If there were a 2nd Tier 'TMC 16' - would Ulster vounties dominate it ?
However, it would spice up the race for Sam.

Play TMC 16/ Qual Rd 1 (all Prov non-SFlists) over 4 KO Rds - champ to AI QFs.
Initial losers of 8, 4 to Qual Rds 2, 3.
Play Prov SF 16 over 3 KO Rds - 2 unbeaten to AI QFs.
All losers of 8, 4, 2 to Qual Rds 2, 3, 4.
Qual Rds 1 to 4 (derived above) with quantities of 16, 16, 16, 10.
5 Rd 4 winners complete Open Draw AI QF field.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 30/05/2015 16:45:27    1730281

I've got a headache now

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 30/05/2015 17:13:51    1730287

Would Ulster Dominate a TMC 2nd tier competition? No No my good man, most of the Ulster sides would be in the Top 16 All Ireland :-)

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 30/05/2015 18:04:32    1730305

In my own humble opinion the 8 provincial 1st round losers should enter the Tommy Murphy Cup with a route back into the championship. For that to happen, all provinces would have to agree a seeding that would see the stronger counties avoid their respective first rounds. Ulster would have only 1 team dropping into that secondary championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 30/05/2015 19:11:09    1730321

In my original 24/7 idea, I also had the same Weakest 8. However, for overall Championship balance, I wonder if it would be better to give 5 Ulster non-SFlists a better chance via a parallel competition ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 30/05/2015 20:09:39    1730342

Only Fermanagh and Antrim would be in it. The rest are well capable of getting to an All Ireland quasar final.

yenom (Cork) - Posts: 3 - 30/05/2015 20:14:31    1730343

omahant - There was a review into all matters football related. The FRC report showed there was support for the retention of the provincial championships. Your only likely to get small changes here and there.

* A Round of 16 is one option of many by scrapping rounds 3 and 4 of the qualifiers and having the qualifier round 2 winners join the provincial finalists in a Round of 16.

* The only reason I discuss the Tommy Murphy Cup is that managers of those counties saw a valid reason for it but made the noteable suggestion that it required a route back into the championship for it to be meaningful.
- The TMC is only really required for the lower 8 counties.
- Division 4 teams felt victimised.
- Entering the 8 provincial 1st round losers would seem to be the fairest solution.
- Entering the Tommy Murphy winner into a Round of 16 or else entering the TMC runner-up into Q3 and the TMC winner into Q4 as I mentioned in other threads are a valid way of giving TMC counties a route back into the championship while wimming a competition at their level.

I believe Munster and Connaught losing semi-finalists should enter the qualifiers a round later than the losing Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists. There has to be a compromise some where. One would be Munster and Connaught semi-final losers being treated the same as losing Ulster and Leinster quarter-finalists.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 30/05/2015 20:45:42    1730356

The answer is no. The Ulster is so far ahead thing is a myth. For instance look at Monaghans path to an Ulster final this year. Beat a div 2 side and then beat the winner of a div 3 (2) vs div 4 side. I'd say at least 5 Leinster counties would fancy their chances with that draw as would the likes of Tipp and Clare. Over the years I've seen longford beat Down, Derry and Cavan in the qualifiers, have narrow defeats to Tyrone , Down (all Ireland final year) and Donegal and have numerous victories over the weaker Ulster teams in the league whilst at the same time rarely gettin through the first round in Leinster. I believe that outside the top 5 or 6 sides there are maybe 15 to 20 teams with very little between them. For example if the current (very good) Monaghan side met the current (not so good) Galway side in a Croker championship game most people would expect a close game with either side capable of winning it.

catchturnscore (Longford) - Posts: 149 - 30/05/2015 21:13:46    1730368

Considering an Ulster team only won the Tommy Murphy cup once when it was run, the answer is no. Unless you mean "Would Ulster teams dominate the Tommy Murphy cup if it were based on a format I made up, which was never used in real life", which is a fairly pointless question.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1644 - 30/05/2015 21:27:42    1730373

catchturnscore Monaghans dream draw this year is not a sensible assessment of anything Ulster. Your qualifier examples are more appropriate as I would imagine how teams approach the qualifiers would be similar to how said hypothetical competition would be approached.

But look this has been debated to death. Does Ulster have the strongest teams in Ireland - No.

Does Ulster have more strong teams than any other province - Yes.

Personally I am not convinced Monaghan are in the top 2 in Ulster even though they are in this years final.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 31/05/2015 08:12:03    1730392

Jaysus Legend talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 31/05/2015 08:21:35    1730393

In fact Legend can you explain that last paragraph again. Is the first and last sentence a contradiction or is it too early in the morning for me?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 31/05/2015 08:26:31    1730394

@Naysayer - Last paragraph correction here (+ some added detail):
I believe Munster and Connaught losing semi-finalists should enter the qualifiers a round earlier than the losing Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists. There has to be a compromise some where. One would be Munster and Connaught semi-final losers being treated the same as losing Ulster and Leinster quarter-finalists.

TMC: 8 teams - 2 Munster QF losers, 2 Connaught QF losers, 3 Leinster PR losers and 1 Ulster PR loser.

Qualifer Round 1: 12 teams - 2 Munster SF losers, 2 Connaught SF losers, 4 Leinster QF losers and 4 Ulster QF losers.
Qualifer Round 2: 10 teams - 2 Leinster SF losers, 2 Ulster SF losers and 6 Q1 winners.
Qualifer Round 3: 6 teams - TMC runners-up and 5 Q2 winners.
Qualifer Round 4: 8 teams - 4 Provincial runners-up, TMC champions and 3 Q3 winners.
Quarter-finals onwards as normal.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 31/05/2015 12:50:55    1730450

catchturnscore
County: Longford
Posts: 16

1730368 The answer is no. The Ulster is so far ahead thing is a myth. For instance look at Monaghans path to an Ulster final this year. Beat a div 2 side and then beat the winner of a div 3 (2) vs div 4 side. I'd say at least 5 Leinster counties would fancy their chances with that draw as would the likes of Tipp and Clare. Over the years I've seen longford beat Down, Derry and Cavan in the qualifiers, have narrow defeats to Tyrone , Down (all Ireland final year) and Donegal and have numerous victories over the weaker Ulster teams in the league whilst at the same time rarely gettin through the first round in Leinster. I believe that outside the top 5 or 6 sides there are maybe 15 to 20 teams with very little between them. For example if the current (very good) Monaghan side met the current (not so good) Galway side in a Croker championship game most people would expect a close game with either side capable of winning it.

The Answer is Indeed No, as the bulk of the Ulster sides ( Bar Antrim ) are in the Top 16 most of the time, Not the lower 16 or TMC.

Some of the teams you have listed as having beaten in Qualifiers or National League, or running close in Qualifiers or National League, are teams that accomplished major success on a Provincial and/or National Level at various times since 1991.

Armagh, Derry, Donegal, Down and Tyrone have won 9 x All Ireland titles between them since 1991.
Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal have won 9 x National Football League titles between them since 1992.
Armagh, Cavan, Derry, Down, Donegal, Monaghan and Tyrone have all won Ulster Championships since 1994.

It is easy to glorify the odd upset in the Qualifiers or consider the National League wins, but the difference between those teams and lower Leinster sides like Longford, Is that those Ulster teams can then up it a level against bigger opposition and produce the goods.

I have said repeatedly, It is hard to pick yourself up and motivate a group of players to play a lowly side in Qualifier Rd 1 or 2, when you've just been narrowly knocked out of a Provincial Championship of which your team had genuine hopes and beliefs of winning. Especially when your playing a side who fully expected to be playing Qualifier football in the summer.

Longford have not won a National league title since 1966, and their last Provincial title was 1968, and have never won an All Ireland title. They take Immense pride in causing the odd upset here and there, but upsets don't put you on par with the side you've just beaten. Not unless you can follow it up with a sustained run which proves your metal.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 31/05/2015 15:41:19    1730492

To Legendz-
Your 4 rounds there before the AI QFs is not too bad - EXCEPT - Cork and Kerry still have an easy ride with too few matches - beaten Muns SFlists to Rd 1, while the SFwinners are guaranteed Rd 4 like now or Rd 5 (AI QF) for Muns Champs. I much prefer your 24 (3 blocks of 8), or your Rd of 16 (although I'd want the Qual Rd 1 teams to have a 3rd chance, as all 8 Prov SFs are treated equally like now).
Back to the topic point - question has now arisen if TMC Cup should have 8 or 16 teams ?
If only 8 teams, we could split the Qualifiers into 'A' and 'B' streams, with TMC teams only continuing thru Rds 1B, 2B, 3B - and all others playing thru 1A, 2A, 3A, 4.
So in 16-team Qual Rd 1 - weakest 8 based on low NFL ranking to TMC Cup Rd 1B - the stronger 8 (or Lein/Uls QF losers) play in Rd 1A, losers get a 3rd chance in 2A and winners to 3A.
We (because you don't want me to be alone :) still have to get this thru Congress - all say 'Aye' ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 31/05/2015 16:48:59    1730528

GaryMc82 (Derry) yes three times they have caused the odd shock against Derry! As you saw again today no chance of causing an upset in leinster. The point is that in a Tommy Murphy cup situation that odd upset could be built on against the lesser teams from any of the province's including Ulster. It must happen as today's debacle helps no body least of all the people trying to get our better players to join the county set up. And yes I accept that Cavan ,Derry etc would have put it up more to the Dubs today but putting it up to the is a long way from actually beating them.

catchturnscore (Longford) - Posts: 149 - 31/05/2015 21:15:28    1730673

eight teams from ulster in divs 1 and 2 next year...10 teams from leinster in divs 3 and 4...maybe you should have a re-think about what province would win a second tier competition???

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 01/06/2015 09:50:31    1730732

Would Ulster dominate Tommy Murphy Cup?

NO!


Wins
Munster counties 2

Leinster counties 2

Connacht counties 0

Ulster counties 1

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 01/06/2015 10:12:01    1730739

Question really should be 'Would Antrim dominate Tommy Murphy Cup?' given they are the only Ulster side in the bottom 16.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/06/2015 10:20:50    1730744

who was in the Tommy Murphy Cup ?, was it just division 4 teams.

if so then Antrim would be the only team in it.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 01/06/2015 10:28:01    1730748