagh winner being automatically promoted to their provincial championship, with the 6th placed team in the 6 team provincial championship relegated. However they got there, they have ironed out that flaw.
On football, I'm in favour 4 groups of 5. 2 home games and 2 away games. 2 weeks have to be found somewhere for it to fit in.
The provincial championships could reduce to knockout groups of 4. 4 teams could compete in the 4 provincial championships. That's 16 teams.
4 teams could compete in an Ulster Conference and 4 teams in a Leinster Conference. That's 8 teams.
2 Connacht and 2 Munster teams can compete in a Connacht-Munster Shield. 1 Ulster and 3 Leinster teams can compete in a Leinster-Ulster Shield. That's the remaining 8 teams.
The provincial championships and conferences would be played over 2 weekends.
Connacht Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous shield winner if from Connacht and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Munster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous shield winner if from Munster and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams on total.
Connacht-Munster Shield: 4 counties outside of their provincial championship.
Ulster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous conference winner and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Ulster Conference: Previous shield winner if from Ulster and remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster Championship: Previous provincial winner, previous conference winner and the remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster Conference: Previous shield winner if from Leinster and remainder on league ranking for 4 teams in total.
Leinster-Ulster Shield: 4 counties outside of their provincial championship."
The 5-team count in Munster hurling works well - I think it works better than 4s, especially when 3 of 5 advances.

I'd be for those "Championships" - but I think the "Conferences" and particularly, the "Shields" could be flops (although promotion is a carrot).

Maybe the Conference winners should continue to a National Tier 2.

As the Shield is Ter 3, maybe the Conn/Muns group should be a Conference too?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 02/04/2023 14:01:04    2468250

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Replying To omahant:  "Just saw another journalist going astray in today's Sunday Indo....Sean McGoldrick wrote the following about Cavan's Div 3 title....

It also provides them with a possible back road route to the All-Ireland championship. They can qualify automatically by reaching the Ulster final but failing that if Tailteann Cup winners Westmeath reach the Leinster decider it will free up a spot for the Division 3 champions."
An easy mistake to make.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 02/04/2023 14:03:07    2468251

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Replying To omahant:  "The 5-team count in Munster hurling works well - I think it works better than 4s, especially when 3 of 5 advances.

I'd be for those "Championships" - but I think the "Conferences" and particularly, the "Shields" could be flops (although promotion is a carrot).

Maybe the Conference winners should continue to a National Tier 2.

As the Shield is Ter 3, maybe the Conn/Muns group should be a Conference too?"
Can we not have a Tailtean Cup competition based solely on our hurling structure, simple and straight forward.?

Cuhullain (Kildare) - Posts: 300 - 02/04/2023 18:41:40    2468346

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Replying To legendzxix:  "An easy mistake to make."
It reflects a convoluted system, shouldn't happen and can easily be avoided:

Determine how many teams (call it X) from the 'NFL Bottom 16' that have advanced to AIC Tier 1 as Prov Finalist or prior year Tier 2 Champ - in 2023, we start with 2, WM and Sligo/Leitrim/Lon/NY, but this could grow.

Then the NFL will ALWAYS advance the 'Top 16-X'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 03/04/2023 15:14:04    2468577

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Replying To omahant:  "It reflects a convoluted system, shouldn't happen and can easily be avoided:

Determine how many teams (call it X) from the 'NFL Bottom 16' that have advanced to AIC Tier 1 as Prov Finalist or prior year Tier 2 Champ - in 2023, we start with 2, WM and Sligo/Leitrim/Lon/NY, but this could grow.

Then the NFL will ALWAYS advance the 'Top 16-X'."
Way to go, don't forget mc2.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2289 - 03/04/2023 16:02:28    2468596

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