TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6096

1344014
Only if you can find the east side of london and new york mesamis...

I suppose what it really boils down to is why do dublin feel they need 10 times the mean population to compete with the rest of us? Are you really that poor?

I wouldn't presume to lecture someone from NYC or London about the make up of their city.........

What it also comes down to is why do you feel the need to split a county that only has the 3rd highest population of the competing teams in the All-Ireland?

That is of course if it is only down to population, which you've said it is.............except when it was because you were worried about some sort of Dublin domination that MIGHT happen..........but now you think we're terrible so it's not about winning..........it's about population..........except it's not because we're only the 3rd biggest..................except it is because they don't count......................

No answers for why or how.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 06/03/2013 14:29:10    1344060

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6094

I suppose what it really boils down to is why do dublin feel they need 10 times the mean population to compete with the rest of us? Are you really that poor?

In fairness Master Dublin dont Feel that they need 10 times the population. The GAA has been set up on parish, county & provincial lines since it's inception. I don't think it was some dastardly Dublin plot to do down the culchies!!

Thats just the way it is & I see no appetite from anywhere to change. If there was an uproar from around the country then fair enough & if they wanted to experiment at underage then ok, but I can never see it at senior level & I for one wouldn't vote for it.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 06/03/2013 14:30:55    1344062

MuckrossHead
County: Donegal
Posts: 604
______

Fair play

You are one of those that have looked at this in a reasonable manner and have drawn your conclusions based on that

Themaster is all over the place on this topic. Jumping from one idea to another...

It's farcical to demand Dublin be split when we don't even have the highest GAA playing population in the country!

Enough said.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 06/03/2013 14:40:08    1344074

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6097

1343937
you want to slit dublin becuase they have their underage strcutures ut in place and have been doing an awful lot of hours on the training ground developing kids,how on earth does this mean dublin are running their county badly,you contradict yourself in saying we have too many to pick from and then turn around say dublin are running it badly becuase they dont have 1 million people that are registered in the county all laying gaa!!! thats ridiculous to think that can happen in a capital city as every sporting organistaion is bigger in dublin also then in other countys you still seem not to be able to grasp that concept.
dublin have not got more raw materials they just went and got a big sponsor theres nothing got to do with their population or buying a sponosr is it?

No I dont, it is because they have 10 times the numbers as the average county, not because they have underage structures! Every county has underage structures, but every county doesnt have 10 times the amount of lads in those gaa structures! They should be running away with the all ireland. If kerry had 10 times the numbers dublin have who do you think would win? The fact that they arent indicates that they arent run well in terms of success at intercounty level. That doesnt mean that we should give them a pass though does it? If they arent run well that is really their own problem. As I said before, do we give kilkenny footballers a 10 point lead because they cant get their act together? Of course not. Everyone should be on the same starting point and may the best team win. Dublin are on a different starting point. Is it so much to ask to even this out?
Also you keep talking about bigger numbers in dublin, and stating I dont really graspt the point. But it is yourself that doesnt grasp the point. Dublin have 10 times of everything, that mean 10 times the amount of people not into gaa, but it also means they have 10 times the amount of people who are, does it not? They dont have just 10 times the amount of non-gaa people, that doesnt make any sense at all.

but we dont have 10 times more playing then any other county,where are you getting that from as cork have the most people playing gaa.
thats a stupid point to say if kerry had cerain amount who do you think would win it dont matter how many live there as you can only field 15 players and by training the same amount of players on panels how does it make it any easier for dublin then kerry?
dublin is run well i dont see how its not? just becuase other teams have beat us at senior level does not mean a county is not run well so by your reckoning dublin should never lose a match is that it? simply becuase the population is a certain amount?
no a structure should be put in place to promote and develop the game from under 9s up in kilkenny that would make sure they would improve.
how are dublin on a differant starting point do dublin train before everybody else,do dublin have more players on their starting line ups? did dublin start playing gaelic football years before any other county?
no is the answer as i dont know where your getting dublin has 10 times that mount of everything? so is there 10 times more people with brilliant sun tans in dublin then any other county thats a ridiculous point to try make which does not make any sense at all so you must think there is 10 times more dogs live in dublin becuase there is 10 times more people to own them but what if people dont buy dogs does that mean there still has to be because of the population?
i am trying to get you to see if you break the numbers down there is more people playing other sports in dublin then there is in other countys which is obvious as the other organistaions are stronger in dublin just like the gaa is too,so while theres more people live there not all of them have to play gaa can you not see this.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/03/2013 14:46:05    1344080

Master,

No harm, but trying to wade through some of your posts is like watching Oireachtas Report!!!

Shorten it down a bit, use more paragraphs & I might be able to get to the end without losing the will to live!!

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 06/03/2013 15:17:13    1344118

The Master,

To correct you, to say Dublin have ten times the playing numbers as other counties isn't true. My point was that there is an increased demand for players at adult grade by soccer clubs in Dublin. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't alter that fact. I pointed out the realities of the situation, realistically the Dublin team consists of players primarily from Division 1-4 in Dublin Adult football. Mostly division 1-2 if we are really honest!
There are plenty of counties out there with two strong adult divisions etc.

Taking the first four Divisions I gave you a number......1000 players of a high enough standard to be considered to play senior level intercounty football. That is nowhere near ten times Corks playing population, Kildares playing population etc etc. Many of the guys playing top class senior could easily play intermediate/high level junior soccer. And the soccer clubs are at them to play all the time.

Now to the reality


Repeat myself; Dublin have negotiated a great deal with Vodafone, Fair play to them. The reason they can do that is the marketability of the Brand in Dublin; players going to games etc! TheMaster; you aren't a fool, you already know this! Jersey sales and bums on seats!

As I said in a previous comment, most counties aren't successful because of their structures for games, not because of numbers. Yes this does affect the Leitrims of the GAA, where emigration and employment has been a huge drain on playing numbers. But for most counties the drain in bodies has been relative to the overall size of the population.

Structural issues.....

Dublin realised that there was lack of transfer from underage to senior, a lack of skill; the county were wasting talent basically. They also realised they had competition from other sports. Soccer mainly but rugby is gaining popularity. A plan was put in place to develop and nurture underage and harness the talent that was out there and keep them playing Gaelic Football. Also huge emphasis was placed on reviving hurling in the capitol. So development panels at underage grade levels were set up. Long story short.....it has worked well and Dublin have come a long way.

Bigger playing numbers underage = bigger costs.

The key is targeting.

You can still be successful if you develop players and have smaller playing numbers. But it has to be done at underage level. Like Dublin are playing competitively at two codes underage and trying to compete at senior level in both codes. It costs.......its not like the 5 million deal Dublin secured from Vodafone pays the players!!!

It helps, but all successful counties have had that kinda support from sponsors in recent times. Look at how much Armagh/Tyrone/Kerry spent at the height of their powers. Are they competing at both codes???

Its not how much you have its how you spend it. Kilkenny football is non-existant due to the county board refusing to fund it or develop it. So they have a big budget for the hurlers every year. Small Numbers, relatively big budget.

Cutting Dublin in half wouldn't help anyone else, it would just make Dublin relatively weak and brandless???

Why would Dublin agree to that.

Us Dubs funnily enough are from Dublin....not Fingal/North Dublin/South Dublin. It would damage the brand enormously....makes no sense!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 06/03/2013 18:35:49    1344263

Please stop this debate now lads, please : )

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8589 - 06/03/2013 19:06:51    1344283

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6094

I suppose what it really boils down to is why do dublin feel they need 10 times the mean population to compete with the rest of us? Are you really that poor?

I had a strong inkling that after been found out you would eventually let your guard down and reveal your underlying bias. You covered it well but once cornered in the sense that very few people echoed your sentiments, a leopard usually shows its spots. The above remark certainly proves that to my mind. I feel this topic has run its course now and thats my last input to this thread.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 06/03/2013 19:33:21    1344300

No not at all seany, in fact I purposely avoided this point because I knew how it would be construed, but when every argument is met with the rubbish I have seen on this thread, all I can do is put the question to those who are arguing against me in its simplest terms. I mean one argument is one guy cant find east, the other makes the ridiculous point that because cork have more clubs they automatically have more players...
That is the underlying basis behind keeping dublin as they are is it not? People feel that to stay competitive they need to stay as they are, i.e. 10 tims bigger than the average. I am just asking why that is? Surely it is only a reasonable point? If you went into your local bookies and said I want 10 times the odds that everyone else is getting do you think they wouldnt ask you why you need it?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 07/03/2013 10:33:00    1344556

Dublin haven't said they want ten times the odds, that's just the way it has worked out. It isn't something Dublin have engineered.

The fear people would have is that you would lose far more than you would gain by dismantling the present county based system. I know you say that it only applies to Dublin but once Dublin was split why stop there. There would then be calls for Antrim to be split followed by Cork and so on.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 07/03/2013 11:03:12    1344581

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6117

1344556
No not at all seany, in fact I purposely avoided this point because I knew how it would be construed, but when every argument is met with the rubbish I have seen on this thread, all I can do is put the question to those who are arguing against me in its simplest terms. I mean one argument is one guy cant find east, the other makes the ridiculous point that because cork have more clubs they automatically have more players...
That is the underlying basis behind keeping dublin as they are is it not? People feel that to stay competitive they need to stay as they are, i.e. 10 tims bigger than the average. I am just asking why that is? Surely it is only a reasonable point? If you went into your local bookies and said I want 10 times the odds that everyone else is getting do you think they wouldnt ask you why you need it?

and yet you could never explain what part of Dublin it constituted............but then you climbed down and said you weren't in favour of a NSEW split after all...................

You've gone to pure population as your reasoning now, despite the fact that we've only the 3rd highest population in the football championship.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 07/03/2013 11:33:16    1344601

But muckross, surely if they dont actively want it, then they wouldnt be so much against the idea of removing it? Surely that indicates that they dont want to give up this advantage at the very least? I am just asking why that is.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 07/03/2013 11:51:27    1344613

what advantage the master?
its plain and simple cork has more people playing gaa so that means they have the largest pick!!!!!!
how do you not understand this?

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 07/03/2013 12:02:14    1344627

hill16no1man
what advantage the master?
its plain and simple cork has more people playing gaa so that means they have the largest pick!!!!!!
how do you not understand this?

What evidence do you have of this? Please dont say it is because they have more individual clubs and every club has 25 players... I gave you more credit than that...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 07/03/2013 12:11:25    1344648

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6121

1344613
But muckross, surely if they dont actively want it, then they wouldnt be so much against the idea of removing it? Surely that indicates that they dont want to give up this advantage at the very least? I am just asking why that is.

1 There is no obvious way of doing the split, east/west, north/south or something else.

2 The bandwagon effect, why stop at Dublin?

3 The GAA structure is based on parish/county/province & GAA people buy into that big time. It's part of the culture of the Association, "mortas cinne" it's called in Irish which translates into "pride of place".

4 Dublin along with Kerry is a very successfull brand & meeting the Dubs is a high point in every calendar.

5 They are not in any way dominant on the playing fields & to dilute their strength would I feel lessen their hold over young Dublin kids who feel a real affinity for their county.

You do have a point in what you are saying, I just feel that the potential downsides outweigh any potential advantages.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 07/03/2013 12:37:46    1344677

Ok, I will offer a rebuttal for your points.

1 They are already split into development squads on this basis, so obviously there is a very straightforward, and already existing method for this.

2 Stop at dublin because at present they are the only team who look like they are capable of making their popuation imbalance an issue on the field of play. It is simply trying to keep a balance. I accept that you would probably have to wait until they started showing some level on dominance across various levels, although strictly speaking that shouldnt be the case.

3 Surely the gaa structure is built on fair play above all else? This is the issue I have with these excuses that are being offered, none of them are an excuse for an unfair system.

4 Again, is gaa a sport or a soap? Fair play is the most important factor.

5 I disagree, look at gaa in tyrone for example. They were the bridesmaids of the gaa for a long time. Did that stop them putting a team together in the 00s that won 3 AI's? Youngsters dont play football simply because they have a good intercounty team. The good intercounty team is a side-effect of getting the youngsters interested. I actually think it would introduce more youngster to the game in dublin, simply because there isnt enough places available for the numbers they have.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 07/03/2013 13:13:01    1344698

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6124

1344698
Ok, I will offer a rebuttal for your points.

1 They are already split into development squads on this basis, so obviously there is a very straightforward, and already existing method for this.

As a trial to get players into the Dublin development team.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 07/03/2013 14:10:26    1344744

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6124

1344698
Ok, I will offer a rebuttal for your points.

1 They are already split into development squads on this basis, so obviously there is a very straightforward, and already existing method for this.

2 Stop at dublin because at present they are the only team who look like they are capable of making their popuation imbalance an issue on the field of play. It is simply trying to keep a balance. I accept that you would probably have to wait until they started showing some level on dominance across various levels, although strictly speaking that shouldnt be the case.

3 Surely the gaa structure is built on fair play above all else? This is the issue I have with these excuses that are being offered, none of them are an excuse for an unfair system.

4 Again, is gaa a sport or a soap? Fair play is the most important factor.

5 I disagree, look at gaa in tyrone for example. They were the bridesmaids of the gaa for a long time. Did that stop them putting a team together in the 00s that won 3 AI's? Youngsters dont play football simply because they have a good intercounty team. The good intercounty team is a side-effect of getting the youngsters interested. I actually think it would introduce more youngster to the game in dublin, simply because there isnt enough places available for the numbers they have.[/b

1 There is a big difference between development squads & the Dublin senior team. Would you also split up the club leagues & championship?

2 Who says there is going to be an playing imbalance? I see no evidence of any description. If you have evidence let's see it.

3 The GAA structure at county level was not built on fair play as there was always a population imbalance going right back to the founding of the Association. If fair play is going to be the criteria then every team playing at county level will have to have a roughly even pick. This is impratical. The founders recognised this too & did not found the county teams along population lines but instead went for county lines which people could recognise & buy into.

4 I never mentioned anything about a soap, that is to misunderstand the true meaning of "brand". Once again fair play where practical is important, but your suggestion of a root & branch upheaval of the whole Association, which would have to be carried out to implement your version of fair play is too high a price to pay.
15 V 15 on the field of play is fair enough for me.

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6125

2 Stop at dublin because at present they are the only team who look like they are capable of making their popuation imbalance an issue on the field of play. It is simply trying to keep a balance. I accept that you would probably have to wait until they started showing some level on dominance across various levels, although strictly speaking that shouldnt be the case.


So you think that you'll have to wait for Dublin to dominate..............but you don't want to because you want it now!!!!

A county must be split because Master THINKS that they MIGHT dominate.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 07/03/2013 15:05:21    1344788

1 There is a big difference between development squads & the Dublin senior team. Would you also split up the club leagues & championship?

Why? What is the difference? Both are squads are they not? As regards, leagues and championship, possibly, I dont know. Those things could be developed with time. This notion that for any improvement to be made we must have a perfect answer for every eventuality is not realistic. The reality is you take time to see how things go and work from there.


2 Who says there is going to be an playing imbalance? I see no evidence of any description. If you have evidence let's see it.

The number of kids coming through in dublin as opposed to other places. A dublin club could have 100 odd kids for an age group, in other counties clubs are amalgamating to make 20. The funds available is also at an imbalance. Fundraised properly, I dont doubt, but as regards fairness it makes things uneven. The analogy of the middlewieght boxer against a heavyweight is a good example of the situation. By definition there has to be an imbalance, unless you have evidence that kids from dublin are somehow not as capable at gaa as other counties? If you have let us see it.


3 The GAA structure at county level was not built on fair play as there was always a population imbalance going right back to the founding of the Association. If fair play is going to be the criteria then every team playing at county level will have to have a roughly even pick. This is impratical. The founders recognised this too & did not found the county teams along population lines but instead went for county lines which people could recognise & buy into.

Ah now that is a bit of a stretch. Every sport is built on the basis of fair play at the very highest level. The numbers and capabilities that are there today, were not there when that system was set up. Similarly, are we to be held hostage to this system? Unable to develop the game as times change? Then how could we ever change the rules as we regards fisted goals or off the ground pick up etc? The parameters of the game change. We are now bringing in rules around cynical play, should they be discarded because they were not an issue when the gaa was founded?

4 I never mentioned anything about a soap, that is to misunderstand the true meaning of "brand". Once again fair play where practical is important, but your suggestion of a root & branch upheaval of the whole Association, which would have to be carried out to implement your version of fair play is too high a price to pay.

No I never misunderstood it. You were offering me spectacle as an excuse as to why the game shouldnt be fair. I agree fairness to the point of practicality is required, but what is so impractical about lads wearing a different jersey? Where are these impracticalities? The numbers are there, the divide has already been defined, the grounds are there, what is impractical?


15 V 15 on the field of play is fair enough for me.

Hmm. In the same fashion lance armstrong still had to cycle the tour de france? Ah sure let him off, he still has to peddle like the rest of them... Sure if he falls off his bike it wont have helped him at all will it! Doesnt really make sense does it? (Obviously, before the tears kick off, the fact that armstrongs advantage was illegal doesnt come into this point, for this example it is just something other didnt have.)

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 07/03/2013 15:37:38    1344813