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Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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I've read the proposals for the new "Tier 2" Championship. Everything should be taken on it's merit. A positive aspect is the "guaranteed Sam Maguire cup spot" for the winners, I thought this was required to keep some interest, added to that an All Star team, final in Croke Park and television interest it's not a bad package for weaker counties. However it's all linked to provincial finals which could be a problem as counties will be required to wait until those are played at the end of June before proceeding with their competition. If beaten say on the 11th May will players hang about until say the 29th June to play in a second tier competition? I think it's unlikely in some cases.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 739 - 29/06/2019 14:49:04    2202366

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Replying To sam1884:  "I've read the proposals for the new "Tier 2" Championship. Everything should be taken on it's merit. A positive aspect is the "guaranteed Sam Maguire cup spot" for the winners, I thought this was required to keep some interest, added to that an All Star team, final in Croke Park and television interest it's not a bad package for weaker counties. However it's all linked to provincial finals which could be a problem as counties will be required to wait until those are played at the end of June before proceeding with their competition. If beaten say on the 11th May will players hang about until say the 29th June to play in a second tier competition? I think it's unlikely in some cases."
I agree I think it's a problem but it can be solved. I posted this on a different thread.

I think it's very close to being an excellent solution.

I think to make sure guys stick around for the secondary competition that the league and Provincial championships should be played in parallel with no breaks before the 2nd tier competition.

I also think the top tier should be tweaked to not be a Super 8s.

I think the division 3 champions should get a spot in tier 1.

Provincial champions only guaranteed their spot in Tier 1.


Tier 1 and tier 2 both 16 team double elimination competitions.

Round 1 8 ties
Round 2a 8 winners of round 1
Round 2b 8 losers of round 1
Round 3 losers of 2a v winners of 2b
Quarterfinals winners of 2a v winners of 3

Season calendar

1st March NFL1
8th March NFL2
15th March Break
22nd March NFL3
29th March NFL4
5th April Ulster/Leinster Preliminaries
12th April Club Weekend 1
19th April Break
26th April NFL5
3rd May Provincial quarterfinals
10th May Club Weekend 2
17th May Break
24th May NFL6
31st May Provincial semifinals
7th June Club weekend 3
14th June Break
21st June NFL7
28th June Provincial finals
5th July Club weekend 4
12th July Break
19th July All Ireland round 1
26th July All Ireland round 2
2nd August All Ireland round 3
9th August Break
16th August All Ireland quarterfinals
23rd August All Ireland semifinals
30th August Break
6th September All Ireland finals

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 29/06/2019 17:34:13    2202420

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree I think it's a problem but it can be solved. I posted this on a different thread.

I think it's very close to being an excellent solution.

I think to make sure guys stick around for the secondary competition that the league and Provincial championships should be played in parallel with no breaks before the 2nd tier competition.

I also think the top tier should be tweaked to not be a Super 8s.

I think the division 3 champions should get a spot in tier 1.

Provincial champions only guaranteed their spot in Tier 1.


Tier 1 and tier 2 both 16 team double elimination competitions.

Round 1 8 ties
Round 2a 8 winners of round 1
Round 2b 8 losers of round 1
Round 3 losers of 2a v winners of 2b
Quarterfinals winners of 2a v winners of 3

Season calendar

1st March NFL1
8th March NFL2
15th March Break
22nd March NFL3
29th March NFL4
5th April Ulster/Leinster Preliminaries
12th April Club Weekend 1
19th April Break
26th April NFL5
3rd May Provincial quarterfinals
10th May Club Weekend 2
17th May Break
24th May NFL6
31st May Provincial semifinals
7th June Club weekend 3
14th June Break
21st June NFL7
28th June Provincial finals
5th July Club weekend 4
12th July Break
19th July All Ireland round 1
26th July All Ireland round 2
2nd August All Ireland round 3
9th August Break
16th August All Ireland quarterfinals
23rd August All Ireland semifinals
30th August Break
6th September All Ireland finals"
Your proposal has some merit but I think the National league is now a great competition which brings great revenue. I'm not sure how serious teams would take it if they had a major Championship match 7 days later. The solution might be to start the Provincial Championships the third week of May so there is a shorter window between these and the All Ireland in both tiers commencing. This would allow teams losing a Provincial match waiting maximum 4 weeks which should maintain interest.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 739 - 29/06/2019 18:02:25    2202431

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Replying To sam1884:  "Your proposal has some merit but I think the National league is now a great competition which brings great revenue. I'm not sure how serious teams would take it if they had a major Championship match 7 days later. The solution might be to start the Provincial Championships the third week of May so there is a shorter window between these and the All Ireland in both tiers commencing. This would allow teams losing a Provincial match waiting maximum 4 weeks which should maintain interest."
They'd have to take it seriously, since it'd determine their placing in the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 29/06/2019 19:03:53    2202463

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The problem with the tiered championship as the gaa have proposed is that the 8 provincial finalists and the next 8 from league position qualify for the all Ireland.

Winning the B championship gains you nothing, so the team's won't care about it.

If they are going to have tiers winning the B championship has to count for qualifying for the A one - as is the case with the club's.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 60 - 29/06/2019 19:19:25    2202468

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The GAA are slowly trying to kill the games with these proposals. And the gas thing is Div 3&4 county board delegates will meekly put them through. There'll be marketing and tv for this tier 2 competition mar dhea, a bit like the Joe McDonagh cup for sure

Thelonesomegoose (Leitrim) - Posts: 204 - 29/06/2019 19:42:14    2202476

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I really hate structures that give teams easier schedules because they are weaker.

Sport is supposed to be about winning. The structure above incentivizes a team to be relegated from division 2 to get an easier championship draw."
I like a form of handicapping - while deviating from 'purely fair', it provides for a competition with a greater number of matches between teams of similar quality and gives weaker teams a chance to develop - so a degree of unfairness to achieve other goals. I don't teams will want to tank - Carlow hurling wants to stay in Leinster - not play McDonagh Cup with its superior chance of making the McCarthy Cup Last 8 - or are they faking it - I don't think so.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 29/06/2019 22:00:53    2202576

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Which is why I wouldn't based on the League except for the first staging. After that it will based on a teams's previous performance in the championship. They also have to play an extra game to get to the quarter-finals."
I like it. Another way of putting it is - best quarter (say 8 of 32) stays in Tier 1, weakest quarter stays down in Tier 2- and the middle half go back and forth from year to year. Best v Worst quarter pairings are avoided - everyone else could meet.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 29/06/2019 22:11:40    2202585

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The proposals are lazy and is simply the GAA attempting to brush the problem under the carpet. I think that everyone acknowledges a tier 2 competition would not be easy to market no matter how you try and dress it up but TV coverage of all rounds of any tier 2 competition is a must. A Tommy Murphy mark II will simply be dead and buried before it even starts.

Anyway, for what it is worth my thoughts on what should happen are as follows:

League remains the same in current format but final placings in 2020 edition decide which teams go tier 1 and 2. Div 1 & 2 teams = Tier 1. Div 3 & 4 teams = Tier 2

Tier 1 -

4 groups of 4 team i.e. 16 teams from final league standings in 2020. If a team is promoted to Div 2 from 3 next spring then they would be tier 1 and likewise a side relegated from Div 2 to Div 3 will play in the tier 2 competition. Once the 16 counties are finalised they are seeded based on league position i.e. Top 4 in Div 1 = Pot 1, bottom 4 in Div 1 = Pot 2, Top 4 in Div 2 = Pot 3, 5/6 placed in Div 2 + 1/2 placed in Div 3 = Pot 4. Each team has a home game, an away game and a game on a neutral venue. Top two from each group go to QFs and so on.

Relegation from Tier 1 - Two go down. The bottom side in each group playoff in a relegation game. So bottom of Group A V bottom of Group B, Bottom of Group C V bottom of Group D. Both losers relegated to Tier 2 competition for the following season.



Tier 2 -

4 groups of 4 team i.e. 16 teams from final league standings in Divisions 2, 3 & 4 in 2020 as described above. Each team has a home game, an away game and a game on a neutral venue. Top two from each group go to QFs and so on. Finalists promoted to Tier 1 for the following season.

I would also propose that the bottom team from Div 4 plays New York in a playoff to decide who goes in as the 16th team and therefore keeping the annual game stateside going.


Tier 2 competition to have it's own all stars, tour, etc and the QFs, Semis and Final all played as curtain raisers to the Tier 1 competition.

juande_ramos (Leitrim) - Posts: 45 - 01/07/2019 13:27:01    2203533

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Replying To juande_ramos:  "The proposals are lazy and is simply the GAA attempting to brush the problem under the carpet. I think that everyone acknowledges a tier 2 competition would not be easy to market no matter how you try and dress it up but TV coverage of all rounds of any tier 2 competition is a must. A Tommy Murphy mark II will simply be dead and buried before it even starts.

Anyway, for what it is worth my thoughts on what should happen are as follows:

League remains the same in current format but final placings in 2020 edition decide which teams go tier 1 and 2. Div 1 & 2 teams = Tier 1. Div 3 & 4 teams = Tier 2

Tier 1 -

4 groups of 4 team i.e. 16 teams from final league standings in 2020. If a team is promoted to Div 2 from 3 next spring then they would be tier 1 and likewise a side relegated from Div 2 to Div 3 will play in the tier 2 competition. Once the 16 counties are finalised they are seeded based on league position i.e. Top 4 in Div 1 = Pot 1, bottom 4 in Div 1 = Pot 2, Top 4 in Div 2 = Pot 3, 5/6 placed in Div 2 + 1/2 placed in Div 3 = Pot 4. Each team has a home game, an away game and a game on a neutral venue. Top two from each group go to QFs and so on.

Relegation from Tier 1 - Two go down. The bottom side in each group playoff in a relegation game. So bottom of Group A V bottom of Group B, Bottom of Group C V bottom of Group D. Both losers relegated to Tier 2 competition for the following season.



Tier 2 -

4 groups of 4 team i.e. 16 teams from final league standings in Divisions 2, 3 & 4 in 2020 as described above. Each team has a home game, an away game and a game on a neutral venue. Top two from each group go to QFs and so on. Finalists promoted to Tier 1 for the following season.

I would also propose that the bottom team from Div 4 plays New York in a playoff to decide who goes in as the 16th team and therefore keeping the annual game stateside going.


Tier 2 competition to have it's own all stars, tour, etc and the QFs, Semis and Final all played as curtain raisers to the Tier 1 competition."
Quite conventional and straight forward - only problem I have is dead rubbers in the 3rd rd of round robin.
To eliminate these, I prefer groups of 3 with griup winners advancing, and everyone else plays their 3rd match in a 1st KO Rd (2nds host 3rds).
Also, I prefer the hurling 3 of 5 advancing, than the conventional 2 of 4.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 01/07/2019 21:24:43    2203975

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If the Super 8 expands to a Top 16, the proposed double elimination Tier 2 would have a more favourable carrot to chase after. Win Tier 2 would mean a place in the 4 groups of 4 All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 02/07/2019 07:39:22    2204096

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John Evans was on Newstalk at the weekend and suggested you start with a 20 team Tier1 based on League placings (Div1, Div2 and Top 4 in Div3). Then you have a 12 team Tier2 Championship. His reasoning for involving the Div 3 Teams is you make it a competitive league campaign the first year. Got me thinking about how it would work.

So start with Tier 2 (and I'm afraid for the purposes of this we need to exclude New York until later):

- 12 Teams so 2 groups of 6 (each team gets 5 games).
- Open Draw, no seeding system where you have 2 from Div3 and 4 from Div 4 in each group.
- The 2 group winners play in the Tier 2 Championship Final. Both teams get promoted to Tier1 Championship for the following year.
- The winners get a weekend in New York and play against New York (paid for by the GAA, so New York get their game).
- London - the GAA subsidizes the counties who are in London's group for their trips, and vice versa for London to come over here.

So then you have Tier 1:

- 20 Teams so 4 Groups of 5 (4 games each)
- Again, Open Draw. None of this seeding crap. If Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal end up in a group by themselves, then so be it ...
- The 4 Group winners advance to the All-Ireland Semi Finals.
- The 4 bottom teams go into an open draw and 2 games decide relegation to Tier 2 for the following year.
- None of this "everyone gets to play a game in Croker" rubbish either. If Dublin pick that for their 2 home games, fine. Win your group and you'll get to play a Semi Final there.

So then how does this fit into the rest of the year:

- Scrap the FBD League/O'Byrne Cup etc. Or else play them as Under 20 Competitions. If Counties want to use them for developing or assessing players, so be it.
- Start the League in November. If the All-Ireland's are played and done by end of August, then you have Sept/Oct as Club Months. You could get League finished by end of January.
- February is a clear month, so can be club month.
- Provincial Championships start first weekend in March. Achievable to finish by early April (barring replays).
- Rest of April/May are Club months
- Tier1/Tier2 Competitions start 2nd week in June. Play the 4 games over 6 weekends (or 5 out of 7 weekends for Tier2) so you are then finished the groups by 3rd week in July. At that point you have 22 counties finished and who can resume club activity.
- All Ireland Semis second weekend in August (assuming that All Ireland Hurling Final is on 1st weekend in August).
- Allowing for replays in Semis, play final on first weekend in September. Play both Tier1 and Tier 2 Finals on the same day in Croke Park.

Run with this for 3 years, see how it works.

TomSlick (Westmeath) - Posts: 2 - 02/07/2019 17:13:26    2204410

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Under the proposed suggestion, the league is going to take on a whole new meaning. It can no longer be used in a development manner.

The hurling league is being restructured so that players can be played in a development manner. There is a contradiction but both codes can go on different paths if it suits them.

There is a remote chance that 8 teams below Division 2 could make their provincial finals. That would leave room for Division 1 teams only. It's remote but it is a possibility.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 02/07/2019 18:14:21    2204450

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Replying To Thelonesomegoose:  "The GAA are slowly trying to kill the games with these proposals. And the gas thing is Div 3&4 county board delegates will meekly put them through. There'll be marketing and tv for this tier 2 competition mar dhea, a bit like the Joe McDonagh cup for sure"
I don't think the Joe McDonagh has been a bad idea for the counties unable to compete regularly with the top 9 hurling counties, as it probably does more for their development than 4 straight defeats like Carlow. But these proposals will definitely make more players disinterested in playing for the weaker counties because the gap between Division 4 and 2 in football does not warrant these kind of tiered proposals.

eoghan6688 (Galway) - Posts: 137 - 02/07/2019 18:50:33    2204465

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Actually Amateur sport is about taking part.
Professional sport is about winning

The ethos of the GAA is the promotion of Gaelic Games as an amateur sport

So the whole thing should be about keeping as many teams involved as long as possible

The hurling championship has historically been a farce (Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork win with the odd win by someone else)

football is as bad Kerry or Dublin with the odd surge by another county that has a special generation of players.

Most professional leagues have a better spread of title winners"
What professional leagues last 15 years premiership:
Manchester United - 13 Titles
Chelsea - 5 titles
Arsenal - 3 titles
Manchester City - 3 titles
Blackburn Rovers - 1 title
Leicester City - 1 title

And for the record Mississippi among others do not have an NFL team at all.

We need Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 championships, Tier 1 is Senior, 2 is Intermediate and 3 is Junior.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4513 - 02/07/2019 18:55:37    2204467

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The GAA proposals are a dog's dinner. What's needed is a championship that could be explained to someone that watches love island.

Provincials as stand alone competitions
League with promotion/relegation
Top 2 from 1A and 1B contest semi finals

Simple

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 701 - 02/07/2019 19:06:53    2204477

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Replying To tyroneed:  "The GAA proposals are a dog's dinner. What's needed is a championship that could be explained to someone that watches love island.

Provincials as stand alone competitions
League with promotion/relegation
Top 2 from 1A and 1B contest semi finals

Simple"
Yes

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3214 - 02/07/2019 20:04:01    2204509

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Replying To TomSlick:  "John Evans was on Newstalk at the weekend and suggested you start with a 20 team Tier1 based on League placings (Div1, Div2 and Top 4 in Div3). Then you have a 12 team Tier2 Championship. His reasoning for involving the Div 3 Teams is you make it a competitive league campaign the first year. Got me thinking about how it would work.

So start with Tier 2 (and I'm afraid for the purposes of this we need to exclude New York until later):

- 12 Teams so 2 groups of 6 (each team gets 5 games).
- Open Draw, no seeding system where you have 2 from Div3 and 4 from Div 4 in each group.
- The 2 group winners play in the Tier 2 Championship Final. Both teams get promoted to Tier1 Championship for the following year.
- The winners get a weekend in New York and play against New York (paid for by the GAA, so New York get their game).
- London - the GAA subsidizes the counties who are in London's group for their trips, and vice versa for London to come over here.

So then you have Tier 1:

- 20 Teams so 4 Groups of 5 (4 games each)
- Again, Open Draw. None of this seeding crap. If Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal end up in a group by themselves, then so be it ...
- The 4 Group winners advance to the All-Ireland Semi Finals.
- The 4 bottom teams go into an open draw and 2 games decide relegation to Tier 2 for the following year.
- None of this "everyone gets to play a game in Croker" rubbish either. If Dublin pick that for their 2 home games, fine. Win your group and you'll get to play a Semi Final there.

So then how does this fit into the rest of the year:

- Scrap the FBD League/O'Byrne Cup etc. Or else play them as Under 20 Competitions. If Counties want to use them for developing or assessing players, so be it.
- Start the League in November. If the All-Ireland's are played and done by end of August, then you have Sept/Oct as Club Months. You could get League finished by end of January.
- February is a clear month, so can be club month.
- Provincial Championships start first weekend in March. Achievable to finish by early April (barring replays).
- Rest of April/May are Club months
- Tier1/Tier2 Competitions start 2nd week in June. Play the 4 games over 6 weekends (or 5 out of 7 weekends for Tier2) so you are then finished the groups by 3rd week in July. At that point you have 22 counties finished and who can resume club activity.
- All Ireland Semis second weekend in August (assuming that All Ireland Hurling Final is on 1st weekend in August).
- Allowing for replays in Semis, play final on first weekend in September. Play both Tier1 and Tier 2 Finals on the same day in Croke Park.

Run with this for 3 years, see how it works."
I'd swap the number of teams in each tier. The semi-finals and finals will be held in Croke Park on the same weekend.

Tier 1

2 groups of 6.

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final
6th - Relegated

Group A

Cavan
Kerry
Fermanagh
Meath
Galway
Donegal

Group B

Kildare
Monaghan
Roscommon
Mayo
Tyrone
Dublin

Tier 2

1st - Semi-final
2nd and 3rd - Quarter-final

Group A

Carlow
Wicklow
Leitrim
Offaly
Down

Group B

Wexford
Louth
Westmeath
Waterford
Derry

Group C

Tipperary
Antrim
Sligo
Longford
Laois

Group D

Limerick
Cork
Clare
Armagh
London

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 02/07/2019 21:36:06    2204593

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yes"
You could get the provinces on board by giving a points bonus to provincial champions in the league. That way the provincial championships can still claim relevance to the overall All-ireland series.

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 374 - 02/07/2019 21:57:31    2204611

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Replying To extranjero:  "You could get the provinces on board by giving a points bonus to provincial champions in the league. That way the provincial championships can still claim relevance to the overall All-ireland series."
To accommodate your wish in Tier 1, you could have 'hurling sized' 3 groups of 5.
Put 3 teams from Lein in group LM; 3 from Uls in group LU; and 3 from Conn in group CU.
Then, 2 teams from Muns complete LM; 2 from Lein complete LU and 2 from Uls complete CU.

All play a 4-match round robin, with top 3 of 5 in each gtoup advancing to the KO stage.

Also, the top Lein team in each of two groups play a Lein Final; top Uls team in each of two groups play an Uls Final; highest 2 of 3 Conn teams in CU play a Conn Final; and both Muns teams in LM play a Muns Final.
4 Prov Champs join 9 from the groups in the KO stage.
Byes to QFs as necessary - Best group record Champs followed by best group record Non Champs.
Do same for SHC - 2 mixed Prov groups of 5.
Keep 5th ranked in both Provs apart - then draw 2 of 4 from Muns others and switch them with Lein's equally ranked.
After 4 group matches per team - top 3 in both groups advance - and highest Muns team in each group play a Muns Final - same for Lein. This could create unlikely 4th placed Champs for an 8-team QF field (most likely, 2 byes like now).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1883 - 03/07/2019 04:24:57    2204721

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