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Replying To Fkd12: "I think the idea of 3 emerging from the group is to keep all games meaningful and have no dead rubber games" That aspect is ridiculous in my view. In both competitions - the AI and the TC - each group will have 6 matches just to eliminate one team.
I think people will soon cop on to that and vote with their feet by staying away until it really starts which is the knock out rounds. Managers also will probably rest key players for selected group games especially if they know they probably won't make top in their group but will still qualify. I think a lot of these group matches will turn into shadow boxing contests.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 12/04/2023 18:58:58
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Replying To omahant: " Replying To CeachtPeile: "[quote=Bawner: "As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster." This is wrong on two fronts. (1) There are only seven places guaranteed from the league each year (the first six teams in Division 1 and the Division 2 winner). There are eight places allocated to the provincial finalists and one to the Tailteann Cup winners. (2) Westmeath qualifying for the Leinster final would have no effect other than changing Westmeath's seeding pot from pot 4 to pots 1 or 2. It does not create an extra qualifying slot as Westmeath have already qualified. The only option for Meath is to qualify for a Leinster final. If that happens then Kildare are in danger unless they also qualify for a Leinster final. If that were to happen then Cork are out of Sam. If, on top of that, Cavan or Down qualified for the Ulster final then Louth would be out. In the unlikely event of Fermanagh also qualifying for the Ulster final, then Donegal would be next to be out. In the exceedingly unlikely event of Tipperary beating Kerry then Armagh would be next to go. Derry, who would be next in line to be out, are guaranteed a Sam spot as either Galway or Roscommon from Division 1 will be a provincial finalist."
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0411/1376399-championship-permutations-field-for-sam-taking-shape/
Jack_Sparrow (Westmeath) - Posts: 1014 - 12/04/2023 20:12:41
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Replying To Fkd12: "I think the idea of 3 emerging from the group is to keep all games meaningful and have no dead rubber games" Yes, I think this was the reason. To be fair it will make the last round of games very interesting
Temple56 (Westmeath) - Posts: 383 - 13/04/2023 09:18:16
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Replying To Onion Breath: "That aspect is ridiculous in my view. In both competitions - the AI and the TC - each group will have 6 matches just to eliminate one team.
I think people will soon cop on to that and vote with their feet by staying away until it really starts which is the knock out rounds. Managers also will probably rest key players for selected group games especially if they know they probably won't make top in their group but will still qualify. I think a lot of these group matches will turn into shadow boxing contests." Yes
It's a very weird season then, constant up and downs.
There were a couple of big issues with the super 8s championship.
It didn't really address provincial imbalances very well and you'd a strange momentum to the season where it was knockout championship followed by a group stage before playoffs.
These issues remain with the new setup and the momentum of the season is maybe even worse now.
League meaningful for all teams, provincials much less important now for the top teams, followed by a group stage that is a bit low stakes and then into the knockout rounds.
Feels like they go too much out of their way to not have dead rubbers and also to be all things to all men and end up just producing a mess of a season.
I struggle to see that what we've got will be a long term solution to be honest.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 13/04/2023 12:41:07
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Replying To Temple56: "Yes, I think this was the reason. To be fair it will make the last round of games very interesting" With the first game, everyone will be eager to get a win. The second game will be eagerness for the win to qualify or the win to remain in the hunt. In the final round the prize is a quarter-final or a preliminary round banana skin.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7820 - 13/04/2023 14:34:59
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Replying To legendzxix: "With the first game, everyone will be eager to get a win. The second game will be eagerness for the win to qualify or the win to remain in the hunt. In the final round the prize is a quarter-final or a preliminary round banana skin." The draw for the group stage will involve the provincial winners as seeds 1, the provincial runners-up as seeds 2, etc. with an 'open draw' giving 4 groups, each group consisting of a seed 1, a seed 2, a seed 3 and a seed 4.
However, the GAA Master Calendar states that SFC RR1 (Involving CSFC & MSFC Finalists) takes place on May 20/21 which suggests that some element of seeding must take place in selecting the groups???
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 13/04/2023 15:50:39
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Replying To Aibrean: "The draw for the group stage will involve the provincial winners as seeds 1, the provincial runners-up as seeds 2, etc. with an 'open draw' giving 4 groups, each group consisting of a seed 1, a seed 2, a seed 3 and a seed 4.
However, the GAA Master Calendar states that SFC RR1 (Involving CSFC & MSFC Finalists) takes place on May 20/21 which suggests that some element of seeding must take place in selecting the groups???" There is some I believe. Like I think Leinster losing finalists links up with Ulster winners, and so on through the 4 groups (or at least you definitely don't get drawn with same provincial finalist). Then the remaining 7 League qualifying teams are drawn, with only stipulation to avoid repeat fixtures from provincials if possible to do so. I'll need to read back up on this. It's from memory, could be wrong, but this sticks out for me.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2378 - 13/04/2023 16:03:37
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Replying To Aibrean: "The draw for the group stage will involve the provincial winners as seeds 1, the provincial runners-up as seeds 2, etc. with an 'open draw' giving 4 groups, each group consisting of a seed 1, a seed 2, a seed 3 and a seed 4.
However, the GAA Master Calendar states that SFC RR1 (Involving CSFC & MSFC Finalists) takes place on May 20/21 which suggests that some element of seeding must take place in selecting the groups???" A lot of people thought that. The GAA seemed to clarify recently that that is not the case. The Leinster and Ulster finalists will be given two weeks to get ready for the group stage. It seems that all other teams will play the week after the Leinster and Ulster finals.
1. Munster and Connacht finals.
2. Leinster and Ulster finals.
3. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 excluding Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
4. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 featuring Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
5. Round 2 for all. Provincial finalists away.
6. Weekend off.
7. Round 3 for all. Neutral venue except for Dublin! :-(
8. Preliminary quarter-finals (2nd at home v 3rd)
9. Quarter-finals
10. Weekend off
11. Semi-finals
12. Weekend off
13. All-Ireland Final!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7820 - 13/04/2023 16:11:33
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Replying To legendzxix: "A lot of people thought that. The GAA seemed to clarify recently that that is not the case. The Leinster and Ulster finalists will be given two weeks to get ready for the group stage. It seems that all other teams will play the week after the Leinster and Ulster finals.
1. Munster and Connacht finals.
2. Leinster and Ulster finals.
3. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 excluding Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
4. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 featuring Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
5. Round 2 for all. Provincial finalists away.
6. Weekend off.
7. Round 3 for all. Neutral venue except for Dublin! :-(
8. Preliminary quarter-finals (2nd at home v 3rd)
9. Quarter-finals
10. Weekend off
11. Semi-finals
12. Weekend off
13. All-Ireland Final!" Counties need to kick up over Croke Park being sneaked in as Dublin's "Neutral" game.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1397 - 13/04/2023 16:27:55
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Counties need to kick up over Croke Park being sneaked in as Dublin's "Neutral" game." That argument was had back when the Super 8s started.
The powers that be backed Dublin. They would do so again, no doubt.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 13/04/2023 17:35:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "A lot of people thought that. The GAA seemed to clarify recently that that is not the case. The Leinster and Ulster finalists will be given two weeks to get ready for the group stage. It seems that all other teams will play the week after the Leinster and Ulster finals.
1. Munster and Connacht finals.
2. Leinster and Ulster finals.
3. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 excluding Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
4. All-Ireland group stage Round 1 featuring Leinster and Ulster finalists. Provincial finalists at home.
5. Round 2 for all. Provincial finalists away.
6. Weekend off.
7. Round 3 for all. Neutral venue except for Dublin! :-(
8. Preliminary quarter-finals (2nd at home v 3rd)
9. Quarter-finals
10. Weekend off
11. Semi-finals
12. Weekend off
13. All-Ireland Final!" 'seemed to clarify' ...how? where?
So, are you saying the group draw is, or is not, open.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 13/04/2023 19:06:15
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Counties need to kick up over Croke Park being sneaked in as Dublin's "Neutral" game." Why? You can't move the National Stadium from where it is. And it has to be utilized.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 13/04/2023 19:49:05
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Replying To foreveryoung: "Why? You can't move the National Stadium from where it is. And it has to be utilized." Read what I wrote.
Croke Park is not a NEUTRAL venue for Dublin.
Last game in Round Robin is to be at a NEUTRAL venue per Treoir Oifigiuil.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1397 - 14/04/2023 10:55:27
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Why are there only 2 championship games this weekend and a glut of them next weekend?
KnockaineyAbú (Limerick) - Posts: 96 - 14/04/2023 12:15:00
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My understanding is that Munster winner and Connacht runner up in one group, Connacht winner and Munster runner up in another, and the same with Ulster and Leinster.
If all 4 provincial winners get to semis, then it will be Munster Champs v Connacht Champs and Leinster v Ulster.
Looks like preliminary quarter finals and quarter finals are open draw, but repeats of provincial finals and repeats of matches played at "group" stage will be avoided where possible. So say Kerry/Sligo/ Tyrone/Kildare in group A, they can't meet each other again until semi final.
We already have Mayo as a third seed, and the losers of Galway/Roscommon will be a third seed. Assuming Dublin and Kerry make the provincial finals then I think 2 of Tyrone/Monaghan/Derry are the other third seeds. That makes for some tasty matches.
Bawner (Sligo) - Posts: 39 - 14/04/2023 14:19:21
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I hope this clears up how Westmeath qualifying for Leinster won't let Meath back into the race for Sam. Below are the top 16 teams ranked by league positions in the way we all know by now like the back of our hands. In brackets afterwards are the qualification methods for each county for the Sam Maguire main event assuming Westmeath don't make the Leinster final, and assuming they do.
Key:
CH: Provincial champions
RU: Provincial runners-up
Qx: After the 2022 Tailteann Cup winners and the seven/eight 2023 provincial finalists are placed in the competition, this team is the xth team overall to be added. For example, Mayo are 10th to be added to the Sam Maguire after the eight provincial champions and 2022 Tailteann Cup winners are added, so they're marked as Q10.
TC: Demoted to this year's Tailteann Cup
TCC: 2022 Tailteann Cup championn (Westmeath).
1. Mayo (Q10/Q9)
2. Galway (CH/CH)
3. Roscommon (Q11/Q10)
4. Tyrone (CH/CH)
5. Kerry (CH/CH)
6. Monaghan (Q12/Q11)
7. Dublin (CH/CH)
8. Derry (Q13/Q12)
9. Armagh (RU/RU)
10. Donegal (Q14/Q13)
11. Louth (RU/Q14)
12. Cork (Q15/Q15)
13. Kildare (Q16/Q16)
14. Meath (TC/TC)
15. Cavan (TC/TC)
16. Fermanagh (TC/TC)
And...
17/18. Clare/Limerick (RU/RU)
23/-. Sligo/New York (RU/RU)
20. Westmeath (TCC/TCC & RU)
In all cases I've assumed that all remaining championship games will be won by the team with the higher league position, except of course in scenario 2, in which Westmeath make the Leinster final.
We can now see that even though it looks as though a league place will be freed up by a Westmeath semifinal win (Mayo go from 10th entrant to 9th, suggesting the 16th would become the 15th and the next team on the list (Meath) would become 16th), instead we see that an otherwise qualified Leinster finalist (in this example Louth) merely joins the competition on their League position. To put it another way, the number of teams qualifying on League position does increase from 7 to 8, no question, but that spot is taken by a top team that would have qualified anyway if Westmeath hadn't qualified for the Leinster final.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 14/04/2023 19:31:18
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Counties need to kick up over Croke Park being sneaked in as Dublin's "Neutral" game." here we go again, YET AGAIN , can lads not come up with something original to whinge about? CROKE PARK HAPPENS TO BE IN DUBLIN, U CANT PUT IT ON A TROLLY AND MOVE IT TO BOYLE FOR A WEEKEND
Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2840 - 15/04/2023 11:52:20
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Replying To Stmunnsriver: "here we go again, YET AGAIN , can lads not come up with something original to whinge about? CROKE PARK HAPPENS TO BE IN DUBLIN, U CANT PUT IT ON A TROLLY AND MOVE IT TO BOYLE FOR A WEEKEND" Rule book says Neutral Venue in game 3.
Croke Park is IN DUBLIN therefore not neutral for Dublin's 3rd game.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1397 - 15/04/2023 12:18:15
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Replying To Stmunnsriver: "here we go again, YET AGAIN , can lads not come up with something original to whinge about? CROKE PARK HAPPENS TO BE IN DUBLIN, U CANT PUT IT ON A TROLLY AND MOVE IT TO BOYLE FOR A WEEKEND" You could have Dublin against say Donegal in Clones though.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 15/04/2023 12:29:56
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Replying To Bawner: "My understanding is that Munster winner and Connacht runner up in one group, Connacht winner and Munster runner up in another, and the same with Ulster and Leinster.
If all 4 provincial winners get to semis, then it will be Munster Champs v Connacht Champs and Leinster v Ulster.
Looks like preliminary quarter finals and quarter finals are open draw, but repeats of provincial finals and repeats of matches played at "group" stage will be avoided where possible. So say Kerry/Sligo/ Tyrone/Kildare in group A, they can't meet each other again until semi final.
We already have Mayo as a third seed, and the losers of Galway/Roscommon will be a third seed. Assuming Dublin and Kerry make the provincial finals then I think 2 of Tyrone/Monaghan/Derry are the other third seeds. That makes for some tasty matches." Semi Final is an Open draw with repeat fixtures avoided. The fixed draw re provincial champions is over.
Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 15/04/2023 14:34:25
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