Time to call a halt to the rabid hunting of refs, a hallmark of tv pundits and keyboard warriors alike.

In the light of it being proven that M Deegan was correct in not awarding Tyrone that second penalty, it's important that people realise the flowing:

1 - Many decisions are very marginal and therefore fans on one side or the other will feel like the call went against them. For example, the M O'Se black card - while definitely a foul, I feel the Tyrone player took an exaggerated dive (the expression on his face is the giveaway!) and that while O'Se held him back, he didn't drag him to ground. However, this is only my opinion and the important thing is that it was marginal - an absolute opinion probably isn't relevant.

2 - Ref only see things in real time. How many posters hear or J Brolly types were screaming for Deegan's head on a platter, when the replays showed the Tyrone player grabbing the Kerry player?

3 - Refs see things at eye level. Critics should try reffing games for a year to realise the difference between this and watching it from the stands or on tv. All it takes is one player to run across your path, no matter how good your positioning is, to make your decision a difficult one.

4 - Finally, refs will make mistakes, same as players and managers. In fact, I'd venture that refs might make less mistakes than the others. For all the harsh critics of refs, the instant reply is "have you ever reffed?" or "did you make any mistakes".

To be honest, ref-bashing is often the last resort of those incapable of interesting analysis.

1914 (Clare) - Posts: 92 - 24/08/2015 12:02:25    1775103

1914, I appreciate your opinions and there is a lot of truth in what you have said but it is not good enough that after big games that the officials are being discussed more than the actual various aspects of the play. The problem is that the referees are not getting enough help from linesmen and umpires. No one expects a referee to get everything correct but there needs to be an increased role in key decision making by discussions with his assistants. To be honest umpires play very little role in croke park with the exception of calling for hawk eye to decide tight point efforts. Another problem is that the GAA are letting the referees down. The introduction of the red card has been an unmitigated disaster as it has added further confusion to implementing the rules. Deliberate foul sure every foul is deliberate. There needs to be a review with player consultation on these aspects of our great games as inconsistency in decision making by the man in the middle is frustrating supporters and teams. What is a yellow card, what is a black card and what is a red card, everybody has a different interpretation when it comes down to it in the cold light of day. Maybe an official similar to the rugby is needed who can assist the ref on key decisions. It works a treat in rugby and can only improve the key decision making. Not a whole lot wrong with our brilliant games but we don't need massive inconsistencies being the reason a team doesn't win a game and that is happening. The consistency of the inconsistency from one ref to another is frightening. Take the goal awarded to fermanagh against Dublin, everybody to a person knew it was a foul within the rules, a frontal charge on the goalkeeper is not allowed but what happens it is awarded. Imagine if that was the defining moment, there would be outrage. Things just need to be improved, get rid of the black card and introduce a TMO into the big games from provincial finals onwards and finally referees to start being consistent and we would be in an even better place.

Adamski (Dublin) - Posts: 339 - 24/08/2015 12:28:21    1775134

1914, I appreciate your opinions and there is a lot of truth in what you have said but it is not good enough that after big games that the officials are being discussed more than the actual various aspects of the play. The problem is that the referees are not getting enough help from linesmen and umpires. No one expects a referee to get everything correct but there needs to be an increased role in key decision making by discussions with his assistants. To be honest umpires play very little role in croke park with the exception of calling for hawk eye to decide tight point efforts. Another problem is that the GAA are letting the referees down. The introduction of the red card has been an unmitigated disaster as it has added further confusion to implementing the rules. Deliberate foul sure every foul is deliberate. There needs to be a review with player consultation on these aspects of our great games as inconsistency in decision making by the man in the middle is frustrating supporters and teams. What is a yellow card, what is a black card and what is a red card, everybody has a different interpretation when it comes down to it in the cold light of day. Maybe an official similar to the rugby is needed who can assist the ref on key decisions. It works a treat in rugby and can only improve the key decision making. Not a whole lot wrong with our brilliant games but we don't need massive inconsistencies being the reason a team doesn't win a game and that is happening. The consistency of the inconsistency from one ref to another is frightening. Take the goal awarded to fermanagh against Dublin, everybody to a person knew it was a foul within the rules, a frontal charge on the goalkeeper is not allowed but what happens it is awarded. Imagine if that was the defining moment, there would be outrage. Things just need to be improved, get rid of the black card and introduce a TMO into the big games from provincial finals onwards and finally referees to start being consistent and we would be in an even better place.

Adamski (Dublin) - Posts: 339 - 24/08/2015 12:28:21    1775135

1914
County: Clare
Posts: 38

1775103 Time to call a halt to the rabid hunting of refs, a hallmark of tv pundits and keyboard warriors alike.

In the light of it being proven that M Deegan was correct in not awarding Tyrone that second penalty, it's important that people realise the flowing:

1 - Many decisions are very marginal and therefore fans on one side or the other will feel like the call went against them. For example, the M O'Se black card - while definitely a foul, I feel the Tyrone player took an exaggerated dive (the expression on his face is the giveaway!) and that while O'Se held him back, he didn't drag him to ground. However, this is only my opinion and the important thing is that it was marginal - an absolute opinion probably isn't relevant.

It wasn't remotely marginal, it was a black card every day of the week. Even his own bother accepted that.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 24/08/2015 12:34:11    1775143

1914
You can see by the lack of posts on this thread that people don't care about fairness if any other team was playing Tyrone yesterday other then Kerry then people would be talking about what a fantastic game it was in brutal conditions, but because there is a serious bias against us they can see it or don't want to.
Joe brolly wants to put so much doubt in reffs minds that they will be afraid to give us any decisions because joe on his RTE pedistle will take them apart as he has being doing all year, wait till you see next weeks game, there will probably as many incidents as yesterday's game but will joe call them? Will the posters on here call them? I doubt it very much.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 24/08/2015 12:44:22    1775156

Adamski - You make a valid point about the rules in that the rules can hang a ref out to dry. How often in a single game do you see players slap an opponent in possession in an attempt to strip him of the ball? More often than not they don't get a hand on the ball which means that they are in effect making a foul. But if each of these was blown up the ref would be on a hiding to nothing.
That said, due to the physical nature of football, I'm not sure that it's ever going to be possible to have a perfect rule book, but yes, improvement is needed.

As for poor Breffni, I did state that it was only my opinion, I was merely trying to illustrate that decisions can be marginal. A pity that you missed the entire thrust of my point. Then again, I'll admit that I may not be as knowledgable and perceptive as your good self - mea culpa.

1914 (Clare) - Posts: 92 - 24/08/2015 12:50:08    1775166

Give refs a break24/08/2015 12:02:25 1914
Time to call a halt to the rabid hunting of refs, a hallmark of tv pundits and keyboard warriors alike.
In the light of it being proven that M Deegan was correct in not awarding Tyrone that second penalty, it's important that people realise the flowing:
1 - Many decisions are very marginal and therefore fans on one side or the other will feel like the call went against them. For example, the M O'Se black card - while definitely a foul, I feel the Tyrone player took an exaggerated dive (the expression on his face is the giveaway!) and that while O'Se held him back, he didn't drag him to ground. However, this is only my opinion and the important thing is that it was marginal - an absolute opinion probably isn't relevant.
2 - Ref only see things in real time. How many posters hear or J Brolly types were screaming for Deegan's head on a platter, when the replays showed the Tyrone player grabbing the Kerry player?
3 - Refs see things at eye level. Critics should try reffing games for a year to realise the difference between this and watching it from the stands or on tv. All it takes is one player to run across your path, no matter how good your positioning is, to make your decision a difficult one.
4 - Finally, refs will make mistakes, same as players and managers. In fact, I'd venture that refs might make less mistakes than the others. For all the harsh critics of refs, the instant reply is "have you ever reffed?" or "did you make any mistakes".
To be honest, ref-bashing is often the last resort of those incapable of interesting analysis. I totally agree the criticism of referees has to change but how will it considering how pundits act. How people at all levels of games from u8 up to senior act has to change before attitudes towards referees will change
I think its as much not referees seeing things at eye level but they only see it from one angle. Referees do make mistakes just like any player but will always get more criticism. agree a lot with what you say...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/08/2015 14:38:51    1775312

24/08/2015 12:28:21 Adamski
1914, I appreciate your opinions and there is a lot of truth in what you have said but it is not good enough that after big games that the officials are being discussed more than the actual various aspects of the play. The problem is that the referees are not getting enough help from linesmen and umpires. No one expects a referee to get everything correct but there needs to be an increased role in key decision making by discussions with his assistants. To be honest umpires play very little role in croke park with the exception of calling for hawk eye to decide tight point efforts. Another problem is that the GAA are letting the referees down. The introduction of the red card has been an unmitigated disaster as it has added further confusion to implementing the rules. Deliberate foul sure every foul is deliberate. There needs to be a review with player consultation on these aspects of our great games as inconsistency in decision making by the man in the middle is frustrating supporters and teams.It isn't as simple as saying referees are not getting the help they should from their fellow officials but the rule book needs rewriting. how referees are treated and respected needs to change. I assume you mean black card not red????
24/08/2015 12:28:21 Adamski
What is a yellow card, what is a black card and what is a red card, everybody has a different interpretation when it comes down to it in the cold light of day. Maybe an official similar to the rugby is needed who can assist the ref on key decisions. It works a treat in rugby and can only improve the key decision making. Not a whole lot wrong with our brilliant games but we don't need massive inconsistencies being the reason a team doesn't win a game and that is happening. The consistency of the inconsistency from one ref to another is frightening. Take the goal awarded to fermanagh against Dublin, everybody to a person knew it was a foul within the rules, a frontal charge on the goalkeeper is not allowed but what happens it is awarded. Imagine if that was the defining moment, there would be outrage. Things just need to be improved, get rid of the black card and introduce a TMO into the big games from provincial finals onwards and finally referees to start being consistent and we would be in an even better place. Just adding an extra official isn't good enough and wont improve things. The rule book needs a complete overhaul. You mention rugby. Rugby has huge issues with differences in interpretation between officials...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/08/2015 14:40:38    1775314

Enright should have gone. The rest of the incidents were touch and go. They got one penalty they maybe shouldn't have, and didn't get one they maybe should have. The lad who tried to take the gooch out at the end should have been red carded too, but wasnt. I don't see a huge amount to be complaining about to be honest.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 24/08/2015 14:50:46    1775332

1914
County: Clare
Posts: 39

As for poor Breffni, I did state that it was only my opinion, I was merely trying to illustrate that decisions can be marginal. A pity that you missed the entire thrust of my point. Then again, I'll admit that I may not be as knowledgable and perceptive as your good self - mea culpa.

No need to be try to be patronising. I understand the overall gist of your point. You insisted Marc O'Se's black card was a marginal call. I stated that it wasn't. What is marginal is whether I 'm more knowledgeable and perceptive than you. What's certain though is that Tomas O'Se is more knowledgeable and perceptive than than both of us combined.

He thought it was a definite black card.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 24/08/2015 14:53:33    1775337

2014 I agree, give the refs a break.

However I do think umpires and linesmen should be critised at certain points. Two instances in the Tipp Galway game. One was where the Galway boy swung back at the tipp guy off the ball but in full view of the linesman. Nothing done. Second one was where Lar Corbott had to tell the unpire that he last touched the ball so no 65 awarded! Surly these guys should be able to see these things happening right in front of them!!

I think that all officials at major games should be intercounty refs, from the umpires to the linesmen.

Termon (Tyrone) - Posts: 58 - 24/08/2015 14:53:33    1775338

Time to use video replay for our refs, they cannot see everything in real time and there are too many types of cards. That phony 45 yesterday gave Kerry a real boost.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1667 - 24/08/2015 15:01:16    1775346

Well said 1914 - Obviously Deegan made a few mistake that may cost him refereeing the final but my overall view of his game i'd give 6 or 7 /10 only due to the fact that he messed up with Enright and McNamee and he didnt have that much of an impact on the game and he was no Marty Duffy thats for sure but then again he didn't have to deal with the same s**t as duffy cause it was a hard physical game and both teams focused on playing football instead of diving and scrapping.

Referees have a thankless job that they volunteer to do at club and county level, given abuse game in, game out. Deegan had 7 people there to "support" him who are wired up for communication purposes. To be at a League game refereeing on your own, two sets of fans shouting all the names of the day at you hardly something that makes you wana become a ref in a hurry.

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 24/08/2015 15:04:35    1775348

Breffni, I agree with you - it is all about opinion, T O'Se's included. So, even though I've seen some posters on here agree with my point of view, I'll happily accept your side of the argument. The question is - was it M O'Se's force that pulled him down (therefore a black card) or did he make a meal of it and go to ground himself after O'Se had held him back (then a foul and a possible yellow card)? I'm not so sure either way. O'Se definitely held him and had a hand around him, but that in itself isn't a black card.

1914 (Clare) - Posts: 92 - 24/08/2015 15:18:50    1775365

ormondbannerman,

Maybe the rule book needs to be changed but in my opinion there are consistently the same issues that are causing ongoing debate. The definition of the tackle is a huge grey area and the introduction of the black card has further muddied the waters. I would hope the legislators involve the players in a constructive debates on any fundamental changes to the rules as I am sure they would clarify where the main areas of frustration are for them but referees in conjunction with the other officials need to start to get the basics correct. The debate about issues/decisions in big games are increasing year on year. Take last years semi-final kerry v maypo, some of the decisions against mayo were bordering on ridiculous and in those instances rule changes would have made no difference because the referee got some many key decisions totally wrong. Yesterday there was such inconsistency within minutes of each other, such as whether enright should have got a red card, should marc o' shea got a black one etc. etc, should the tyrone defender got a red for the late tackle on goocg etc. etc. Overall the biggest issues are the tackle needs to be redefined or at the very least examined and the card situation needs to be clarified. Outside that referees need to use their assistances in decision making and I still believe that a TMO is the right way to go notwithstanding rugby has some problems but overall the introduction of this has been a positive.

Adamski (Dublin) - Posts: 339 - 24/08/2015 15:20:15    1775367

ormondbannerman,

Maybe the rule book needs to be changed but in my opinion there are consistently the same issues that are causing ongoing debate. The definition of the tackle is a huge grey area and the introduction of the black card has further muddied the waters. I would hope the legislators involve the players in a constructive debates on any fundamental changes to the rules as I am sure they would clarify where the main areas of frustration are for them but referees in conjunction with the other officials need to start to get the basics correct. The debate about issues/decisions in big games are increasing year on year. Take last years semi-final kerry v maypo, some of the decisions against mayo were bordering on ridiculous and in those instances rule changes would have made no difference because the referee got some many key decisions totally wrong. Yesterday there was such inconsistency within minutes of each other, such as whether enright should have got a red card, should marc o' shea got a black one etc. etc, should the tyrone defender got a red for the late tackle on goocg etc. etc. Overall the biggest issues are the tackle needs to be redefined or at the very least examined and the card situation needs to be clarified. Outside that referees need to use their assistances in decision making and I still believe that a TMO is the right way to go notwithstanding rugby has some problems but overall the introduction of this has been a positive.

Adamski (Dublin) - Posts: 339 - 24/08/2015 15:20:15    1775368

1914
County: Clare
Posts: 40

1775365 Breffni, I agree with you - it is all about opinion, T O'Se's included. So, even though I've seen some posters on here agree with my point of view, I'll happily accept your side of the argument. The question is - was it M O'Se's force that pulled him down (therefore a black card)

Yes

or did he make a meal of it and go to ground himself after O'Se had held him back (then a foul and a possible yellow card)? I'm not so sure either way. O'Se definitely held him and had a hand around him, but that in itself isn't a black card.

No

Fair enough, everyone has a different opinion but I agree with legendary 5 time-allstar Tomas O'Se that his brother Marc deserved the black card he received.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 24/08/2015 15:30:09    1775376

Absolutely hilarious that Sean Cavanagh is giving out about the ref. Priceless :)

Adler (Monaghan) - Posts: 754 - 24/08/2015 15:36:22    1775384

I completely agree, refs in the GAA are easy victims.I reffed over the last few years and to be honest I could no be bothered any more.The GAA and all there sub committees are unwilling to address the issue of the tackle.One of he rules review boards a few an interpretation of the rules a few years ago that was so vague that it did not come close to addressing the issue.

It is the one big issue in gaelic football from a refs perspective, and refs are being hung out to dry big time over this.

A sin bin instead of the black cad should be introduced for fouls that deliberately make no attempt to play the ball.Teams are consistanly fouling opponents either stopping scoring opportunities or stopping opponents counter attacking especially in the last 10 or 15 minutes of games.These type of fouls are destroying gaelic football as a spectical and no one wants to address the issue.Is it mention on TV? No,just blame the ref. as usual.

ifindoubt (Donegal) - Posts: 133 - 24/08/2015 15:56:00    1775404

24/08/2015 15:20:15 Adamski
ormond, Maybe the rule book needs to be changed but in my opinion there are consistently the same issues that are causing ongoing debate. The definition of the tackle is a huge grey area and the introduction of the black card has further muddied the waters. I would hope the legislators involve the players in a constructive debates on any fundamental changes to the rules as I am sure they would clarify where the main areas of frustration are for them but referees in conjunction with the other officials need to start to get the basics correct. There is no real tackle in my opinion or at least a definition that helps match officals. How would you include players in any potential changing of the rules?
24/08/2015 15:20:15 Adamski
The debate about issues/decisions in big games are increasing year on year. Take last years semi-final kerry v maypo, some of the decisions against mayo were bordering on ridiculous and in those instances rule changes would have made no difference because the referee got some many key decisions totally wrong. Yesterday there was such inconsistency within minutes of each other, such as whether enright should have got a red card, should marc o' shea got a black one etc. etc, should the tyrone defender got a red for the late tackle on goocg etc. etc. Overall the biggest issues are the tackle needs to be redefined or at the very least examined and the card situation needs to be clarified. Outside that referees need to use their assistances in decision making and I still believe that a TMO is the right way to go notwithstanding rugby has some problems but overall the introduction of this has been a positive. Introducing a TMO will not solve much in gaelic football. Its rules that need to change not the introduction of an 8th official for a game.
24/08/2015 15:56:00 ifindoubt
A sin bin instead of the black cad should be introduced for fouls that deliberately make no attempt to play the ball.Teams are consistanly fouling opponents either stopping scoring opportunities or stopping opponents counter attacking especially in the last 10 or 15 minutes of games.These type of fouls are destroying gaelic football as a spectical and no one wants to address the issue.Is it mention on TV? No,just blame the ref. as usual. But the sin bin was tried and deemed not good enough. What can you do about that?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/08/2015 16:37:20    1775441