TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6006

1340539
witnof, it is no coincidence that the usa and china get so many medals at the olympics. The same applies here.

Very true.

Must be the same reason why the USA and China win the FIFA World Cup all the time...........

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 28/02/2013 18:57:00    1340543

MesAmis, the very fact that population is a contributing factor to their success in any discipline proves my point.

What I dont get, from reading through witnof's post, is that many dubs seem to want credit for using the resources that the rest of us would crawl over hot coals to get hold of. E.g. talking about getting 6 year olds out playing. Try doing it down the country, where you will have a fraction of the funds and bodies available!

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/02/2013 19:10:33    1340550

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6007

1340550
MesAmis, the very fact that population is a contributing factor to their success in any discipline proves my point.

What I dont get, from reading through witnof's post, is that many dubs seem to want credit for using the resources that the rest of us would crawl over hot coals to get hold of. E.g. talking about getting 6 year olds out playing. Try doing it down the country, where you will have a fraction of the funds and bodies available!

Fraction of the funds, fraction of the bodies and yous have to train the same number of kids.............how do yous do it?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 28/02/2013 19:19:54    1340554

No not the same number of kids. But then that is just economies of scale. The fact is other counties are doing similar things, and dont have the funds etc you have at your disposal. Even with the higher numbers in dublin I still say that there are more resources available per child than most places down the country. So I dont see how dublin posters can be saying they are putting so much time as if nobody else is doing it. Give us the chance to do that and we will take your arm off...
Also, why not drop the sarky bit and debate the subject?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/02/2013 19:33:03    1340562

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6010

1340562 No not the same number of kids. But then that is just economies of scale. The fact is other counties are doing similar things, and dont have the funds etc you have at your disposal. Even with the higher numbers in dublin I still say that there are more resources available per child than most places down the country. So I dont see how dublin posters can be saying they are putting so much time as if nobody else is doing it. Give us the chance to do that and we will take your arm off...
Also, why not drop the sarky bit and debate the subject?

Dublin u21s beating carlow by a cricket score has sparked off a lot of this about Dublins resourses, Carlow before christmas didnt even bother to get in a manager , their players werent back training, they didnt put in any effort there own fans were giving out, why was there not a post about this.
ALSO the master why is this topic raising its head now , Is it because our minor team won an allireland last year for the first time since 1984,

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 28/02/2013 21:24:41    1340617

AthCliath, that isnt true, this argument was going on here the week before the carlow game.
Look you can try to throw up as many exceptions to the rule as you like. It doesnt change the fact that 1.3 million people in one county, and 37,000 in another is a big advantage to have. That is the bottom line.

Out of interest, if dublin was split in 4 equal parts, which do people think would be the best?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 10:29:26    1340698

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6012

1340698
AthCliath, that isnt true, this argument was going on here the week before the carlow game.
Look you can try to throw up as many exceptions to the rule as you like. It doesnt change the fact that 1.3 million people in one county, and 37,000 in another is a big advantage to have. That is the bottom line.

Out of interest, if dublin was split in 4 equal parts, which do people think would be the best?

So now we have to be split into four parts?

Out of interest how would you split us into four?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 01/03/2013 10:42:40    1340707

North, South, East, West MesAmis?
That would give you 317500 people each. Which is still almost double the next biggest population...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 11:18:55    1340730

themaster

The maths is clear to see on the other thread - we have roughly 2000 +/- odd players who may be available

That's barely 1/10 of a percent of the total population of Dublin.

It's not very intelligent on your part to keep on banging on about 1.27 million

It's simply not the case.

You were talking about fairness in the GAA

Well splitting Dublin in 4 is not fair as some parts of Dublin have more clubs than others

Thus your own logic will apply about population advantages. Also parts of Dublin are also far more populated than others

So how you cant simply and rather naively apply 300,000+ to each 1/4 :) it's slightly idiotic in fairness.

Do you suggest people have to move to even out each 1/4? :) That's the only fair way - and you're an advocate for fairness. Right?

You dont know much about Dublin themaster. That's incredibly obvious from your rather laughable and simple like demograhics.

Listen you want Dublin split - you want Dublins revenue - you want, you want, you want...

"You cant always get what you want but if you try sometimes, you might just find... that you get what you need"

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 01/03/2013 11:58:10    1340760

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6015

1340730
North, South, East, West MesAmis?
That would give you 317500 people each. Which is still almost double the next biggest population...

And what clubs would fall into your "East" Dublin category. They could be a bit thin on the ground....................317500 people in "East" Dublin.............hmmmm

I'm guessing that Drumcondra is the only place you've ever been to in Dublin.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 01/03/2013 12:18:08    1340774

I would expect a lareg increase in teh number of transfers in the UK in March and April now teams are back training and they will now be getting planners transferred. Again though its not the fault of teams in UK that players are transferring but as mentioned previously those in Lenister House.

Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 01/03/2013 12:38:45    1340786

The maths is clear to see on the other thread - we have roughly 2000 +/- odd players who may be available

That is simply not true though. Those club squads of players are refined down from a big pool of players as they are. So it is 25, selected from maybe 200, as opposed to clubs down the country who have 25, selected from maybe 35. Are you telling me that the 35 lads from the country team are of the same quality as the as the 200 lads from the city? Are we super-human down the country or something? It isnt possible. You are conveniently forgetting about 175 footballers there. In all honesty, the group of 200 should probably be able to field 3 or 4 starting 15s that would beat the best selection from the 35 lads from the country club.
What you dont seem to realise is if it was spread out more, you would get more young lads coming through in dublin. All you have to do is look at how that works in counties with smaller populations. You see guys develop when given a chance to play. There is no doubt in my mind that if dublin was split, and a bit of work was put in, there would be 2 dublin teams in a leinster final very soon, with the winner going on to compete with the best in the country. In truth dublin probably need to split up their clubs a bit more. A club shouldnt have more than 50 senior players, maybe some kind of rostering system could be implemented. I actually believe you would see dublin club gaa fourish from doing so.

Also, as regards splitting up the county. Surely it could be done on a numbers basis, with a general idea of NSEW? This notion of 'if it doesnt match perfectly we throw out the whole thing' is nonsense.

You are very quick to shoot down every suggested resolution, citing various issues which in all honesty are not relevant to the issue of fairness but more issues within dublin gaa. For someone to say 'well we cant get the interest' is really not a valid reason. Every county faces issues with attracting players dont they? That is just part and parcel of the GAA. E.G. kilkenny footballers dont get different treatment because they dont have the interest do they? They are not given extra players to make them competitive.
What would your resolution be? Just let the gap get wider so your own county can win a few AIs down the line? Surely there is a bigger picture here?


MesAmis, I am guessing you are using this sarcasm shtick because you dont want to discuss the point. Obviously you can split the county up in a fair manner. You can take that as read, and so stop going on about it.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 12:49:44    1340793

Another barmy suggestion from a guy that has no idea about Dublin GAA and obviously the geographical demograpics of the sport and population in Dublin

There's no point debating the issue with you.

Your lack of knowledge on the topic makes that impossible, because your views are so head stong based on on said complete lack of knowledge.

I've tried to educate you above. You can only lead a beef burger to water

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 01/03/2013 13:08:49    1340812

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6017


MesAmis, I am guessing you are using this sarcasm shtick because you dont want to discuss the point. Obviously you can split the county up in a fair manner. You can take that as read, and so stop going on about it.

Your suggestion of how to split the county wouldn't work and would be unfair (and you wouldn't want that would you?). Simple as. No need to get all defensive.

I actually don't think you can split the county four ways in a fair manner and retain any type of sense of identity.

If you can tell us how you'd split the county in four fairly then I'd be quite willing to discuss your point. You've yet to and your first suggestion was quite a poor one hence my original reply, thought you'd do better than that if I'm honest.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 01/03/2013 13:15:37    1340823

Beelzedub, I am only echoing the sentiment of colm o'rourke, probably the most respected gaa pundit in the country. How can I be that far off the mark when arguably the top guy on gaa is saying the same thing? Also, explain why it would be so difficult. Split the county based on NSEW, with ths size of each area being reliant on population. It couldnt be any fairer.
All yourself and mesamis have done is tried to find any small issue wth the specifics of my suggestion so you dont have to acknowledge the bigger picture. A split based on population and geographic area is as fair as you can get. If that doesnt work then the formula can be fine-tuned. Simple. So you can take it as read that the teams are even.
Also, the idea of identity pales in comparison to the issue of fairness.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 14:10:37    1340865

Dublin have already split in hurling. You now have Fingal and Dublin? Should they be split further? Why don't people talk about splitting Cork at the moment? There are more players/more clubs and more teams in Cork in hurling and football than anywhere else. Nobody is talking about splitting Cork because, despite our 'advantage' in playing numbers we are still losing to every other county in Munster (besides Kerry) in underage hurling and while we are doing well in Munster under 21 football (and indeed nationally), our minor teams have been average enough.

If people want to make a fuss about population (actual) then they should realize that of all the teams that enter the McCarthy Cup only Laois and Offaly have a smaller population than the team that has been dominating for the last 10-12 years. Maybe Colm O Rourke (the most respected the GAA pundit that he is???!!) should write an article on splitting Kilkenny because they are so good!

Also respected journalists like Colm O Rourke should also do some research before they write such utter guff. If they did they would see that according to the last census (published late 2012) that Dublin though having the biggest population had the smallest population change of all the counties in Leinster. This would suggest that actually the population 'advantage' Dublin has was much bigger years ago.

The timing of such an article a few months after Dublin had a successful year underage just smacks of bitterness.

Anyway, actuall population is irrelevant, GAA population is what counts and even then it does not always work in your favour. Whether you pick from 200 clubs or 20, you can only put 15 on a field at any one time. The probability of a very talented football being found among 20 clubs is also greater than being found in 200.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/03/2013 14:52:42    1340905

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6021

1340865
Beelzedub, I am only echoing the sentiment of colm o'rourke, probably the most respected gaa pundit in the country. How can I be that far off the mark when arguably the top guy on gaa is saying the same thing? Also, explain why it would be so difficult. Split the county based on NSEW, with ths size of each area being reliant on population. It couldnt be any fairer.
All yourself and mesamis have done is tried to find any small issue wth the specifics of my suggestion so you dont have to acknowledge the bigger picture. A split based on population and geographic area is as fair as you can get. If that doesnt work then the formula can be fine-tuned. Simple. So you can take it as read that the teams are even.
Also, the idea of identity pales in comparison to the issue of fairness.

Explain how you will split the county please? Gonna need a little bit more than NSEW too.

Your suggestion lacks any specifics. That's its problem.

Back up your suggestion and maybe people might take it a little bit more seriously.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 01/03/2013 14:57:56    1340909

MesAmis, I have already stated that A) I would loosely base the split on NSEW, with the specifics dependant on the numbers available in each area. i.e. the east could be a bit bigger to allow for the lower population density etc.
And B) for the sake of argument, to take the split as read. Assume that the split is fair and continue on with the point. Yes you still refuse to discuss anything else.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/03/2013 15:10:44    1340918

I propose a limit on the amount of non Dublin players that are allowed to play for any Dublin club! The limit in my opinion should be between 3-5 and no starting 15 should have any more than 3 non Dublin players. Dublin clubs may benefit in the short term but in the long term its not sustainable in my view!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 01/03/2013 15:11:10    1340919

bennybunny well said man

People talk about the big picture, here's a picture for you; Dublin Gaa people are miniature in comparison to other sports in the city FACT. If we have so much talent why are there so many players from other counties able to walk on to Dublin clubs starting 15s !?

If the split did happen the ramifications for the Gaa is massive just think of the amount of people in Dublin who would turn their back on the Gaa forever. People like Colm O'Rourke and Martin Mc Hugh who campaign for such laughable suggestions that stink of spite & bitterness should remember the work Heffo did with regard to promoting Gaa in the city and if you think we will let people like Colm O'Rourke dismantle his legacy then think again.

Bluewave (Dublin) - Posts: 552 - 01/03/2013 15:19:18    1340925