With games coming up the weekend and the games we played over last weekend, it got me thinking about the back door system. I know this is a huge topic but I'd like to know the thoughts of other GAA fans around the country on a few questions that started popping up in my mind.

Is it a good thing for the ever ending drawn out club championships? Counties involved longer, clubs suffer with fixtures being postponed, training prolonged, greater commitment required for more weeks of the year.

Is it good for attendances? Many a fan I've heard saying... 'It's only the first round, agh i'll go when it's knockout, there's not the same bite to it, the build up isn't the same or it doesn't matter if there's an upset, we'll get another chance.'

Has it brought a greater professionalism into the county scene? Demanding more resources such as physios, doctors, players expenses, managers (cough) expenses... The whole point was to give the weaker counties a chance of another game... But to me, I've just seen the favs get another crack at the minnows and get over their previous complacency.

And what about the 'minnows,' are they really any better for a second game in the championship? For the past few years, I've read of lads walking out on county panels to go to the states after they lose their first round game... If players do this then how can a county expect to do any better when missing some of their star players?
Also, people are then angry at these players... BUT if they have given everything for that first championship game to win and they don't deliver, can they be ridiculed for not believing they can win the next game just to be knocked out by the third game and by then it is too late by then to head stateside - enjoy the summer, earn a few quid and see a few places.

Is the back door system an attempt to be more like the Premiership and have a 'season of football' for RTE to organise a number of shows to fill up time slots?
Games shown for the sake of it and other games getting overlooked, the Christy Ring Final coming to mind, it nearly always clashes with a Ulster game and the football is shown. However, I think that is being changed this year.

For me, it's past its sell by date. Bring back the do or die championship games and let the clubs run off their own championships within a reasonable time frame... Allowing many of our players a chance to balance sport and work/life commitments.

BarStoolFan (Mayo) - Posts: 15 - 21/05/2015 16:21:48    1726669

The back door should remain until the GAA have developed a more equitable AI championship than the current model. I'm not surprised that a Mayo poster wants it scrapped given that for them 2 wins and they are in a quarter final, on the other hand Donegal will require double that effort in a tougher environment to get to the same position. Whilst it is by no means perfect its all we have to balance things out for the Ulster and Leinster teams.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 21/05/2015 16:44:55    1726685

As a Tyrone fan I think its obvious that I'm going to agree with the back door losing the Ulster final in 05 and losing to Down in the 1st round in 08. But is there another answer that the GAA can come up with. Yes there could be another method what that method is im not quite sure. I believe that a Champions League method could be suited 8 groups 4 teams immediately gives teams more championship games then top 2 go for Sam bottom 2 go for a secondary C'ship. I dont think its fair giving the less equipped teams 2 games and seasons over is fair but its not 2 games that players dedicate themselves to. We have the League and province equivalence to Ulsters McKenna Cup.

Ive seen it in many occasions club championships are impacted so much during a county performance in the Championship this could run right through to October and I dont think anyone wants it to run any further. If the games are run appropriately then there should be time to get all the counties through their respected club championship.

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 21/05/2015 16:48:49    1726687

I don't agree with the back door system, it only helps the stronger counties for example Tyrone have a 1 in 4 chance of making the AllIreland quarterfinals, Louth on the other hand will be lucky if they win the next game, no disrespect to Louth but certain counties are looking to the next game others are looking to August bank holiday weekend if the GAA narrowed the qualifiers where only 1 or 2 teams make it out of the qualifiers it may be better but still the weak counties get nowhere, maybe run it on League form Div 1 and 2 teams enter the champ for Sam where 16 teams are involved with a straight knockout system, Div 3 and 4 enter the Tommy Murphy cup, the B Champ or inter champ. The B final winners promoted to Sam, the loser play a playoff match with the loser of a playoff match between the 2 teams relegated from Div 2, winners promoted to the senior champ for next year, losers down to the B champ Tommy Murphy cup. If nobody is relegated then you will have teams just muddling along with the knowledge that they won't be relegated. It will make weak teams more determined to win the Murphy cup and then take their rightful place in the race for Sam. If in time we have 20 or more strong teams then extend the draw for Sam. At the moment weak teams have nothing to play for only pride

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 21/05/2015 17:03:28    1726700

brendtheredhand
County: Tyrone
Posts: 10224

I take your point, I tell myself the same that it's there until the GAA Chiefs find a better system... but they're not... It's around a long time now.

Hence why I think scrapping would give them a kick in the **** to sort something fairer out for everyone... Just because I'm from |MAYO| does not mean I want to see a lob-sided competition. I think it actually favours Mayo in Connacht more so than anyone in Ulster... Galway won the AI through the back door if you recall 2001. If we get stuffed on an off day in Connacht, we've got another chance and more than likely will reach the quarters.

As for Ulster, if you beat one of the big boys, you may end up meeting them further on and end up losing. How is that fair or an advantage. It happened to Monaghan not so long ago against Tyrone didn't it, 2013. I agree with you they need to change the format but it's not happening because people like the safety net there for their counties.

Do you agree that it prolongs inter-county seasons and disrupt the counties club fixtures, requires more expenses from county boards (that is re-couped from the small local club)?

BarStoolFan (Mayo) - Posts: 15 - 21/05/2015 17:16:48    1726711

A tier 2 championship would all but stop football in division 4 counties. No county player wants to train all year for one match and then play in a championship that absolutely no attention will be payed to. Longford beat Derry last year, it's not long ago that Wicklow beat Down and lost a last minute lead in Armagh, Tipp got to round 4 last year. Counties that are trying to improve e.g. Longford shouldn't be punished because a few of the lads on the Leitrim team lost interest.

Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 597 - 21/05/2015 17:17:05    1726712

Victorious87
County: Wicklow
Posts: 203

Are you saying that's ok for the hurlers in the GAA out there? There are counties that will never play in Liam McCarthy but have huge pride in the Ring Cup or Rackard. Even the Lory Meaghar mean a lot to lads in the GAA circles in England.

This idea that lads won't play or be interested if it's a A and B championship is not progressive. Inclusion and being able to achieve something is more desirable for our young men and women.

The weaker teams particpate because they have players who LOVE to play, love the game. Many many lads playing inter-county will never have a chance of winning Sam and they know this themselves but they still play. Give the competitions meaning. Look at Carlow or London's reward for winning the Christy Ring, they get to play in Leinster. Is that not something to play for?

BarStoolFan (Mayo) - Posts: 15 - 21/05/2015 17:26:47    1726716

Hi, Riverboys.

Each team (including Tyrone) which finds itself in Round 1 of the qualifiers has to win 4 matches to reach the quarter final.

The chances of winning 4 'tosses of a coin' are 1 in 16.

If all matches were a toss of a coin, Donegal would now be 7 times as likely to win Sam as Tyrone are. I know matches are not toss of a coin, but it gives an idea of the advantage gained by winning a provincial quarter (or getting a bye to the semi).

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 21/05/2015 18:14:33    1726748

A success for the strong counties, but in general a failure for the weaker counties, I'd love to see it go.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 21/05/2015 19:49:43    1726795

Correction to my earlier post. Of course Donegal have not reached the Ulster semi final. They have a 1 in 32 chance of winning Sam which is 4 times as good as the teams in Round 1 of the qualifiers. (Assuming toss of a coin).

I hope I'm right this time; I'm a long time out of school.

Sorry.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 21/05/2015 21:15:46    1726833

supersub15
County: Carlow
Posts: 1371

1726795
A success for the strong counties, but in general a failure for the weaker counties, I'd love to see it go.

What ever way you dress it up, a small county is going to struggle in a competition that puts div 4 and Div 1 teams together and at most will win 1 possibly 2 games . Offaly and Louth lads who have trained hard im sure are glad of the back door and so their summer isnt over before it starts.
For me the back door allows a small county an extra chance at a giant killing ,i know it also allows the stronger counties a bite at the cherry . but ultimately we want to see more games and the back door (while far from perfect) allows this.
wWicklow poster hit the nail on the head.

Out of curiousity what would you like to see changed that would benefit a county like Carlow.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 21/05/2015 21:54:52    1726858

The whole reason the back door system was introduced in the first place was to give weaker counties more games. It was argued that it was not fair on weaker counties that trained all year in many cases for just one championship game.

The problem is not the Qualifiers but the structure of the championship itself. Until that is resolved the back door should stay in place.

bubba83 (Dublin) - Posts: 333 - 22/05/2015 08:31:02    1726873

Look the vast majority of intercounty teams are not playing most of their football in the summer, they play it Jan - April when its wet and miserable and pitches are hard (I know the weather is poor at the minute). This needs to change. All counties should have at least three games in the summer time and an open draw group system is the only way to achieve this.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 22/05/2015 09:04:40    1726891

Right on Yew-tree.....Provencial Councils are unlikely to pull the plug mind you. "Turkey's don"t vote for Christmas" as Ciaran Whelan stated on Sunday Game

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 22/05/2015 10:24:37    1726926

BarStoolFan

I think it's different with hurling, you have to remember that the likes of the counties in those competitions have little or no hurling clubs in those counties, these lads will play hurling whatever the situation is, on a side note to that look at the division between the standard of hurling in counties now, Sligo play against the likes of Warwickshire, I know what county commitment is like and I'd never give up all that time and grief over playing in a second tier championship and having nobody even know that the matches are on, and I know plenty of lads on county panels feel the same

Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 597 - 22/05/2015 11:10:31    1726956

It would be fair to provinicial champions if they were given a second chance. So in the last 8 stage the game should go to a second leg if they lose to a team coming through the back door. So as an example if Donegal beat Tyrone and then Tyrone beat Donegal in the last 8 it should go to a second leg game so provincial winners get their second chance. But if Donegal win then Tyrone should be eliminated from the competition. Perhaps even make the last 8 a two round system.

Helm82 (Armagh) - Posts: 13 - 22/05/2015 11:30:17    1726970

BarStoolFan


Is it a good thing for the ever ending drawn out club championships? - NO. County club championship should start in August and finish by October with Provinical and all ireland club in October and November. Intercounty Championships (minor, senior and U21) should run Feb to End July.

Is it good for attendances? Whats good for attendences is competitive matches between even side - therefore a 2 tiered all Ireland championship is the answer. YOu only have to look at the Uster championship attendences to see that close games draw crowds, not nice football.

Has it brought a greater professionalism into the county scene? It has brought a greater sense of professionalism but it has also widen the gap between the big counties and the minnows.

And what about the 'minnows,' are they really any better for a second game in the championship? THe qualifiers have run their course. We need a top 16 - bottom sixteen split which then give the top 2 bottom tier teams re entry to the All Ireland. This ensure close matches and gives everyone a chance of a Q final at Croke Park.

Is the back door system an attempt to be more like the Premiership and have a 'season of football' for RTE to organise a number of shows to fill up time slots? Nothing wrong with a season of football. But it needs to be truncated and competitive to be appealing.

For me, it's past its sell by date. Bring back the do or die championship games and let the clubs run off their own championships within a reasonable time frame... Allowing many of our players a chance to balance sport and work/life commitments. - I agree with this sentiment except the do or die championship. I have previously proposed a shortened league, an earlier start to the seeded provincial championship, followed by top 16 & bottom 16 championships (world cup style groups) with back door entry to Q finals for bottom 16 winners. More matches every weekend and All Ireland final on August Bank holiday weekend.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 22/05/2015 16:14:09    1727163

If provincial championships were separate from the All-Ireland championship, the All-Ireland could be a two tier championship while lower tier counties could still compete in the provincial championships.

Top tier of 16:
Round 1 - 16 teams
Round 2A - 8 round 1 winners. Round 2B - 8 round 1 losers.
Round 3 - 4 round 2A losers and 4 round 2B winners.
Quarter-finals - 4 Round 2A winners and 4 round 3 winners.
Semi-finals.
Final.

2nd tier of 16:
Round 1 - 16 teams
Round 2A - 8 round 1 winners. Round 2B - 8 round 1 losers.
Round 3 - 4 round 2A losers and 4 round 2B winners.
Quarter-finals - 4 Round 2A winners and 4 round 3 winners.
Semi-finals.
Final.

Round 2B losers in the top tier would have to play-off with one team being relegated and the winner of the 2nd tier being promoted in their place.

Back on topic. Qualifiers have been a success. All counties deserve the guarantee of more than one game. It could be fine tuned e.g. use of league placings to seed qualifier draws.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 22/05/2015 18:41:17    1727227

Overall, the Qualifiers have been a success, with some sucessful runs by weaker counties over the years - e.g. Wicklow, Fermanagh etc.
The problem has been competitiveness - so matching teams of similar quality is the key.
My latest idea of giving 32 counties 2 chances after the Prov QFs - that is the current Prov SF 16 and Qual Rd 1 - goes along way toward addressing the structural imbalance.

Prov SF 16 - play 3 KO rds - SFs, Finals & Playoffs - 2 unbeaten teams to AI QFs.
Losers of 8, 4, 2 enter Qual Rds 2, 3 and 4, respectively.

TMC 16 / Qual Rd 1 - play 4 KO rds - champ team to AI QFs.
Initial losers of 8 and 4 enter Qual Rds 2 and 3, respectively.

AI Qualifiers - Rds 1, 2, 3 and 4 have quantities derived above of 16, 16, 16 and 10.
5 Rd 4 winners complete the 8 AI QF berths.

I notice the symmetry of this is not unlike 'legendz' 2x16 above - his without prov struc - mine with.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 23/05/2015 17:11:42    1727423

The two ideas are similar -
Legendz 2A is like my 8-team Finals and TMC QFs.
His 2B is like my 16-team Qual Rd 2.
His Rd 3 is like my 16-team Qual Rd 3.
His QFs is like my 4-team playoff and TMC SFs.
His 8-team SFs is like my AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 24/05/2015 18:13:11    1727757