TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6035

1341076 Again seany I point out, I am merely going off the figures o'rourke provided. Your 'baseline' issues can be sorted out in one fell swoop; increase it to suitable level. Clearly I am just trying to use figures that make things fair. So for arguments sake, we will just say we will split dublin into parts that bring them in line with everyone else. Do you not think this is fair?

No it cannot be just be raised to a suitable level to suit one's argument. The baseline figure, is a figure that delineates what is fair and what is not fair in terms of the argument that you have echoed to support. Under this argument, a certain population is either fair or its not. You can't just make it up. This is why i asked you percisely to state what you felt this figure of what fairness should be.

In terms of bringing Dublin in line with 'EVERYBODY ELSE'. We'll its back to the baseline figure again. What county do you wish to use, and why pick that county? How about the lowest which is Leitrim pop 31,000. That would mean splitting Dublin into 40 different teams, and Antrim, Cork, Derry, Limerick etc etc into about 10-15 different teams. Or a midrange county like your own Mayo, pop 130,000. That would involve splitting Dublin 9 times, Antrim 4 times and so on and so on. Would this work?

Am i suggesting this happen, no! But you cannot just pick Dublin as the problem considering that many other counties have up to 100 times the population of the smaller counties. There is no real logic to that argument without an ulterior motive such as dislike for a particular county. My point is that O'Rourke hasn't really thought this through. To my mind there are many other variables that contribute to success and there is no evidence that population is one of them. What i would suggest is that there is probably a lower level population that impedes counties such as Longford, Leitrim and Carlow etc. This may, and only may, help explain why they win very little or nothing.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 01/03/2013 19:29:23    1341088

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6006

1340539
witnof, it is no coincidence that the usa and china get so many medals at the olympics. The same applies here.

theres a differance there,both usa and china actualy have more people in their teams for the olympics thus meaning they have a higher percentage of getting medals
where as dublin can only enter 15 players on a starting line up the same as every other county

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/03/2013 19:42:34    1341093

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6035

1341070 MuckrossHead, why do you have to wait until the advantage has had an adverse affects on the sport before you would act? I agree that this is probably what will have to happen, but in truth we shouldnt be waiting that long. If something isnt fair then it isnt fair, regardless of whether it has happened to affect competition or not up to that point.

Would you say the same about countries competing in the world cup . Some should be split in two take brazil 200 million, if it isnt fair then it isnt fair.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 01/03/2013 20:29:52    1341110

I wonder if Dublin weren't successful would there be talk of splitting them up. for goodness sake let them enjoy their success is while it lasts. what about splitting up Kilkenny in hurling.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 01/03/2013 20:33:37    1341112

At the end of the day

I think if we start to dominate (Dont see it happening to the same level of Kerry/Cork/Kilkenny) but if we do and it makes a joke of the whole thing

Then yes we need to sit down and discuss this.

Until then all this is pointless.

If people are so afraid of that outcome then for now they'll just have to carry that fear.

Because you cant just chop and change because you're afraid something might happen.

Hopefully we'll win a few AI's over the next 15 years - I'd be happy enough with that - more than happy.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 01/03/2013 21:35:36    1341141

Seany16

You are probably right. A lower threshold in terms of population does have an adverse affect, probably anyway. It must be hard for Leitrim/Fermanagh/Longford etc to compete. It would be especially hard to see either of them dominating for long periods.

However (there is always one of these), these counties have a few things going for them: (1) they have some of the highest clubs to population ratio (a lot higher than the likes of Cork and Dublin) and (2) they have growing population which, if they can harness (ie put in hard work) they can actually increase their chances of winning/competing in the future.

The Master

The stats that O'Rourke chose to ignore was the change in population from the last census. Dublin has a growing a population but it is actually growing slower than the other counties of Leinster.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/03/2013 21:39:59    1341143

Beelzedub
County: Dublin



Because you cant just chop and change because you're afraid something might happen.

Thats it in a nutshell.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 01/03/2013 21:44:42    1341147

Ah for gods sake seany, I picked that number off the top of my head going off the o'rourke article for the sake of an example. You cant throw out the whole thing because of the number. The bottom line is dublin have twice as many as the next biggest county, antrim. That is a difference of 600,000+ people When you consider that the average county only has a total of around 130,000 people, it is obvious that there is a massive imbalance there. I am simply trying to address this imbalance. So instead of trying to find fault, maybe you could come up with a system yourself?

bennybunny, what you are saying is true, but that only indicates that there was even more of an imbalance in the past. Surely it should still be addressed in the here and now, regardless of that fact?

The thing is, dublin could genuinely field 2 teams that could challenge. In truth the current system probably isnt fair on a lot of lads in dublin who with a bit of development and experience could possibly be outstanding intercounty footballers. There simply has to be a large amount of lads that dont get enough of a chance, who could well develop into superior players than those who are in the county setup. In fact, I would be sure that this is the case.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/03/2013 12:14:49    1341208

The Master

So because you can't explain something there's nothing that can be done for me? !

I've continually started that you can't split Dublin in four in a fair and workable manner and you've failed to prove me wrong, yet your failure is somehow my fault!

Like on other threads where you call for the hampering and or destruction of Dublin as a part of the GAA it's all based on your fantasy that Dublin are going to dominate football and hurling for ever more. There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest this will happen. Absolutely nothing concrete to say that it will happen. Nothing.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 02/03/2013 12:15:03    1341209

I've continually started that you can't split Dublin in four in a fair and workable manner and you've failed to prove me wrong, yet your failure is somehow my fault!

Totally false. What is unfair about an even split based on population and geographical position? What is unworkable about it? You keep saying that over and over, but it clearly isnt true. If you personally have issues grasping it then you problem lies in basic mathematics.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/03/2013 12:24:51    1341215

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6038

1341215
I've continually started that you can't split Dublin in four in a fair and workable manner and you've failed to prove me wrong, yet your failure is somehow my fault!

Totally false. What is unfair about an even split based on population and geographical position? What is unworkable about it? You keep saying that over and over, but it clearly isnt true. If you personally have issues grasping it then you problem lies in basic mathematics.

The problem with your argument lies in where to establish the baseline.
The smallest county is Leitrim. To be totally fair then we need to split every other county up so that each team is roughly the size of Leitrim. This is simply unworkable & will do away with county football as we know it. Are you seriously proposing this?

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 02/03/2013 12:46:32    1341219

No we dont muckross. I understand the point you are making, but the economies of scale of the gulf in population make it slightly different. Dublin have over 600,000 people more than everyone else. That alone is nearly 19 times the size of leitrim. 2 teams of a standard capable of winning the AI could be drawn without issue. In fact, even 3 would probably be possible. So why not just do that then? Instead of trying to choke the life out of it? I mean we all know that splitting up every county in the country to match leitrim isnt a possibility, as fair as it is in theory, it isnt going to happen. 2 teams in 1.3 million people competing against 1 team counties of an average 130,000 people is not an unreasonable solution.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/03/2013 13:07:13    1341228

The Master

Seriously man, why won't you explain yourself? You've been asked to time and time again but refuse to for some reason.

Explain where exactly East Dublin is? You can give us another glib answer if you like but that will just further highlight your ignorance of Dublin.

Your while argument for the split is based on fantasy! Why won't you address that point?

For example tell us how many Hurling All-Ireland titles so you expect Dublin to win in the next 10 years at senior level? How many Senior Football titles do you predict Dublin will win?

You tell us that you've seen the future and know that Dublin at going to dominate the entire GAA, expand on that. How many Ladies Football titles do you expect? What about Camogie?

I've tried and tried to discuss this issue with you but it is very difficult to do so when you refuse to either explain yourself adequately or outline ANY evidence to suggest this needs to happen.

Thus far you have offered NO evidence that your fantasy will ever come true.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 02/03/2013 13:21:58    1341232

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6039

1341208 Ah for gods sake seany, I picked that number off the top of my head going off the o'rourke article for the sake of an example. You cant throw out the whole thing because of the number. The bottom line is dublin have twice as many as the next biggest county, antrim. That is a difference of 600,000+ people When you consider that the average county only has a total of around 130,000 people, it is obvious that there is a massive imbalance there. I am simply trying to address this imbalance. So instead of trying to find fault, maybe you could come up with a system yourself?

Its not up to me to find a system as i don't think success and population and positively correlated. And not only do i not think it, the statistical facts suggest it also. The two powerhouses and most successful counties in the organisation have relatively small populations. Also as your whole argument is based on numbers if what your saying does not make sense then yes, i can logically 'throw the whole thing' out the window. You problem is that while you advocate Dublin to be split up, you do not advocate the exact same for Cork and Antrim given that apart from Dublin that also have vastly superior populations than their competitors.

With respect, your argument consists of double-standards are is in part hyprocritical.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 02/03/2013 13:48:09    1341239

You see what happens when you "echo" someone elses ill thought out campaigns...

Thats the problem with "hear / say"

Your lack of knowledge about Dublin GAA is blatantly obvious and your idea of fairness is not in fact well.... fair.

I stated earlier that your lack of knowledge on the topic was such that you werent in a position to debate the topic

Thats been proven by Mes and Seany and a few others actually. I warned you... I saw the fault with your argument straight off.

I'd suggest you take some time to understand the issue better before making demands based on such an ill thought out and in fact quite a poor contribution from O'Rourke.

But I will say this to you... if we do go onto win the next 10 AI's at all levels in both codes - then yes we may have to sit down and discuss this issue.

Until then all this is absolutely pointless.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 02/03/2013 15:06:05    1341261

Beelzedub
County: Dublin
Posts: 371

1341261

But I will say this to you... if we do go onto win the next 10 AI's at all levels in both codes - then yes we may have to sit down and discuss this issue.

Until then all this is absolutely pointless.

I actually disagree with your last point Jimbo in terms of what it implies. We both know, as does everybody else that Dublin will not win the next 10 AI's in both codes, but i'll take domination in terms of 3-5 of the next 10 football AI's as a reference as it is more realistic. Even in winning such titles nothing regarding population has been proved. Population has meant nothing to Dublin throughout the history of the modern GAA and nothing to date suggests that is about to change.

Should such an eventuality occur, the issue would be is what makes Dublin players better than others? IMO, i think we've dismissed the population idea due to the fact that there has never been a precedent for it anywhere in the organisation. The argument is also devoid of any facts, and is construed on mere hypothesis where no links are proven between success and demographics.

If one held such a view they must be sure to include and be comfortable dismissing the role of ALL of the following; underage structures and success, conditioning, coaching, club development, traditions in county family and club, management levels, preparation and values.

If Dublin do go onto win a few AI's in the short term, and its a big if should they; i would expect as a matter of common courtesy that most Dubs i know have extended to other successful counties, that they considered whether their own houses are in order before simply anchoring themselves on some rhetoric that has been splashed around the tabloids about the importance of numbers. If Dublin do well we will have earned it just like the teams that have already achieved success.

Anyway, i'm off to the game. Up the Dubs!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 02/03/2013 16:04:09    1341280

the master

ok so you slit dublin gaa in 3 and they are average teams so you will be happy,but what happens if antrim or cork then get their teams winning at underage will you look to do the same there?
what do you feel about kilkenny dominating hurling should they split in two?

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 02/03/2013 16:11:51    1341283

seany16
County: Dublin
Posts: 819

What can I say... my last point was a tongue in cheek swipe at the silliness of it all

But in saying that

It was worth my while because that was an excellent response to my rather silly point.

Well said.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 02/03/2013 16:35:28    1341289

yep,
its a nice little side show to deflect attention from the shortcomings of the other county boards,

when carlow chairman was going on about difference in population, why was he not asked about them having no u21 manager and lads not back training before christmas. their own fans were getting worried about DUB match that was coming up.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 02/03/2013 16:57:17    1341294

MesAmis, your reference to me being glib, in light of your attitude on this entire thread, is laughable. Particularly when you continually ask the question 'where is east dublin?' Where is the east of anything mesamis? The fact that I already stated the split could be done with regard to population eliminates the point you seem to think you have. The reality is you are trying to hide behind the details to avoid the broader issue. You seem to think that the colloquialisms that exist within dublin as regards the 'northside' and 'southside' means that there is no east dublin, but how can there not be an east side of dublin? Can you explain that please? Consideringthat by definition there is an east of everything, your explanation should make for interesting reading.
The real overriding question is this, do you think one team should have twice as many to choose from than the next highest team? Now of course you can and will wheel out the leitrim example, but that ignores, on purpose in my opinion, the difference in scale of the examples. The reality is no team should have 1.27 million, when the mean for everyone else is 130,000. The gulf is just too big. I mean when you cut away all the waffle, which you seem intent on dwelling on, the reality is that one county has 10 times the mean of everyone else, and that just isnt right.
The fact that you time and again, refuse to assume for arguments sake that a split can be done fairly, indicates to me that your intention isnt to debate the argument, but to nullify it. I mean the line you are taking is 'set out exactly the split or we cant debate the issue'. Glib you say?


hill16no1man
ok so you slit dublin gaa in 3 and they are average teams so you will be happy,but what happens if antrim or cork then get their teams winning at underage will you look to do the same there?
what do you feel about kilkenny dominating hurling should they split in two?

Well hill16no1man, as least you are trying to address what is a genuine point, in a genuine manner. On the point of antrim or cork, if thier populations were approaching 10 times the mean, and they showed signs of being being capable of sustaining 2 teams then I would be in favour of splitting them. Similarly if there was a population boom in my own county and we showed the signs that dublin are now, then I would support a split. I mean if it was split in 2, both dublin teams would still have a higher population than everyone else. That just shows the size of the difference that is there at present. Imagine how that will develop in the next 20-30 even 50 years.
As regards kilkenny, no they should not be split, I have made that point earlier in the thread.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/03/2013 15:02:34    1342483