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I have seen numerous comments through the different topics regarding the club championship and it got me thinking.
Is there any issues with the club championship in its current format? Personally I would say 'No'. If you look at the vast majority of games there is very little between the teams. People will argue that it is not competitive but if that was the case then there would be a lot of hammering occurring. If you look at the Dublin Championship, which is generally regarded as the most competitive in the country, the facts dont stack up. The top 4/5 teams are close but the remaining teams there is a massive difference in terms of quality.
I think we have a competitive championship and i think the major point here is competitive. I dont think it is a good championship in terms of quality, hence why the champions struggle in Leinster. But the quality has got nothing to do with the structure.
Opinions?
juicy (Meath) - Posts: 399 - 04/08/2017 11:41:34
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Replying To juicy: "I have seen numerous comments through the different topics regarding the club championship and it got me thinking.
Is there any issues with the club championship in its current format? Personally I would say 'No'. If you look at the vast majority of games there is very little between the teams. People will argue that it is not competitive but if that was the case then there would be a lot of hammering occurring. If you look at the Dublin Championship, which is generally regarded as the most competitive in the country, the facts dont stack up. The top 4/5 teams are close but the remaining teams there is a massive difference in terms of quality.
I think we have a competitive championship and i think the major point here is competitive. I dont think it is a good championship in terms of quality, hence why the champions struggle in Leinster. But the quality has got nothing to do with the structure.
Opinions?" I think that the proposals that were brought in last year and were then thrown out were a good idea as it offered us smaller groups in the championship and every team with a chance of coming out of the group or getting sucked into relegation which meant every game had something riding on it. The fact that last year simonstown could afford to not win there first 3 matches and still get out of the group is ridiculous. The groups now are to big and to many teams are just happy to stay up and know they have no chance of winning the thing! It would make it easier for the county board to get competitions finished on time as well.
BigJoe14 (Meath) - Posts: 934 - 04/08/2017 12:08:34
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I don't think it is near enough competitive at all. I have said before you can lose 3 games and still make the quarter finals which I think takes away from the fact of championship.
In Dublin you lose 1 game and you're out, Dublins biggest problem is the fact they have 32 teams which is why they have so many mis-matches in the early rounds. Kerry and Cork both have divisional and club championships. In Kerry their club championship only has 8 teams and it is straight knock out, don't know how many is in the divisional championship but they play some sort of Christy Ring style, this I don't think would work in Meath because we would need divisional boards like they have. Galway and Armagh are both Christy Ring style as well similar to Kerry's divisional one but only have clubs and i'm not sure which way it works or with how many teams but I know you can only afford to lose one game. To make the knockout stages in most of these counties you can only lose 1 game at most. Now look at the likes of Corofin, Vincents, Ballymun, Ballyboden, Crokes and Cross who have won their championships and gone on to be successful in provincial and all Ireland series.
What else do all these counties have in common, they have all made the quarter finals this year. In all the top counties you can not lose more than two games Tyrone is straight knock out, Mayo and Donegal is 4 groups of 4 (Open to correction). Not sure on Roscommon's championship structure either.
All of there players know what championship is about some only get one round of championship with their club, so when they play for their county they have the mentality and desire to win. Our lads don't they get 5 rounds of championship, everyone goes through the motions and our eventual winner goes into Leinster and comes back with there tail between their legs.
UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 355 - 04/08/2017 12:32:03
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2 up 2 down would improve things a lot.
9 is a stupid number for those going into the knockout rounds. You have to have 4 rounds instead of 3 for the sake of 1 game.
You could keep 18 teams and play a Longford style championship, every team plays 3 matches. 1 ladder, 8 best records into quarterfinals. Bottom 4 into relegation playoff. With 2 losers down.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 04/08/2017 13:56:46
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The structure in its existing format needs to be changed. The fact that teams who win their first two or three group matches can simply ride out the rest of the group campaign or can lose 2 matches and still qualify is a farce. We should be looking to counties currently reaching the latter stages of the All-Ireland and take note of how they structure their championships. Look at the counties who reached an All-Ireland quarter final in the last 4 years.
Dublin: Straight knockout involving 32 clubs. Losers in Round 1 enter a Senior 'B' championship which is also straight knockout.
Tyrone: Straight knockout involving 16 clubs.
Fermanagh: Staright knockout involving 8 clubs.
Mayo, Donegal & Tipperary: 4 groups of 4. Top 2 into Quarter-Finals, bottom in Relegation. Generally a team who loses twice will be knocked out.
Roscommon: A seeded group stage of two groups A and B both with 6 teams. Group A consists of the previous year's quarter-finalists and so contains the best teams making games more competitive. Top 2 go into a semi, 3rd and 4th into a quarter-final and bottom 2 relegated to Group B the following year. Group B contains the IFC champions, and the teams who didn't make a quarter-final the previous year. Top 2 in Group B enter a quarter-final.
Kerry: A knockout club championship (8 teams) & and a county championship (8 clubs and 9 divisional sides made up from Intermediate & Junior clubs in an area) in a Christy Ring format (i.e. double elimination. Winners of Round 1 play each other in Round 2A, losers enter round 2B. Losers in Round 2B are knocked-out while the winners enter Round 3 to play the losers of Round 2A. Winners of Round 3 meet the 2A winners in a Quarter-Final. Essentially, a team can't lose twice and win a championship.
Galway, Armagh, Clare, Kildare & Monaghan: Christy-Ring double elimination style format involving 20, 16, 16, 16 and 10 clubs respectively.
Cork: Christy-Ring style involving 26 teams (20 clubs and 6 divisional sides).
It's important to point out that in most Ulster counties (with the exception of Donegal, Cavan and Fermanagh) the same teams play in Senior championship as do in Senior league. A team is relegated not by their performance in championship but by their performance in league (i.e. should a team reach a senior championship semi-final, but finish in the bottom 2 of senior league, they will be relegated to Intermediate championship and league the following year). This makes both championship and league vastly more competitive than our leagues here in Meath.
The best style for Meath to follow in my opinion would be Kerry's. Any player good enough to play SFC is able to play with his local divisional side, even if his own club are Junior A or B. He will also be allowed play for his club in Junior championship but due to divisional boards in Meath being abolished over 60 years ago it's unlikely this could happen.
The Christy Ring format provides teams with just one chance and from then on a real winner takes all feel. Roscommon's format also has originality to it with other counties such as Westmeath & Longford beginning to copy them.
Finally, a list of counties who use our out dated format where a team may lose twice or more and still win a championship are Leitrim, Limerick, Offaly, Sligo, Waterford & Wexford. When's the last time any of this lot made an All-Ireland quarter-final?
nmsmithy96 (Meath) - Posts: 108 - 04/08/2017 14:22:08
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I would be go with juicy, however some relevant point are made and maybe some small tweaking might help. I do agree that there should be some adjustments made to have the same number coming out of each group with same chance for every team. Some folk want a knockout championship which I do not agree with at this time (maybe fine if most league matches were played with county players). I would like to see junior/ intermediate combinations competing in the senior championship, however knockout may facilitate option better that better. It is very unusual for a team to win the championship not winning any of the first 3 matches, although I remember a team not losing a match and being knocked out of the championship (Sens! in 80's). Changing the system because of one or two unusual occurrence in the groups does not make for good practice.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 04/08/2017 14:38:43
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Replying To browncows: "I would be go with juicy, however some relevant point are made and maybe some small tweaking might help. I do agree that there should be some adjustments made to have the same number coming out of each group with same chance for every team. Some folk want a knockout championship which I do not agree with at this time (maybe fine if most league matches were played with county players). I would like to see junior/ intermediate combinations competing in the senior championship, however knockout may facilitate option better that better. It is very unusual for a team to win the championship not winning any of the first 3 matches, although I remember a team not losing a match and being knocked out of the championship (Sens! in 80's). Changing the system because of one or two unusual occurrence in the groups does not make for good practice." "I would like to see junior/ intermediate combinations competing in the senior championship"
Do you mean Browncows ..amalgamation between a junior/ intermediate club ?
the idea is good..but you need two clubs beside each other for that to happen Drumconrath/Syddan and Nobber/Meath Hill
On paper Browncows its a good idea..
WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - Posts: 876 - 04/08/2017 15:21:49
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From an outsider instead of 3 groups of 6 why not go with 6 groups of 3. Each team plays each once so every team has 2 matches in the group.
A). The 6 group winners goes straight to the quarter-finals.
B). The 6 runners up goes straight in to the quarter-finals play-off. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 winners would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 winners of the first round matches would join the 6 group winners in the quarter-finals.
C). The 6 bottom teams in the group go in to the relegation play-offs. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 losers would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 losers of the first round matches would play each other in a relegation play-off final.
With this system every team has something to play for in the group.
OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 04/08/2017 15:49:36
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Replying To juicy: "I have seen numerous comments through the different topics regarding the club championship and it got me thinking.
Is there any issues with the club championship in its current format? Personally I would say 'No'. If you look at the vast majority of games there is very little between the teams. People will argue that it is not competitive but if that was the case then there would be a lot of hammering occurring. If you look at the Dublin Championship, which is generally regarded as the most competitive in the country, the facts dont stack up. The top 4/5 teams are close but the remaining teams there is a massive difference in terms of quality.
I think we have a competitive championship and i think the major point here is competitive. I dont think it is a good championship in terms of quality, hence why the champions struggle in Leinster. But the quality has got nothing to do with the structure.
Opinions?" really? we have the worst championship in the country in terms of system. the clubs really made a balls of it last year and it should be changed regardless of what the clubs think.
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 04/08/2017 16:30:59
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Replying To WhyTheLongFace: ""I would like to see junior/ intermediate combinations competing in the senior championship"
Do you mean Browncows ..amalgamation between a junior/ intermediate club ?
the idea is good..but you need two clubs beside each other for that to happen Drumconrath/Syddan and Nobber/Meath Hill
On paper Browncows its a good idea.." Yes -You could have say one intermediate plus 1 or two junior sides, or say 3 junior sides. I just think that it would be good for football inside the county and get junior players playing at a higher level giving everyone the opportunity to compete in the senior championship. I think this was put forward by junior clubs in the past but failed to go thru. The junior clubs need to canvas other clubs including the senior clubs for success in getting it passed at the top table. I expect that most senior clubs would have no objections and combinations would make the competition more interesting.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 04/08/2017 16:34:15
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also most teams go through the motions,there is little intensity until the knock out stages and even often by then teams are stuck in first gear.
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 04/08/2017 16:37:13
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Replying To nmsmithy96: "The structure in its existing format needs to be changed. The fact that teams who win their first two or three group matches can simply ride out the rest of the group campaign or can lose 2 matches and still qualify is a farce. We should be looking to counties currently reaching the latter stages of the All-Ireland and take note of how they structure their championships. Look at the counties who reached an All-Ireland quarter final in the last 4 years.
Dublin: Straight knockout involving 32 clubs. Losers in Round 1 enter a Senior 'B' championship which is also straight knockout.
Tyrone: Straight knockout involving 16 clubs.
Fermanagh: Staright knockout involving 8 clubs.
Mayo, Donegal & Tipperary: 4 groups of 4. Top 2 into Quarter-Finals, bottom in Relegation. Generally a team who loses twice will be knocked out.
Roscommon: A seeded group stage of two groups A and B both with 6 teams. Group A consists of the previous year's quarter-finalists and so contains the best teams making games more competitive. Top 2 go into a semi, 3rd and 4th into a quarter-final and bottom 2 relegated to Group B the following year. Group B contains the IFC champions, and the teams who didn't make a quarter-final the previous year. Top 2 in Group B enter a quarter-final.
Kerry: A knockout club championship (8 teams) & and a county championship (8 clubs and 9 divisional sides made up from Intermediate & Junior clubs in an area) in a Christy Ring format (i.e. double elimination. Winners of Round 1 play each other in Round 2A, losers enter round 2B. Losers in Round 2B are knocked-out while the winners enter Round 3 to play the losers of Round 2A. Winners of Round 3 meet the 2A winners in a Quarter-Final. Essentially, a team can't lose twice and win a championship.
Galway, Armagh, Clare, Kildare & Monaghan: Christy-Ring double elimination style format involving 20, 16, 16, 16 and 10 clubs respectively.
Cork: Christy-Ring style involving 26 teams (20 clubs and 6 divisional sides).
It's important to point out that in most Ulster counties (with the exception of Donegal, Cavan and Fermanagh) the same teams play in Senior championship as do in Senior league. A team is relegated not by their performance in championship but by their performance in league (i.e. should a team reach a senior championship semi-final, but finish in the bottom 2 of senior league, they will be relegated to Intermediate championship and league the following year). This makes both championship and league vastly more competitive than our leagues here in Meath.
The best style for Meath to follow in my opinion would be Kerry's. Any player good enough to play SFC is able to play with his local divisional side, even if his own club are Junior A or B. He will also be allowed play for his club in Junior championship but due to divisional boards in Meath being abolished over 60 years ago it's unlikely this could happen.
The Christy Ring format provides teams with just one chance and from then on a real winner takes all feel. Roscommon's format also has originality to it with other counties such as Westmeath & Longford beginning to copy them.
Finally, a list of counties who use our out dated format where a team may lose twice or more and still win a championship are Leitrim, Limerick, Offaly, Sligo, Waterford & Wexford. When's the last time any of this lot made an All-Ireland quarter-final?" this says it all and should end the argument..
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 04/08/2017 16:42:55
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The worst thing about the championship is you can play 7 matches, lose 6 of them and retain your status. That's all some of the weaker teams in each grade care about.
It's not such a big deal a team losing a few games. Realistically they still need to win a minimum of 6 games to win the Championship. The last 3 games against some of the best teams in the county. In straight knockout in some counties a team can win championship with 3 wins. They can get an easy draw in the first couple of rounds too.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 04/08/2017 18:07:04
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Replying To OLLIE: "From an outsider instead of 3 groups of 6 why not go with 6 groups of 3. Each team plays each once so every team has 2 matches in the group.
A). The 6 group winners goes straight to the quarter-finals.
B). The 6 runners up goes straight in to the quarter-finals play-off. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 winners would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 winners of the first round matches would join the 6 group winners in the quarter-finals.
C). The 6 bottom teams in the group go in to the relegation play-offs. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 losers would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 losers of the first round matches would play each other in a relegation play-off final.
With this system every team has something to play for in the group." Sounds good Ollie. I do like the Louth structure
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 04/08/2017 19:07:03
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Replying To nmsmithy96: "The structure in its existing format needs to be changed. The fact that teams who win their first two or three group matches can simply ride out the rest of the group campaign or can lose 2 matches and still qualify is a farce. We should be looking to counties currently reaching the latter stages of the All-Ireland and take note of how they structure their championships. Look at the counties who reached an All-Ireland quarter final in the last 4 years.
Dublin: Straight knockout involving 32 clubs. Losers in Round 1 enter a Senior 'B' championship which is also straight knockout.
Tyrone: Straight knockout involving 16 clubs.
Fermanagh: Staright knockout involving 8 clubs.
Mayo, Donegal & Tipperary: 4 groups of 4. Top 2 into Quarter-Finals, bottom in Relegation. Generally a team who loses twice will be knocked out.
Roscommon: A seeded group stage of two groups A and B both with 6 teams. Group A consists of the previous year's quarter-finalists and so contains the best teams making games more competitive. Top 2 go into a semi, 3rd and 4th into a quarter-final and bottom 2 relegated to Group B the following year. Group B contains the IFC champions, and the teams who didn't make a quarter-final the previous year. Top 2 in Group B enter a quarter-final.
Kerry: A knockout club championship (8 teams) & and a county championship (8 clubs and 9 divisional sides made up from Intermediate & Junior clubs in an area) in a Christy Ring format (i.e. double elimination. Winners of Round 1 play each other in Round 2A, losers enter round 2B. Losers in Round 2B are knocked-out while the winners enter Round 3 to play the losers of Round 2A. Winners of Round 3 meet the 2A winners in a Quarter-Final. Essentially, a team can't lose twice and win a championship.
Galway, Armagh, Clare, Kildare & Monaghan: Christy-Ring double elimination style format involving 20, 16, 16, 16 and 10 clubs respectively.
Cork: Christy-Ring style involving 26 teams (20 clubs and 6 divisional sides).
It's important to point out that in most Ulster counties (with the exception of Donegal, Cavan and Fermanagh) the same teams play in Senior championship as do in Senior league. A team is relegated not by their performance in championship but by their performance in league (i.e. should a team reach a senior championship semi-final, but finish in the bottom 2 of senior league, they will be relegated to Intermediate championship and league the following year). This makes both championship and league vastly more competitive than our leagues here in Meath.
The best style for Meath to follow in my opinion would be Kerry's. Any player good enough to play SFC is able to play with his local divisional side, even if his own club are Junior A or B. He will also be allowed play for his club in Junior championship but due to divisional boards in Meath being abolished over 60 years ago it's unlikely this could happen.
The Christy Ring format provides teams with just one chance and from then on a real winner takes all feel. Roscommon's format also has originality to it with other counties such as Westmeath & Longford beginning to copy them.
Finally, a list of counties who use our out dated format where a team may lose twice or more and still win a championship are Leitrim, Limerick, Offaly, Sligo, Waterford & Wexford. When's the last time any of this lot made an All-Ireland quarter-final?" Excellent and well researched post
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 04/08/2017 19:10:07
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Didn't Curraha propose divisional teams about 5 or 10 years ago but it got voted down? At the time senior clubs were told they were afraid of a challenge and selfishly voted it down.
Funny how it was a load of junior clubs who rejected the latest proposals for championships of 16, because they were afraid of the challenge an selfishly voted it down.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1643 - 05/08/2017 20:02:41
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Replying To CastleBravo: "Didn't Curraha propose divisional teams about 5 or 10 years ago but it got voted down? At the time senior clubs were told they were afraid of a challenge and selfishly voted it down.
Funny how it was a load of junior clubs who rejected the latest proposals for championships of 16, because they were afraid of the challenge an selfishly voted it down." still annoys me that it was voted in and then they went against it anyway!
ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 05/08/2017 20:06:53
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For example a big club with a Senior and Junior teams with a population of 10k...with a good underage structure ! Would have they same 1 vote as a Junior team that has a population of 400 people ..20 sheep...40 hens and a donkey that votes no on everything ? That can't be right ?
WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - Posts: 876 - 05/08/2017 20:35:09
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Replying To WhyTheLongFace: "For example a big club with a Senior and Junior teams with a population of 10k...with a good underage structure ! Would have they same 1 vote as a Junior team that has a population of 400 people ..20 sheep...40 hens and a donkey that votes no on everything ? That can't be right ?" so your proposing one team one vote where the likes of simonstown and ashbourne etc have 3-4 teams? get away out of that . that would destroy small clubs voting at conventions. 1 club one vote is what it is and should be.
srgt_slaughter (Meath) - Posts: 462 - 08/08/2017 16:00:08
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Replying To srgt_slaughter: "so your proposing one team one vote where the likes of simonstown and ashbourne etc have 3-4 teams? get away out of that . that would destroy small clubs voting at conventions. 1 club one vote is what it is and should be." well ok.... i know a club that are doing everything they can to promote our Gaa games ! They try their best to get young kids involved and keep them playing our Sport, People in the Gaa club want to get involved and are doing the hard yards and getting stuck in for the good of the club and our clubs games !
Then you have another club who don't even get 10 or 12 lads at training ..not doing a tap at underage ..not developing our games and promoting it to young people ! Their local soccer team comes first !
And remember the club that i am talking about doing the hard work is actually a small club and the club that is sitting on their behind was a big club !
So it doesn't have to be big clubs with more than 1 vote...But it would help Meath football if clubs who are doing more for the game to have more of a say !
Would you make North Korea a veto Nation srgt_slaughter :)
WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - Posts: 876 - 08/08/2017 17:43:46
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