Kerry's winning of sam was a great achievement. With supposed super-teams out there this year, it is hard to fathom how a team, ravaged by losses of genuinely top class players and littered with young guys who were either very young, or were a bit older and struggled to get into the team for a few years now, managed to get over the line, and did so deservingly. This was the same team that were crushed by cork in the league, albeit a system-less version. Fair enough, a massive well done to them. But what does that say about systems as regards how good guys look in them, and then out of them. I think most Kerry men would agree, this team doesn't have the class of the team of 2011 or 2012, who were littered with great players. But, that team was beaten by Donegal. My point is, are we being fooled by the system as regards how good some guys are? Were the tyrone lads of the 2000s so good, or was the system making them look a bit better? Were the Donegal lads that good, Dublin in 2011 and indeed Kerry this year? Or, was the system they were playing making them seem better players than they actually are?

Now this doesn't take away from their achievements in any way. It is just an observation that I believe warrants discussion.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 22/09/2014 10:53:52    1655083

I dont think we have been fooled by the system Master.

I just think that every system can be out-foxed on a given day.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 22/09/2014 11:00:57    1655093

Its all on the day and yesterday was not ours.

In 7 or 8 years time you might be talking about a few of those Kerry new lads as legends of the game just as the team of 04-09 are seen.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 22/09/2014 11:14:37    1655116

No we won't (apart from JOD).

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 22/09/2014 11:20:04    1655121

yes and it makes it all the more laughable when Spillane spouts his rubbish about the cream rising to the top and that good players will always beat systems. If that was the case Galway would be winning the all-ireland every year.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 22/09/2014 11:24:18    1655126

Fooled by a system is not getting the point of a team game. If there are brilliant individuals on a team, and they dont pull together they will get nothing in the end.. As a mayo person, I think you understand what is meant by this. Donegal have great footballers, maybe not the best ever, but damn good. They work hard, and dont panic. They were almost there yesterday, and it was small differences that separated us from a 3rd all ireland. i would rather lose this way than lose with a team that has brilliant individual players, that dont pull together.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/09/2014 11:25:37    1655129

I get what you're saying master but it takes great players to make these systems that you talk of work otherwise every team in the country would be able to win all Ireland's unfortunately that isn't the case.

duke_raul (Tyrone) - Posts: 993 - 22/09/2014 11:26:40    1655131

The main difference between yesterday and 2 years ago was that yesterday Kerry got the luck, two years ago it was Donegal (remember the goal from the sideline kick).

All Irelands are decided on Luck as much as skill, class or a "system". It is that that makes it so hard to win 2 back to back.

As for Spillane, what a diluded idiot.

jamesjoyce (Derry) - Posts: 126 - 22/09/2014 11:28:51    1655138

Luck?????

Wayno hit the nail on the head. Kerry outfoxed the system with their own system which was built on defence but no shortage of skill when it came to score-taking.

They also kicked some poor wides. Had they taken a few of they'd have won by five or six points.

That's the first time I've heard Donegal were lucky in 2012. Our defence was poor for both goals. I'm convinced that on the same day Donegal were so well prepared and in the zone they wouldn't have been beaten even if they hadn't such a good start.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 22/09/2014 11:41:08    1655149

Well we have certainly been fooled by people who tell us it is incredibly complicated and can only be performed after years of tweaking it and if you have the right kind of players. Kerry more or less perfected it in a few weeks. Attacking, positive football sadly takes many, many years to perfect, starting with coaching kids from the age of 8. That is why many go for the easy option of taking the negative approach.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/09/2014 11:58:43    1655169

duke_raul
I get what you're saying master but it takes great players to make these systems that you talk of work otherwise every team in the country would be able to win all Ireland's unfortunately that isn't the case.

But surely the Kerry team pre-system, getting that hiding from cork and looking in trouble, shows that you don't in fact need great players?


Donegalman, but we are then told of great individuals in those teams, and that is the point I am getting at. They are getting individual plaudits off the back of the system. A good example for me would be the McGee lads. Fine players no doubt about it, but look better in a team of 12 backs, no doubt about that either. The thing is when people praise them and compare them to other lads, this isn't taken into consideration in the comparison. If what you say was the case then it should be shouldn't it? In a team that is all about the team, how are so many lads getting individual praise and all stars? They probably shouldn't be, if we are being honest about it. Now it isn't something against the mcgees, there are lots you could point out in a similar mould, it is just an example.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 22/09/2014 12:25:17    1655207

For me the Donegal system is all about goals. If they keep any team from scoring goals they will feel they have a chance at beating any team by limiting the amount of points conceded.Kerry got 9 yesterday IIRC and without the goals Donegal would of won.

For Dublin it should be the same logic reversed. If we keep teams from scoring majors we should have enough to out score most teams with relative ease . We Havnt learnt this lesson yet and one hopes we will.

JMG blueprint is effective but not particularly adaptive. Gavin's system is not adaptive to defensive teams especially when goals are conceded. Donegal just don't score enough to counter for goals but when things go according to plan it can be devestating and has an aura of invincibility about it.

But much like the Dublin system the unpredictability of sport often wins out in the end and surprises are common.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 22/09/2014 13:05:31    1655273

For me the Donegal system is all about goals. If they keep any team from scoring goals they will feel they have a chance at beating any team by limiting the amount of points conceded.Kerry got 9 yesterday IIRC and without the goals Donegal would of won.

For Dublin it should be the same logic reversed. If we keep teams from scoring majors we should have enough to out score most teams with relative ease . We Havnt learnt this lesson yet and one hopes we will.

JMG blueprint is effective but not particularly adaptive. Gavin's system is not adaptive to defensive teams especially when goals are conceded. Donegal just don't score enough to counter for goals but when things go according to plan it can be devestating and has an aura of invincibility about it.

But much like the Dublin system the unpredictability of sport often wins out in the end and surprises are common.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 22/09/2014 13:05:33    1655274

The fact that the same teams keep coming to the top table year after year shows they have the players . If it was only about the system where the average player is king then the AI would be a lottery where you had 20 contenders . Think you're thinking too deep about this . You need top players to "get" the system , same as it's always been .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 22/09/2014 14:06:02    1655340

Every game has moments on which the outcome turns, a hop of a ball, a bad error, a poor refereeing decision, a poor managerial option.

Yesterday there were three. McNiallis's mistake which led to the first goal, Durkan's mistake which led to the second & McFadden's effort hitting the post.

You can talk about systems till you are blue in the face but it is often small things, a miskick or a misfield or a ball coming back off a post a la McFadden that often decides the outcome.

Sometimes the footballing Gods are with you and sometimes they aren't. Systems are not the be all & end all of everything.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 22/09/2014 15:22:59    1655427

you are referring to a league game against cork..how did kerry do v cork in the championship not even playing this system?..this kerry team took a while to develop and only when donaghy returned to form along with moran breaking into the team did they look like capable all ireland winners...i think the system certainly helped donegal as they have a lot of limited players whereas tyrone and kerry fellas of the 00s were that gifted that it didnt really matter what style they played and this was proved time and time again where they both played a variety of ways

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 22/09/2014 15:35:12    1655445

GreenandRed
County: Mayo
Posts: 1156

1655149
Luck?????

Wayno hit the nail on the head. Kerry outfoxed the system with their own system which was built on defence but no shortage of skill when it came to score-taking.

They also kicked some poor wides. Had they taken a few of they'd have won by five or six points.

That's the first time I've heard Donegal were lucky in 2012. Our defence was poor for both goals. I'm convinced that on the same day Donegal were so well prepared and in the zone they wouldn't have been beaten even if they hadn't such a good start.

___________________________

Yes luck. Any team needs luck to win an All Ireland, given there is often so little between two teams. Its obviously not soley down to luck but you need it no doubt. Yesterday Kerry's luck was in, had Durcan not played the ball straight to Donaghy, had McFadden gotten his punch 1 inch more to the left etc, we may be having a whole different analysis today. There was nothing between the teams before that.

As the Donegal man put it on another thread if Kerry Donegal played 10 matches it could be 5 each, which Id agree with. Kerry and Donegal have found a way to match and compete with each other. On any given day its is the rub of the green that makes the difference.

jamesjoyce (Derry) - Posts: 126 - 22/09/2014 15:40:44    1655455

fabio8
you are referring to a league game against cork..how did kerry do v cork in the championship not even playing this system?..

So Declan oo'sullivan always operated as a sweeper then...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 22/09/2014 15:51:22    1655465

they werent playing anything close to the style they operated with yesterday..it was exceptionally conservative compared to what they normally do..where were the sweepers against mayo master?...they often had 2-3 players sweeping up yesterday

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 22/09/2014 15:54:18    1655468

Fooled no, but blinded perhaps.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 22/09/2014 16:21:03    1655496