National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It isn't double elimination.

There's no advantage gained from winning the first round.

Every team plays in the second round and every round 2 winner goes through to the quarterfinals.

There's no round 3 with the round 2A losers playing the 2B winners for a quarter final spot.

It's pure nonsense some of the stuff the GAA come up with at times."
Au contraire Rodders!

Proposal B would be played out on the following lines:

16 Teams involved

Rd 1: 8 Teams v 8 Teams

Rd 2a: 4 Winners Rd 1 v 4 Winners Rd 1

Rd 2b: 4 Losers Rd 1 v 4 Losers Rd 1

Rd 3: 4 Rd 2b Winners v 4 Rd 2a Losers

QF: 4 Rd 2a Winners v 4 Rd 3 Winners

Semi-finals & Final

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 05/07/2019 23:42:59    2206080

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The term Tier 2 Championship has been used a lot. Might they call it Championship 2 or something like that?

The hurling lower tier competitions should be renamed as well:
Championship 1 = McDonagh Cup (Some might argue against this being called Championship 1 but it does offer a preliminary quarter-final spot and places it firmly top of the non-provincial pyramid.)
Championship 2 = Ring Cup
Championship 3 = Rackard Cup
Championship 4 = Meagher Cup

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 05/07/2019 23:53:33    2206083

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Au contraire Rodders!

Proposal B would be played out on the following lines:

16 Teams involved

Rd 1: 8 Teams v 8 Teams

Rd 2a: 4 Winners Rd 1 v 4 Winners Rd 1

Rd 2b: 4 Losers Rd 1 v 4 Losers Rd 1

Rd 3: 4 Rd 2b Winners v 4 Rd 2a Losers

QF: 4 Rd 2a Winners v 4 Rd 3 Winners

Semi-finals & Final"
Ah fair enough. I must have read it incorrectly elsewhere, it did seem like a dumb solution. That is a good bit better.

If they organise for the league to be March to May with break weekends for club action it would be a decent system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 06/07/2019 09:24:50    2206139

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The fairness of provincial finalists qualifying is debatable. Munster and Connaught have less teams so more than likely a game less to qualify via provincial championship.

On the other side of the argument, if a province has a good number of teams going well, they will be very well represented in the qualifiers.

If the system was in place this year, Monaghan and Fermanagh would be benefitting at the expense of Offaly and Laois.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 06/07/2019 10:26:30    2206166

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Here would be an extra incentive for teams in the B championships, if played early enough both finalists qualify for the super 8s, in the A championship instead of 4 teams qualifying for super 8s through the qualifiers there should only be 2 teams, therefore you would have 4 provincial champions, 2 qualifiers and the 2 finalists from the B championship

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 06/07/2019 14:14:17    2206247

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Replying To riverboys:  "Here would be an extra incentive for teams in the B championships, if played early enough both finalists qualify for the super 8s, in the A championship instead of 4 teams qualifying for super 8s through the qualifiers there should only be 2 teams, therefore you would have 4 provincial champions, 2 qualifiers and the 2 finalists from the B championship"
Not at all. You cannot be rewarding being in the second tier championship like that.

The McDonagh is different as they accepted being excluded from the provincial championships. They have to play top teams at some stage.

The Tier 2 teams are going to be excluded from the qualifiers. The reward for winning Tier 2 will be guaranteed a place in the qualifiers of the following year.

Division 2 teams will not be happy about losing a qualifier spot to a lower division provincial finalist. 2020 Division 3 teams like Cork, Tipperary and Down will not be happy about being excluded also.

The GAA might have to back down a bit and agree that it'll be 8 teams only in Tier 2 to start with. I know Whammo disagrees but when it comes to lobbying, counter arguments and voting, Horan might settle for an 8 team Tier 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 06/07/2019 15:50:59    2206276

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The term Tier 2 Championship has been used a lot. Might they call it Championship 2 or something like that?

The hurling lower tier competitions should be renamed as well:
Championship 1 = McDonagh Cup (Some might argue against this being called Championship 1 but it does offer a preliminary quarter-final spot and places it firmly top of the non-provincial pyramid.)
Championship 2 = Ring Cup
Championship 3 = Rackard Cup
Championship 4 = Meagher Cup"
Agreed, too many tournament with legends names, I don't know which tier is higher then the other with exception of the Joe McDonagh cup , but with your names you'd know easily

PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 06/07/2019 16:53:47    2206295

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Liam McCarthy - All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship
Joe McDonagh Cup - All-Ireland Senior B Hurling Championship
Christy Ring Cup - All-Ireland Intermediate Hurling Championship
Nicky Rackard Cup - All-Ireland Junior Hurling Championship
Lory Meagher Cup - All-Ireland Junior B Hurling Championship

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/07/2019 18:15:59    2206346

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Tyrone and Cavan shows football needs a complete overhaul. The gap between each division is making the sport hard to watch. And we still have Tyrone v Roscommon, Dublin v Cork/Laois and Donegal/Kerry V Meath/Clare etc in the Super 8's. What is the point anymore?

Time to have more than one competition, I'd say for the future of football we probably need 4 competitions like the national league due to the gap between teams. At least this way teams have an opportunity of promotion and we get to watch games which are least competitive. 11 thousand at tonight's game show that apathy has arrived. Let the 8 best teams in the country battle it out during the summer and provide the other competitions with a marketing/media package - all counties would have some big summer games in the various competitions with a chance of success. If you're good enough you'll move through the grades.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 739 - 06/07/2019 18:22:11    2206350

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3 tiers is enough. The finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships can be held before the semi-finals of the senior championship.

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (Tier 1)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Roscommon
Monaghan
Cavan
Mayo
Dublin

Group A

Kerry
Tyrone
Meath
Galway
Donegal

All-Ireland Intermediate Football Championship (Tier 2)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Fermanagh
Louth
Cork
Kildare
Clare

Group B

Armagh
Tipperary
Laois
Down
Westmeath

All-Ireland Junior Football Championship (Tier 3)

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6

1st - Semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-finals.

Group A

Wicklow
Carlow
Limerick
Wexford
Offaly
Leitrim

Group B

Sligo
Waterford
Antrim
Longford
London
Derry

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/07/2019 19:15:00    2206380

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If the B champions go into the A champ the next season does an A team go down, will we have 17 teams the following year then 18 then 19, its a stupid idea, they have to revert to League placing and in that way there is no reward for winning the B competition

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 06/07/2019 20:42:51    2206458

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Replying To sam1884:  "Tyrone and Cavan shows football needs a complete overhaul. The gap between each division is making the sport hard to watch. And we still have Tyrone v Roscommon, Dublin v Cork/Laois and Donegal/Kerry V Meath/Clare etc in the Super 8's. What is the point anymore?

Time to have more than one competition, I'd say for the future of football we probably need 4 competitions like the national league due to the gap between teams. At least this way teams have an opportunity of promotion and we get to watch games which are least competitive. 11 thousand at tonight's game show that apathy has arrived. Let the 8 best teams in the country battle it out during the summer and provide the other competitions with a marketing/media package - all counties would have some big summer games in the various competitions with a chance of success. If you're good enough you'll move through the grades."
Cavan would probably have been up and down between division 1 and 2 over the last few years.

Hammerings can and will happen regardless of the structure.

I think there's a lot of harm caused just by looking at games where there's been a freak result and trying to control for it. We shouldn't try to control for it. Big defeats can happen occasionally.

There's less talk of games like Armagh v Mayo where a lower tier team put up a strong battle against one of the top challengers.

Those sorts of games are a huge part of the excitement of our sport and your proposition would restrict that.

I strongly feel it's not the way to go.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 07/07/2019 09:42:18    2206795

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Liam McCarthy - All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship
Joe McDonagh Cup - All-Ireland Senior B Hurling Championship
Christy Ring Cup - All-Ireland Intermediate Hurling Championship
Nicky Rackard Cup - All-Ireland Junior Hurling Championship
Lory Meagher Cup - All-Ireland Junior B Hurling Championship"
I think there all considered Senior Hurling and tiered within that. That's why I opted for the naming structure I suggested.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 07/07/2019 14:32:28    2206999

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I think there all considered Senior Hurling and tiered within that. That's why I opted for the naming structure I suggested."
Senior, Intermediate, and Junior refer to tiers at club level. The current intermediate championship is a joke and has no value. The terms should be used for the tiers instead. I'd rather keep the names of the hurlers rather than adopt your naming structure.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 07/07/2019 14:55:47    2207021

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Senior, Intermediate, and Junior refer to tiers at club level. The current intermediate championship is a joke and has no value. The terms should be used for the tiers instead. I'd rather keep the names of the hurlers rather than adopt your naming structure."
Nay you don't know what I talking about, being a same sex gaelic football fan you have no clue of structures that work in other codes. These are GAA standards not bloody labels or club behomme. Senior = tier one counties (clubs), Inter = tier two counties (clubs) and Junior = tier 3 counties (clubs) they are called reality but that doesn't exist within gaelic football which is why it is the basket case it is.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4513 - 08/07/2019 00:10:27    2207530

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Laois beating Dublin in the hurling yesterday proves that a 2nd tier can work with the right incentive at the end - a route back into the championship. Make it so that the winner of tier 2 gets to play an additional qualifier against the team with the least amount of games played to that point so for example Cork had only played 2 matches before Saturday so they would play an additional match against the tier 2 winners. The likelihood is that the result would be something similar to the hammering that Cork gave Laois but it would ar least give an incentive to teams in the competition.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1565 - 08/07/2019 07:32:24    2207557

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "3 tiers is enough. The finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships can be held before the semi-finals of the senior championship.

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (Tier 1)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Roscommon
Monaghan
Cavan
Mayo
Dublin

Group A

Kerry
Tyrone
Meath
Galway
Donegal

All-Ireland Intermediate Football Championship (Tier 2)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Fermanagh
Louth
Cork
Kildare
Clare

Group B

Armagh
Tipperary
Laois
Down
Westmeath

All-Ireland Junior Football Championship (Tier 3)

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6

1st - Semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-finals.

Group A

Wicklow
Carlow
Limerick
Wexford
Offaly
Leitrim

Group B

Sligo
Waterford
Antrim
Longford
London
Derry"
Really? Your proposal would condemn a proud football county like Derry to oblivion. Let the championship the way it is. Counties like Down have come from nowhere to win All Ireland.

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 551 - 08/07/2019 13:44:17    2207824

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Replying To Rockies:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "3 tiers is enough. The finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships can be held before the semi-finals of the senior championship.

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (Tier 1)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Roscommon
Monaghan
Cavan
Mayo
Dublin

Group A

Kerry
Tyrone
Meath
Galway
Donegal

All-Ireland Intermediate Football Championship (Tier 2)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Fermanagh
Louth
Cork
Kildare
Clare

Group B

Armagh
Tipperary
Laois
Down
Westmeath

All-Ireland Junior Football Championship (Tier 3)

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6

1st - Semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-finals.

Group A

Wicklow
Carlow
Limerick
Wexford
Offaly
Leitrim

Group B

Sligo
Waterford
Antrim
Longford
London
Derry"
Really? Your proposal would condemn a proud football county like Derry to oblivion. Let the championship the way it is. Counties like Down have come from nowhere to win All Ireland."
It wouldn't. Derry are responsible for their current situation.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 09/07/2019 16:10:32    2208522

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To Rockies:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "3 tiers is enough. The finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships can be held before the semi-finals of the senior championship.

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (Tier 1)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Roscommon
Monaghan
Cavan
Mayo
Dublin

Group A

Kerry
Tyrone
Meath
Galway
Donegal

All-Ireland Intermediate Football Championship (Tier 2)

10 teams split into 2 groups of 5.

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals.
5th - Relegated

Group A

Fermanagh
Louth
Cork
Kildare
Clare

Group B

Armagh
Tipperary
Laois
Down
Westmeath

All-Ireland Junior Football Championship (Tier 3)

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6

1st - Semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-finals.

Group A

Wicklow
Carlow
Limerick
Wexford
Offaly
Leitrim

Group B

Sligo
Waterford
Antrim
Longford
London
Derry"
Really? Your proposal would condemn a proud football county like Derry to oblivion. Let the championship the way it is. Counties like Down have come from nowhere to win All Ireland."
It wouldn't. Derry are responsible for their current situation."]They be hardly condemned. There's promotion between tiers. They could be playing top tier the following season.

I do think 20/12 splits are bad though.

Any split should be more even in my opinion.

20/12 split and you are having teams feel like they are being excluded. 12/20 split is on the elitist side of things and too many counties will end up spending their season's with little prospect of progressing.

I think a 16/16 split hits the sweet spot of the second tier retaining prestige, it also keeps the top tier as a realistic goal for most teams.

16/16 split is the natural split point.

Additionally something important is the messaging around this. It's about getting a better top tier and getting teams more matches. Including relegation is a way of getting teams playing more matches with something at stake.

With just 1 tier it is hard to give teams a competitive schedule of games that have something at stake.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 09/07/2019 17:51:02    2208573

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Hope they keep the championship as it is. Too many changes ruin the game. Down in 2010, came out of nowhere to contest All Ireland final ..,Donegal emerged from doldrums in 2011 and 2012 ,Cork in 1966, 2007 and 2019!!A lot of teams don't take league seriously and only perform for the ultimate prize. Cork performing in tier 2?? Doubt if they would even turn up

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 551 - 09/07/2019 20:40:44    2208644

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