St. Mary's Cahirciveen, beat Carrigaline to become the 9 Kerry club in the last 10 years to win the competition.

In the All-Ireland series, Kerry have won 3 in the last 6 years while also losing 2 finals.

While this is major achievement even for a successful county, Kerry have huge advantage in that it is their 12th best team that is intermediate.

Currently Kerry only have 11 senior clubs, with the rest intermediate and junior etc. Interestingly, senior clubs are going to be further reduced in 2016 by three, so there is only going to be 8 senior clubs in Kerry.

Strangely, the 2014 Munster Senior Club Champions - Austin Stacks could be playing in the 2016 Intermediate Championship as they are currently in a senior regulation playoff with Laune Rangers.
Even stranger is that the current and Munster Intermediate Champions St Mary's will not be a senior club next year, so technically they could retain their Munster Crown next year! Although I don't think Croke Park would allow it. I thought that Croke Park made it mandatory a few years ago that Intermediate champions go senior - this may have changed.

Other counties have significantly more senior clubs, and subsequently their intermediate teams are weaker.

For instance, St. Mary's Cahirciveen would be Kerry's 12th best club being the intermediate champions. They played the Clare intermediate champions (Corofin) who are Clare's 17th best club team.
This resulted in one of the biggest winning margins ever in Championship with Corofin only scoring from a free in the last minute. St Mary's 4-21 - Corofin 0-1

Obviously, the less senior clubs a county has the stronger the Intermediate teams are going to be.

In 2016, Munster counties will have the following number of senior clubs:
8 Kerry
9 Limerick
12 Waterford
13 Tipperary
16 Cork


Other Counties have significantly more Senior clubs:
34 Dublin
21 Galway
16 Mayo
16 Tyrone

The fairest Intermediate All Ireland Club series is for Croke Park to ensure that there is a minimum of Senior Clubs in a county. This ensures that there is some standard level.

Ironically, the SENIOR Kerry Hurling Club champions play in the INTERMEDIATE Munster Hurling Championship as it would be unfair for Kerry Senior Clubs to play against Cork/Clare etc Senior clubs.

Who says you cant have the best of both worlds!

taz33 (Kerry) - Posts: 2 - 11/12/2015 14:26:08    1812668

I think it was 2011 when St Marys won the junior club All-Ireland having hammered their opponents in the semi-final and final. It is just one of these things I suppose, Kilkennys intermediate and junior clubs tend to do well in hurling as well, partly because they have a small number of senior clubs and partly because there are alot of strong clubs in the county.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 12/12/2015 10:09:48    1812719

I have to say I agree with the Kerry approach. Senior championship should be for clubs who are serious about winning it, and not just those happy to say Senior. The counties I Know intimately, Galway and Dublin have the following. Galway have 20 football and 22 hurling senior clubs. 12-16 in both would be ideal. Dublin has 32 Football and 16 Hurling senior championship clubs. The Hurling model of four groups of four would work better in football, and is ideal for Hurling, and could with some justification be reduced to 12, and two groups of six in hurling.

This year in the first round St. Oliver plunketts / Eoghan Rua's, St. Brigids and St. Judes in their first championship game beat St. Peregrines, Erins Isle and St. Marys of Saggart by 21,21, and 19 points respectively. The latter three clubs mentioned are not senior clubs. They have no notion of winning it and should be intermediate, and would probably only be middle of the road intermediate clubs if Dubin had 16 senior clubs. The biggest obstacle to any reduction in any county is the egos of club delegates who are happy their club has senior status.

If Kerry had 16-20 Senior clubs, it would have half the teams who had no notion of winning it, and would reduce the strength of the divisional teams, therefore ensuring a club team winning it every year. It would overnight reduce the standard. The Kerry approach is better in that the players from the smallest Junior clubs can play on a team that would have some chance of winning the Kerry senior, and at the same time exposing them to great competition against the top senior clubs in the county with the biggest population bases, rather than playing senior with a team that is just happy to survive. Why every other county doesn't do regional teams escapes me. It is probably one of the primary reasons why Kerry with 150,000 population, and a history of mass emigration can churn out All Ireland winning teams with ridiculous regularity.

As regards, Kerry record and advantage in the provincial championships, I would say it is the fact that Intermediate is a quality competition, raises the standards, as well as the fact that a good percentage of the Mary's Caherciveen team are getting excellent competitive exposure with South Kerry's regional team. A win win all around.

galwaydublin (Galway) - Posts: 226 - 12/12/2015 11:14:38    1812729

In 2016, Munster counties will have the following number of senior clubs:
8 Kerry
9 Limerick
12 Waterford
13 Tipperary
16 Cork


Other Counties have significantly more Senior clubs:
34 Dublin
21 Galway
16 Mayo
16 Tyrone

I agree it's madness that Tipp have 13,Wicklow 14, Meath 18 & Cavan 17

Croke Park should send out recommendations that the senior championship in each county should be competed by 8 to 12 clubs and the Intermediate should be the next 12 to 16 teams .

If the 9th best club in Clare,Tipp etc.. won the intermediate they would have a real cut an all ireland title at that grade.

Kerry's dominance at club intermediate and junior level is doing severe damage to those competitions - Not Kerry's fault though,Up to other counties to get themselves in order

Dublin have won just one Junior Leinster title at club level and he same at Intermediate level

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 12/12/2015 14:12:57    1812743

Very interesting topic! One correction, though- there are 12 senior football clubs in Limerick.

football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 12/12/2015 20:49:41    1812794

Kerrys club structure is so successful it is unbelievable that every other county doesn't copy it. Has their vast riches in Senior football not convinced everyone else. They are good underage but head and shoulder above everyone else. Its the way the club game is structured that backbones the senior county team. They also play lots and lots of knock out club championship football which prepares them for intercounty championship.

A club footballer in any other county might average 2 knock out games per year. In Kerry its double that.
They also have junior and intermediate players playing senior championship football. Very few other counties do that.

Want to be successful at senior intercounty - copy Kerry.
The Dublin model is only successful due to the presence of huge amounts of hired in players from other counties. An I do mean hired in.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 13/12/2015 09:44:40    1812807

A quick question to our Kerry GAA diehards. The Kerry Juniors won the All-Ireland this year also with relative ease. If Junior Intercounty is just for players who didn't play Senior Football Championship (club or county) in the previous year, where did they get another 24 lads from to win an All-Ireland? Does every Junior and Intermediate Club in Kerry not feed into a Divisional side who plays in the SFC? Here is the list of players who hammered Mayo in Croke Park this summer. Did any of these lads play for their Diviisional side in the SFC in 2014?

The team, captained by Alan O'Donoghue of John Mitchels is as follows:

1 Shane Murphy Kilcummin
2 Dan O'Donoghue Spa
3 Jack McGuire Listowel Emmets
4 David Culhane Ballylongford
5 James Walsh Knocknagoshel
6 Tadhg Morley Templenoe
7 Gavin Crowley Templenoe
8 Brendan O'Sullivan Valentia
9 Liam Kearney Spa
10 Brian Crowley Templenoe
11 Jeff O'Donoghue Glenflesk
12 Philip O'Connor Cordal
13 Thomas Hickey Castleisland Desmonds
14 Conor Cox Listowel Emmets
15 Alan O'Donoghue (C) John Mitchels

Fir Ionaid:

16 Darragh O'Shea Ballydonoghue
17 Eamon Kiely Brosna
18 Brian Sugrue Renard
19 Michael Brennan Churchill
20 Gary O'Sullivan Listry
21 Jordan Kiely Dr Crokes
22 Adam Barry Brosna
23 David Griffin Ardfert
24 Killian Spillane Templenoe

highking (Mayo) - Posts: 168 - 13/12/2015 11:47:11    1812815

1 Shane Murphy Kilcummin
2 Dan O'Donoghue Spa
3 Jack McGuire Listowel Emmets
4 David Culhane Ballylongford
5 James Walsh Knocknagoshel
6 Tadhg Morley Templenoe
7 Gavin Crowley Templenoe
8 Brendan O'Sullivan Valentia
9 Liam Kearney Spa
10 Brian Crowley Templenoe
11 Jeff O'Donoghue Glenflesk
12 Philip O'Connor Cordal
13 Thomas Hickey Castleisland Desmonds
14 Conor Cox Listowel Emmets
15 Alan O'Donoghue (C) John Mitchels

Fir Ionaid:

16 Darragh O'Shea Ballydonoghue
17 Eamon Kiely Brosna
18 Brian Sugrue Renard
19 Michael Brennan Churchill
20 Gary O'Sullivan Listry
21 Jordan Kiely Dr Crokes
22 Adam Barry Brosna
23 David Griffin Ardfert
24 Killian Spillane Templenoe

The rule in Kerry is if you haven't played in the Senior club championship the previous year with your Club alot of these players would have played with there divisional side in the championship while guys like Jordan Kiely & Shane Murphy although play with senior clubs they never played in the senior club championship last year due to injury etc..

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 13/12/2015 17:54:37    1812845

These rules in Kerry are very different to the rest of the country. Effectively if South Kerry win the County Senior Football Championship this year, all 24 of them are eligible to tog for the Kerry Junior team the following year. Intercounty Junior is supposed to be for players who dont get chance to play Senior chamoionship. This obviously is not the case in Kerry.

highking (Mayo) - Posts: 168 - 13/12/2015 19:17:56    1812855

to be honest they should do away with this competition as it serves very little purpose,Kerry have used it as an u23 team the last 2 years and considering these guys are playing enough football as it is.

No Ulster teams,Half the Leinster teams,All of Munster and few out west is not a proper All Ireland football competition.Get rid i say

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 14/12/2015 13:01:11    1812902

galwaydublin , it isn't really a question of it being a better system - it could well be. The point is the different system allows them to operate with higher quality players than everyone else has available. It's the equivalent of one county deciding that U-21 actually means U-23 for them, and playing to their rule while everyone else has to play to the U-21 rule. It isn't really about the merits of U-23, it is about the disparity in the application.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 15/12/2015 12:28:27    1812984

The option is open to everyone though Master. 16 senior clubs arguably works well in Mayo but obviously it wouldn't in Leitrim where 12 senior clubs is probably too many. Its only right that each county should decide what is best for them, rather than having Croke Park dictate how things should be ran. I imagine if you brought a motion to Mayos convention to reduce the senior championship to 10 clubs you would get very few in support of it, even if it gave some a better chance of winning an intermediate or junior All-Ireland.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/12/2015 12:46:08    1812990

Actually, oddly enough Leitrim clubs seem to have been more competitive at intermediate level over the last few years than our Senior clubs when it comes to the Connacht Club Championships.

LeitrimDaddy (Leitrim) - Posts: 82 - 15/12/2015 14:20:34    1813013

Each county should be able to work out how many senior clubs they need, as pointed out earlier in the thread what good is it a team getting 20pt hammering in championship yet are still considered a senior club when really they aren't up to the quality. its like soccer, there are 20 teams in the premier league and only 12 in the scottish premier league. The thing being if you dont have enough teams up to that standard then they shouldn't be there to just make up a quota.

the_watcher (Antrim) - Posts: 128 - 16/12/2015 21:04:48    1813221