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Just read John Allens comments on hurling being elitist , HQ structuring everything in favour of top tier counties , wondering what people think , it would be helpful if his points were discussed as opposed to the man , for me I think he's 100 % right everything is been done in the game to keep top counties happy , I say this as someone from a county in top tier but it wasn't always so ,
We have all marvelled at ML Rangers exploits and applaud good shows occasionally put on by the laois Carlows of the world , but structures are set against them , maybe J Allens views are a bit simplistic but they do have merit IMO .
For me anyway one of the reasons I was delighted for Clare this year was that it shows counties whats achievable but a hand from powers that be would go along way , as asked by Allen .
Teams / fans want to play kilkenny Tipp etc making the argument they would only get slaughtered will never make them better either , Allen has mentioned the problem without nessecarily suggesting the solution , there has to be a carrot to really make the donkey move , currently that carrot is not enough .
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 11/04/2014 15:32:08
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Or Antrim should be in 2A. Antrim got a second bit of the cherry as well in the play off game. Ultimately though Kerry are the ones that are losing out here.
I would suggest though that both Offaly and Antrim stay in the second tier and that Kerry and Carlow both come up to join them. Let us go back to four groups of 8 teams (or thereabouts as Warickshire, London, Fingal mean that there are 34 teams - Cavan don't compete for now). Let us invite more teams to the top table - not just have 12.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 11/04/2014 15:53:10
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11/04/2014 15:53:10
bennybunny
Or Antrim should be in 2A. Antrim got a second bit of the cherry as well in the play off game. Ultimately though Kerry are the ones that are losing out here.
I would suggest though that both Offaly and Antrim stay in the second tier and that Kerry and Carlow both come up to join them. Let us go back to four groups of 8 teams (or thereabouts as Warickshire, London, Fingal mean that there are 34 teams - Cavan don't compete for now). Let us invite more teams to the top table - not just have 12. Don't think there should be 2 groups of 8 at top tier but the divisions of 34 teams should be - 3 groups of 6 and then 2 groups of 8 which should be split into groups of 4.
That means everyone gets what they want. The elite get their groups of 6 and straight promotion between each group with 2nd playing off against 2nd bottom for promotion/relegation
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 11/04/2014 19:25:16
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Fair play to john Allen, he is 100% correct in his article. All you have to do is look at the league this year and we were beaten by Kerry and deservingly so and now Kerry have to play Offaly to get promoted, pure and absolute joke. Kerry and Carlow bet everyone in 2a this year at there ease and will more than likely will end up in the same league again next year. How are they to get any better. I hope Kerry win tomorrow but with Offaly after playing at a higher level all year it's hard to expect a win for Kerry. All the GAA are worried about is money nothing else.
TopFan (Carlow) - Posts: 166 - 11/04/2014 20:25:21
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The system is designed to keep the top counties where they are, Saturday's game is unfair on Kerry and the improving counties. Offaly however, have to go and win the game, despite the unfairness of the league. It won't be an easy game for Offaly.
Promotion/relegation should apply as in football, can the system be changed by counties voting against it at Congress?
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 11/04/2014 21:45:46
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There is more focus on the league now because teams are operating closer to championship pace than they did in the 70s and 80s. Back then it was not unusual for the likes of Tipp to be in Division II for a year. Waterford I recall once were even n the third division when divisions were all 8 teams. The likes of Dublin, Antrim, Laois, Westmeath were up and down like a whore's drawers! Kerry and Down spent at least one year in the top division. I remember Dublin playing Kildare and Mayo, and getting beaten by Roscommon! And no-one made any issue of teams not getting relegated or promoted. They just got on with it.
So would agree with Bennybunny's suggestion of return to that format with two up and two down. If you end up the wrong side of that then you can have no complaints and with the greater intensity now it would lead to genuine league once everyone knew where they stood.
hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 12/04/2014 11:59:46
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There's an elite in every sport, that's why they're called the "elite".
The problem in hurling (and football, but hurling more so) as to why the elite rule the roost so much is that the provincial structure is the be all and end all, especially true when it comes to Munster hurling.
Teams need games to improve, to go on a run of games to figure out the best positions, tactics etc. As it is most counties are gone after two games so they have very little chance to improve.
Case in point, Clare last year, after getting more games through the backdoor, came across their best formation and tactics and improved with every game. Now what would have happened if they had met a other than Laois and then Wexford that may have been too strong for them at the time? They may have been knocked out, and not figured out themselves, and mightn't be AI champs or have the self belief and confidence they now have. The extra games helped Clare, and bear in mind that Clare had played 10 championship games in 4 seasons until 2013, hardly the best way to develop young lads.
Tipp in 2010 also needed the extra games to sort out the kinks in their side. By the time they got to the final, the were as prepared as they could have been. Had they gone through Munster, they might not have figured out the problems, or the attitude needed.
Offaly last year gave Kilkenny a shot, and didn't disgrace themselves either. They really put it up to Waterford the next day, only losing by a few points. But they lost, and didn't hurl again until the league this year.
Dublin last year, got a run of games and a bit of momentum form each game. They went on to have their best championship in decades. I think its universally agreed that the run of games did them the world of good.
The point is, as long as the provincial structures are in place, then counties will never get a run of games together to improve, unless they get lucky with the draw, and if they can't improve then the elite will never really be challenged, perhaps once in a while when a Clare comes along.
The fairest method would be to relegate the provincial system to a cup competition, and have a league based championship, with 2 groups of 7.
Top of each group seeded with a guaranteed a home QF as reward for topping the group. 2nd team of each group straight into QF's to be played at neutral venues.
3rd of each group plays 4th of the other, and 5th of each group plays 6th of the other. Winner of the four games go into open draw for the QF's, and the championship would play out from there.
Losers of the 5th v6th games go into relegation SF's against the 7th sides of both groups. Losers of the relegation final drops into the Christy Ring cup.
A similar system could be put in place for the lower competitions then as well.
Plenty of games for sides to improve, with the knockout phase of the championship being based on how well you do in the league phase. Plenty of opportunities for teams to improve themselves, and guaranteed at least one do-or-die knockout game.
dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 12/04/2014 12:45:38
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