For those in favour of the split, and considering your main point is in relation to fairness of numbers, what base line population do you suggest be used?

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 01/03/2013 15:25:49    1340933

The Master

I'd be perfectly happy to discuss this IF you can explain how your NSEW split works. It's my belief that it can't be done.

It's very difficult to discuss something if you don't explain to us what it is.

No one has ever described themselves or where they're from as being East Dublin.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 01/03/2013 15:36:23    1340939

Regarding rural players "taking the place of a young dubliner"

This is in fact of benefit to both the Dublin team and the club team - the club team has the better player playing, and the county has its own top players (5/6 avg. from each club in contention of a call-up at some point) playing with/against better players, at a higher standard, etc. .

So yes, that young (or indeed older) player is missing out, but will the club or county board do anything to prevent this if it means lessening their chances of success? or course not.

as I stated on the andy mallon thread, the sense of pride in one's club is seriously lacking in Dublin GAA

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 01/03/2013 15:41:56    1340944

Well bennybunny, if kilkenny had 6 times as many people as their nearest competitor then I would suggest they should be split up also. The reality is if every county had the same amount of players, and dublin produced 30 top class footballers, while the rest of us only managed 9-10, then that would be purely down to development or just a good batch of players coming through together etc. I would have no issue with that. The reality is that isnt the case. Now of course we arent going to get everyone exactly the same, but at the same time, one team shouldnt have 6 times the potential as the next team up. That is just asking for trouble.

Also, you appear to dismiss o'rourke's opinion because you say he is bitter. But you also happen to be dismissing his totally logical argument. Whether you think he is bitter or not doesnt change the fact that what he is saying is 100% factually accurate.

There is a bigger issue here. People are dismissing the notion on the fact that dublin havent really been that successful. But surely fairness shouldnt be dependant on whether a team can take advantage of something or not. Again I say, dublin have the numbers at present to field at least 2 strong intercounty teams, they could do that in the morning. And with a bit of development they would easily field 4. Wouldnt that be actually developing the game? Getting more people interested? We need to look past the my county your county thing here. To get onto an underage club team in dublin must be like getting into an underage county development squad in other counties. Has it not occured to people that this could be part of the reason why kids look to other sports in dublin?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 16:02:27    1340963

MesAmis

The Master
I'd be perfectly happy to discuss this IF you can explain how your NSEW split works. It's my belief that it can't be done.
It's very difficult to discuss something if you don't explain to us what it is.
No one has ever described themselves or where they're from as being East Dublin.

I have already explained how it could be worked. You split the county based on numbers and group them as much as possible on NSEW for logistical purposes. It is not an exact science, nor does it have to be. The outcome of 4 even teams is the important part. Do you not understand this? Or even better, do you have another suggestion?
The reality is the thread isnt about the exact outline of the split within county dublin. Can we not just say for arguments sake it works and discuss the actual point at hand?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 16:12:59    1340968

Fair points The Master.

What might need to happen (I don't know enough about Dublin) is that maybe more clubs should be set-up in Dublin to cater for an expanding population. Then again that could be said about lots of places. What are things like in Mayo club football ie how many clubs are there is Ballina? In Cork, Mallow is a huge town with one average intermediate hurling club. Newtownshandrum, Ballyhea, Milford etc are all nearby and would beat Mallow out the gate 9 times out of 10 despite Mallow starting with a population of 20 times + than what they have. Midleton, which is another big town, on the other hand are actually doing very well. Our county senior champions this year Sarsfields pick from a massive population whilst our senior football champions Castlehaven pick from almost nothing.

Colm O Rourke did state the facts. You are right there. I do not disagree. My problem with Colm O Rourke's facts is that he did not state all the facts. He chose one narrow set of data and ignored anything that might contradict them. Why did he do that? I don't know. I retract the statement about him being bitter and just pose the question as is.

I don't have an agenda and I am most certainly not an apologist for, or friend, of the Dubs (in GAA terms), I just think that talking about splitting Dublin on population is a dangerous, and unnecessary, road to go down.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/03/2013 16:24:09    1340976

The Master, perhaps you could answer the question i posed. Suiting your argument what baseline population should be used to divide Dublin?

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 01/03/2013 16:52:26    1340997

The Master

You haven't explained how it would work. You've given us a loose NSEW split with absolutely no expanation at all.

In order for there to be a discussion you must explain what you want us to discuss, thus far you've failed to do so.

Where are your new boundaries? Where is this East Dublin you speak of?

Why are we being split? Are all counties who've won 1 senior and one minor All-Ireland in the last decade to be split also? Do all counties with a certain player pop get split too?

Explaining what you want us to discuss would be nice.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 01/03/2013 16:56:34    1341001

The Master

You haven't explained how it would work. You've given us a loose NSEW split with absolutely no expanation at all.

In order for there to be a discussion you must explain what you want us to discuss, thus far you've failed to do so.

Where are your new boundaries? Where is this East Dublin you speak of?

Why are we being split? Are all counties who've won 1 senior and one minor All-Ireland in the last decade to be split also? Do all counties with a certain player pop get split too?

Explaining what you want us to discuss would be nice.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 01/03/2013 16:56:49    1341003

Yes more clubs is what is needed in dublin, no question bennybunny. But the fact is there isnt the room on the calender for all these teams to compete in the one league and championship. In mayo there are some big town based teams in comparison to some of their opponents. Castlebar at present are probably the best example. However, none of them are at the point where they are so big they are too big because frankly none of the towns in mayo are of that size. Then you would have the likes of crossmolina, whose pick would actually be quite small, winning an AI club, which if anything indicates what can be done with small numbers and thus splitting up dublin would not be the automatic death sentence that some seem to fear it would be.


Im not with you on the colm o'rourke part, what did he leave out? Am I missing something here?


I don't have an agenda and I am most certainly not an apologist for, or friend, of the Dubs (in GAA terms), I just think that talking about splitting Dublin on population is a dangerous, and unnecessary, road to go down.

Indeed neither am I tbh with you. The dubs dont put me up or down. We usually beat them anyway so I have no reason to have a pick on them. It is just a question of making things as even as we can. I agree that splitting dublin is dangerous and could take a bit of getting used to, but it is even moreso to ignore it. People seem to think that leaving things the way they are is the answer, but in truth, things are changing no matter what we do. The gap is getting more noticeable, at underage level it is more of a chasm, so really if we want to keep things even then not doing anything is the wrong way to go about it.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 17:15:00    1341016

I think we all know that splitting Dublin is never going to happen & that most GAA people round Ireland wouldn't want it to.
Even after five years of economic toughness three of the top teams in Ireland, are on the western seaboard. Success has far more to do with organising and making the most of the resources you have rather than having lots of players available.
Yes I agree that Dublin will be stronger in years to come but that success will have more to do with the hard work they are putting in than anything else & should be an example to everyone else.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 01/03/2013 17:26:16    1341022

seany16, and indeed mesamis, your attitude seems to be if I dont have the exact maps, list of clubs and player names for each area at this very minute then you are refusing to debate any aspect and rejecting it out of hand. That is ridiculously unreasonable. I have already given you a guide seany16, since the next most populated county is around 200000, and factoring in that there is a high number in dublin who dont partake, then you could split it in 4 to around 317000, which is still 1.5 times higher than anyone else.
mesamis surely you dont need me to point out that east dublin is the east side of the county. The fact that the term isnt really used is neither here nor there.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 17:26:35    1341023

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 5394

The Master

Where are your new boundaries? Where is this East Dublin you speak of?

Bull Island / Dollymount Strand and Howth.

A major footballing heavyweight, I doubt it...

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 01/03/2013 17:34:06    1341026

muckross, i would say it is an inevitability that dublin will be split. Either that or a measure with a similar outcome. It is only a question of when. Furthermore I would say that when it happens the dubs will realise that they should have done it years ago.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 17:50:08    1341034

The Master

How are we to discuss something you can't explain?

Any answers to my other queries? Why not answer them? I thought you wanted to discuss this.

Why would people aspire to play for your East Dublin concotion you've created, but crucially failed to explain?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 01/03/2013 18:07:19    1341044

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6032

1341034
muckross, i would say it is an inevitability that dublin will be split. Either that or a measure with a similar outcome. It is only a question of when. Furthermore I would say that when it happens the dubs will realise that they should have done it years ago.

There is nothing inevitable about it. Nothing in Dublin's track record at senior or underage warrants it & until I see unending dominance I will be opposed to it.
The Dublin brand is very strong & it's something Dubs from all corners of the county buy into. To do away with that in favour of some mongrel that will have nobody's alleigance will not happen in my lifetime or yours, certainly not at senior level anyway.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 01/03/2013 18:28:59    1341055

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6032

1341023 seany16, and indeed mesamis, your attitude seems to be if I dont have the exact maps, list of clubs and player names for each area at this very minute then you are refusing to debate any aspect and rejecting it out of hand. That is ridiculously unreasonable. I have already given you a guide seany16, since the next most populated county is around 200000, and factoring in that there is a high number in dublin who dont partake, then you could split it in 4 to around 317000, which is still 1.5 times higher than anyone else.
mesamis surely you dont need me to point out that east dublin is the east side of the county. The fact that the term isnt really used is neither here nor there.

I never asked for maps and havn't refuse to answer anything, if you have a question for me ill answer it. I simply asked you to answer my question. So your baseline of fairness is 317,000. I've a few observations to make regarding your reasoning. Firstly, what difference will 317,000 make to counties like Leitrim, Longford, Carlow, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Sligo, Cavan, Offaly and indeed Kilkenny etc etc etc who all have populations under 100,000 and indeed many have populations under 30,000. Where is the logic in terms of fairness regarding that, as the divisions would still be over 10 times the population? How is that fair?

Also taking 317,000 as a base line you are required to divide Antrim in two as it has over 600,000 people. You will have to whilst considering any error in your estimate, and all by your logic of fairness, divide Cork in two with a populations of over 520,000. Down and Derry are not far away either. If this is fair, then these counties too have an unfair advantage in terms of population. Or you could do the opposite and amalgamate counties to reach your baseline of 317,000?

Unfortunately The Master, i can fore-see many problems with your argument.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 01/03/2013 18:29:29    1341058

MesAmis
How are we to discuss something you can't explain?

What am I to do when you struggle to comprehend a simple explanation? 4 teams, split up by population, sticking to, as much as possible the geography of the county. I mean really, if you cannot fathom that then there isnt much more that can be done for you.


Any answers to my other queries? Why not answer them? I thought you wanted to discuss this.

What other queries? The one about an all ireland? I thought it was obvious that the criteria is a huge gulf in population. As I said, if kilkenny or anyone else for that matter, had 6 times as many people as even the second most populated team, then I would say they should be split also. Is that simple enough for you?


Why would people aspire to play for your East Dublin concotion you've created, but crucially failed to explain?

Well the reality is that is an issue for dublin gaa to sort out. The issue of fairness of competition across the board takes precedence over such issues I am sure you will agree. I am sure this would be easily sorted out. Look at kerry gaa for example, where their NSEW teams are made up of multiple clubs joined together to compete at senior level.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 18:44:30    1341067

MuckrossHead, why do you have to wait until the advantage has had an adverse affects on the sport before you would act? I agree that this is probably what will have to happen, but in truth we shouldnt be waiting that long. If something isnt fair then it isnt fair, regardless of whether it has happened to affect competition or not up to that point.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 18:49:35    1341070

Again seany I point out, I am merely going off the figures o'rourke provided. Your 'baseline' issues can be sorted out in one fell swoop; increase it to suitable level. Clearly I am just trying to use figures that make things fair. So for arguments sake, we will just say we will split dublin into parts that bring them in line with everyone else. Do you not think this is fair?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 18:57:06    1341076