National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I'd swap the number of teams in each tier. The semi-finals and finals will be held in Croke Park on the same weekend.

Tier 1

2 groups of 6.

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final
6th - Relegated

Group A

Cavan
Kerry
Fermanagh
Meath
Galway
Donegal

Group B

Kildare
Monaghan
Roscommon
Mayo
Tyrone
Dublin

Tier 2

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final

Group A

Carlow
Wicklow
Leitrim
Offaly
Down

Group B

Wexford
Louth
Westmeath
Waterford
Derry

Group C

Tipperary
Antrim
Sligo
Longford
Laois

Group D

Limerick
Cork
Clare
Armagh
London"
I see your point about swapping the team numbers, but you are then creating an elite group similar to hurling which makes it very difficult to break into. At least with 20 teams and an Open Draw in Tier 1, you give those mid ranking teams an opportunity to win games in Tier 1 and have a crack at advancing to an All Ireland Semi providing they get a favorable draw. I know that you are depending on getting 3-4 elite teams in one group as my original post described, but there is always the chance that the likes of Dublin will get a group with the 3 Division 3 teams.

I don't like the idea of 2nd/3rd place teams advancing to quarter finals - do this right and make it a competitive championship where only the top team advances to knockout rounds. Quarter finals are another layer of games that are not required - for me its the same as having "League Finals". If you win your respective league then there should be no need for a "final". The original point of the backdoor and qualifiers was a second chance and giving teams more games - if this tiered system comes into effect you are guaranteeing teams at least 5 Championship games (including provincials) every year.

TomSlick (Westmeath) - Posts: 2 - 03/07/2019 09:53:02    2204764

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This is what the GAA are suggesting;
1. Leinster and Ulster Preliminary Round
2. Provincial Quarter-finals
3. Provincial Semi-finals
4. Provincial Finals, Qualifier Round 1 (8 to 4) & Tier 2 Round 1
5. Qualifier Round 2 (8 to 4), Tier 2 Round 2A (Round 1 winners) & Tier 2 Round 2B (Round 1 losers)
6. Super 8s Phase 1 & Tier 2 Round 3 (Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners)
7. Super 8s Phase 2 & Tier 2 Quarter-finals (Round 2A winners and Round 3 winners)
8. Super 8s Phase 3 & Tier 2 Semi-finals
9. All-Ireland Quarter-finals & Tier 2 Final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 03/07/2019 11:16:21    2204804

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This is what the GAA are suggesting;
1. Leinster and Ulster Preliminary Round
2. Provincial Quarter-finals
3. Provincial Semi-finals
4. Provincial Finals, Qualifier Round 1 (8 to 4) & Tier 2 Round 1
5. Qualifier Round 2 (8 to 4), Tier 2 Round 2A (Round 1 winners) & Tier 2 Round 2B (Round 1 losers)
6. Super 8s Phase 1 & Tier 2 Round 3 (Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners)
7. Super 8s Phase 2 & Tier 2 Quarter-finals (Round 2A winners and Round 3 winners)
8. Super 8s Phase 3 & Tier 2 Semi-finals
9. All-Ireland Quarter-finals & Tier 2 Final."
P.S. The National Football League with be like a Preliminary Group Stage of sorts. If 3 Division 3 counties were to some how make the provincial finalsand the Tier 2 winner from the previous year is in Division 3 or 4, only Division 1 teams and the top 4 in Division 2 will be joining them in the final 16.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 03/07/2019 11:39:56    2204819

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Replying To TomSlick:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I'd swap the number of teams in each tier. The semi-finals and finals will be held in Croke Park on the same weekend.

Tier 1

2 groups of 6.

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final
6th - Relegated

Group A

Cavan
Kerry
Fermanagh
Meath
Galway
Donegal

Group B

Kildare
Monaghan
Roscommon
Mayo
Tyrone
Dublin

Tier 2

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final

Group A

Carlow
Wicklow
Leitrim
Offaly
Down

Group B

Wexford
Louth
Westmeath
Waterford
Derry

Group C

Tipperary
Antrim
Sligo
Longford
Laois

Group D

Limerick
Cork
Clare
Armagh
London"
I see your point about swapping the team numbers, but you are then creating an elite group similar to hurling which makes it very difficult to break into. At least with 20 teams and an Open Draw in Tier 1, you give those mid ranking teams an opportunity to win games in Tier 1 and have a crack at advancing to an All Ireland Semi providing they get a favorable draw. I know that you are depending on getting 3-4 elite teams in one group as my original post described, but there is always the chance that the likes of Dublin will get a group with the 3 Division 3 teams.

I don't like the idea of 2nd/3rd place teams advancing to quarter finals - do this right and make it a competitive championship where only the top team advances to knockout rounds. Quarter finals are another layer of games that are not required - for me its the same as having "League Finals". If you win your respective league then there should be no need for a "final". The original point of the backdoor and qualifiers was a second chance and giving teams more games - if this tiered system comes into effect you are guaranteeing teams at least 5 Championship games (including provincials) every year."
One team advancing from a group of 5 or 6 is setting the barrier too high. The format works well in hurling. Limerick won the All-Ireland last year despite finishing 3rd in Munster. It acts as a backdoor.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 03/07/2019 13:16:31    2204890

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I wonder did the GAA miss a trick whereby instead of creating the super 8's & a second tier championship they could have run the football championship on a round robin basis within the provincial system?

Obviously Leinster & Ulster would need to divide into two groups each and it would add to the list of games. But everyone would be in the one competition with a minimum of 3 games and would have a yardstick for progression. If the hurling format was copied the top 3 from each province could make it through to the latter stages with the third team in each province playing the provincial runners up from another. It would reward the provincial winners with some rest and gives counties a realistic chance of a quarter final berth by finishing third. Each year the quarter final berth could be a realistic target for all counties and bring them forward.

I think the Super 8's is a terrible idea to be honest. People complain about Dublin getting stronger but the super 8's affords them a chance to lose at the quarter final stage and still progress. I think the Dubs would be happy with any format, they're that good. I struggle to see how county players will buy into a second tier system. Most players plan one year ahead, I don't know of anyone who thinks '2019 great we will win the division 2 cup and then be in the top tier'. While hurling has a tiered format, at least once out of the provincial series it is pure knockout.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6218 - 03/07/2019 14:47:13    2204941

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Replying To slayer:  "I wonder did the GAA miss a trick whereby instead of creating the super 8's & a second tier championship they could have run the football championship on a round robin basis within the provincial system?

Obviously Leinster & Ulster would need to divide into two groups each and it would add to the list of games. But everyone would be in the one competition with a minimum of 3 games and would have a yardstick for progression. If the hurling format was copied the top 3 from each province could make it through to the latter stages with the third team in each province playing the provincial runners up from another. It would reward the provincial winners with some rest and gives counties a realistic chance of a quarter final berth by finishing third. Each year the quarter final berth could be a realistic target for all counties and bring them forward.

I think the Super 8's is a terrible idea to be honest. People complain about Dublin getting stronger but the super 8's affords them a chance to lose at the quarter final stage and still progress. I think the Dubs would be happy with any format, they're that good. I struggle to see how county players will buy into a second tier system. Most players plan one year ahead, I don't know of anyone who thinks '2019 great we will win the division 2 cup and then be in the top tier'. While hurling has a tiered format, at least once out of the provincial series it is pure knockout."
I agree with a lot of that.

I think it'd be different if you were talking about a chance to qualify for a better tier 1.

A tier 1 that's more like the league and then there's a real prize to win the second tier and get a full season of top tier action.

The qualifiers are the second tier already. You win through that and you get a chance at the big time this year. I don't really know what the new proposals add. You win this and next year you've a chance at a big game. A trophy at the end of the competition is only as prestigious as the effort put in to win it.

The success of a new competition will be the buy in from players. If there isn't across the board then people won't be arsed playing it. There's no amount of All Stars or PR guff that'll make it prestigious.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 03/07/2019 15:07:28    2204955

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To TomSlick:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "I'd swap the number of teams in each tier. The semi-finals and finals will be held in Croke Park on the same weekend.

Tier 1

2 groups of 6.

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final
6th - Relegated

Group A

Cavan
Kerry
Fermanagh
Meath
Galway
Donegal

Group B

Kildare
Monaghan
Roscommon
Mayo
Tyrone
Dublin

Tier 2

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final

Group A

Carlow
Wicklow
Leitrim
Offaly
Down

Group B

Wexford
Louth
Westmeath
Waterford
Derry

Group C

Tipperary
Antrim
Sligo
Longford
Laois

Group D

Limerick
Cork
Clare
Armagh
London"
I see your point about swapping the team numbers, but you are then creating an elite group similar to hurling which makes it very difficult to break into. At least with 20 teams and an Open Draw in Tier 1, you give those mid ranking teams an opportunity to win games in Tier 1 and have a crack at advancing to an All Ireland Semi providing they get a favorable draw. I know that you are depending on getting 3-4 elite teams in one group as my original post described, but there is always the chance that the likes of Dublin will get a group with the 3 Division 3 teams.

I don't like the idea of 2nd/3rd place teams advancing to quarter finals - do this right and make it a competitive championship where only the top team advances to knockout rounds. Quarter finals are another layer of games that are not required - for me its the same as having "League Finals". If you win your respective league then there should be no need for a "final". The original point of the backdoor and qualifiers was a second chance and giving teams more games - if this tiered system comes into effect you are guaranteeing teams at least 5 Championship games (including provincials) every year."
One team advancing from a group of 5 or 6 is setting the barrier too high. The format works well in hurling. Limerick won the All-Ireland last year despite finishing 3rd in Munster. It acts as a backdoor."]Yes, I agree - and high bar makes for more dead rubbers. What do you think of two-Prov groups with the top team from each respective Prov in each group representing one of 8 Prov Finalists ? -
keeps Prov Final days but more variety in group matchups ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 04/07/2019 00:16:15    2205246

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A key difference between hurling & football is that before hurling went to a tiered structure. a large number of counties had won absolutely nothing in hurling so moving to a tiered structure gave them a chance to win a trophy. It is working well.

In football over the last 30 years, Clare have won Munster, Limerick & Tipperary have drawn Munster finals, Westmeath, Laois & Kildare have won Leinster, Cavan have won Ulster, Leitrim, Sligo and Roscommon have all won Connaught. Fermanagh, Wexford & Tipp have played in All Ireland semi finals. Asking those counties to go into a lower tier is different to what happened in hurling. You are asking them to take a step backwards.

Since Croke Park was opened to rugby & soccer, every GAA President now wants to 'make their mark' by leaving one lasting legacy on the organisation. John Horan seems to want this to be his. Pat Nolan had an interesting take on this via Twitter and it is worth reading.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6218 - 04/07/2019 16:19:03    2205500

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If the Tier 2 was in place this year, Laois and Offaly would have been excluded from the Final 16. Monaghan and Fermanagh are the two counties who would have benefitted from their higher league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 04/07/2019 16:45:20    2205520

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Replying To slayer:  "A key difference between hurling & football is that before hurling went to a tiered structure. a large number of counties had won absolutely nothing in hurling so moving to a tiered structure gave them a chance to win a trophy. It is working well.

In football over the last 30 years, Clare have won Munster, Limerick & Tipperary have drawn Munster finals, Westmeath, Laois & Kildare have won Leinster, Cavan have won Ulster, Leitrim, Sligo and Roscommon have all won Connaught. Fermanagh, Wexford & Tipp have played in All Ireland semi finals. Asking those counties to go into a lower tier is different to what happened in hurling. You are asking them to take a step backwards.

Since Croke Park was opened to rugby & soccer, every GAA President now wants to 'make their mark' by leaving one lasting legacy on the organisation. John Horan seems to want this to be his. Pat Nolan had an interesting take on this via Twitter and it is worth reading."
It wouldn't be taking a step back if teams are given ample opportunity to climb up the ladder. The GAA should just implement the three tier format used in camogie and ladies football.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 04/07/2019 18:42:31    2205570

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This is what the GAA are suggesting;
1. Leinster and Ulster Preliminary Round
2. Provincial Quarter-finals
3. Provincial Semi-finals
4. Provincial Finals, Qualifier Round 1 (8 to 4) & Tier 2 Round 1
5. Qualifier Round 2 (8 to 4), Tier 2 Round 2A (Round 1 winners) & Tier 2 Round 2B (Round 1 losers)
6. Super 8s Phase 1 & Tier 2 Round 3 (Round 2A losers and Round 2B winners)
7. Super 8s Phase 2 & Tier 2 Quarter-finals (Round 2A winners and Round 3 winners)
8. Super 8s Phase 3 & Tier 2 Semi-finals
9. All-Ireland Quarter-finals & Tier 2 Final."
Everyone would be on board with a 2nd tier if the tier 2 winner got re entry to the tier 1 quarter finals like the hurling championship

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 805 - 04/07/2019 20:47:34    2205612

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Everyone would be on board with a 2nd tier if the tier 2 winner got re entry to the tier 1 quarter finals like the hurling championship"
Tier 2 teams will already have had an opportunity through their province. The Tier 2 Championship will offer them a qualifier spot in the following year that they missed out in the current year due to missing the cut.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 04/07/2019 22:17:54    2205669

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Everyone would be on board with a 2nd tier if the tier 2 winner got re entry to the tier 1 quarter finals like the hurling championship"
While on the surface it seems unfair to parachute in a lower level Champ to the Tier 1 QFs (or the rd before), you are right in that it adds weight to Tier 2. I don't think tanking is an issue - as lower level teams get one shot at rhe Tier 1 KO and then have to play in Tier 1 groups in the following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 05/07/2019 00:31:50    2205713

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Tier 2 teams will already have had an opportunity through their province. The Tier 2 Championship will offer them a qualifier spot in the following year that they missed out in the current year due to missing the cut."
I understand all that but no one will care (players, supporter, media) if it's a stand alone competition.
No one cared about the Tommy Murphy Cup or the All Ireland B championship back in the day. No one will care now either.
It's easy for a Kerry man to pat the weaker counties on the head and tell them T Murphy 2.0 will be great, "ara, if he win, ye can play against us next year".
All due respect but to use a famous club administrators phrase "all due respect Fr, but that's the kind of shite that sickens my hole"

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 805 - 05/07/2019 05:37:26    2205723

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Anyone who gets the chance should look at the long thread on Twitter by Pat Nolan (GAA correspondent for the mirror) about questioning John Horan about the 2nd tier championship and the responses by Horan are embarrassing. When questioned about the imbalance of Leinster teams having to play 3 games in order to be in the top tier vs Cork(who only have to play one) Horan responded "those imbalances existed already" - all his responses following this non-logic. He wants a 2nd tier as some sort of lasting legacy but when the games are farcical with zero interest, it will be scrapped within a year or two. The bottom line is there was zero justification for creating this type of competition as it doesn't even address the basic problem of teams out of their depth being hammered in their province. I can't wait to head to Aughrim to watch us play Wicklow in the Mickey Mouse cup next year in front of around 100 people.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1565 - 05/07/2019 07:23:30    2205728

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Replying To PK57:  "Anyone who gets the chance should look at the long thread on Twitter by Pat Nolan (GAA correspondent for the mirror) about questioning John Horan about the 2nd tier championship and the responses by Horan are embarrassing. When questioned about the imbalance of Leinster teams having to play 3 games in order to be in the top tier vs Cork(who only have to play one) Horan responded "those imbalances existed already" - all his responses following this non-logic. He wants a 2nd tier as some sort of lasting legacy but when the games are farcical with zero interest, it will be scrapped within a year or two. The bottom line is there was zero justification for creating this type of competition as it doesn't even address the basic problem of teams out of their depth being hammered in their province. I can't wait to head to Aughrim to watch us play Wicklow in the Mickey Mouse cup next year in front of around 100 people."
I read it. The GAA is filled with echo chambers. I keep an open mind on this issue. I'm willing to support a tiered championship if it is promoted. However, I will support a single tier championship if it is competitive for all teams.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 05/07/2019 11:31:27    2205828

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Does Tier 2 offer a pathway for progression?

If a team is below Division 2 and not making provincial finals, does it offer the target to win the Tier 2 and work towards promotion to Division 2.

Is a run to win the Tier 2 likely to give a team good experience to go from winning Tier 2 to getting through the qualifiers and making the Super 8?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 05/07/2019 13:00:47    2205885

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Does Tier 2 offer a pathway for progression?

If a team is below Division 2 and not making provincial finals, does it offer the target to win the Tier 2 and work towards promotion to Division 2.

Is a run to win the Tier 2 likely to give a team good experience to go from winning Tier 2 to getting through the qualifiers and making the Super 8?"
There's a better argument for that if the proposals didn't involve a knockout competition.

Let's take London or Waterford say. Is this competition where they get 1 consequential tier 2 games (even in the back door tier 2 proposal there is only 1 consequential game as the first round of that actually negatively impacts the winning teams chances) after the Provincials an improvement on the qualifiers.

What does that do for those teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 05/07/2019 19:50:41    2206009

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I thought the double elimination format worked well in the Ring Cup for years.

If say Offaly v Laois from last weekend was the Tier 2 final on quarter-final day in Croke Park, the winner guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year can be looking forward with some momentum. They can trial it for a few years. Motions have seen Division 4 teams reinstated in the qualifiers before.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 05/07/2019 22:03:09    2206044

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I thought the double elimination format worked well in the Ring Cup for years.

If say Offaly v Laois from last weekend was the Tier 2 final on quarter-final day in Croke Park, the winner guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year can be looking forward with some momentum. They can trial it for a few years. Motions have seen Division 4 teams reinstated in the qualifiers before."
It isn't double elimination.

There's no advantage gained from winning the first round.

Every team plays in the second round and every round 2 winner goes through to the quarterfinals.

There's no round 3 with the round 2A losers playing the 2B winners for a quarter final spot.

It's pure nonsense some of the stuff the GAA come up with at times.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 05/07/2019 22:34:09    2206052

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