Why do people insist on using arguments like "He has two all Ireland's in his back pocket" in an attempt to settle a dispute about the merits of a player? Winning all Ireland's is mostly about an accident of birth, and being born at the right time in that area.

Take a look at Ollie Collins from Lavey in Derry. Collins hurled throughout the 1990s for Derry. Many posters will not have heard of him. Most posters will have heard of the Clare team of the same decade. Yet had Collins been born in Clare he would have been the star forward on this team. Only Jamsie O'Connor comes close to Collins as a forward on that Clare team. This team is much lauded, deservedly so, but Collins is forgotten.

Collins had the physique and arrogance, as well as the skill, to make it with any county in Ireland. He was just unfortunate enough to be born in Derry. Collins was certainly as good at his chosen sport as say Sean Cavanagh is at his, yet Cavanagh will be rightly lauded for years, Collins forgotten.

Or a tale of two Peters, Lambert and Canavan. Most will have heard of Canavan, but many will not have heard of Lambert.

Yet had Canavan been born in Tipp, and Lambert in Tyrone, when we talk about "Peter the Great" in all liklehood it is Lambert that would be the "great". Two top players, one lauded, the other mostly forgotten.

Now I suspect that those who harp on about medals are younger, or recent converts to the sport. My fear is that the GAA will son come to reflect big time soccer where everything is about winning where the "show us your medals" brigade reign. Even then it is a daft argument, although soccer players can be transferred.

I would like to think that the GAA can retain the ability where all good players are recognised, and that we do not become obsessed with "winners." That way lies ruin and perhaps professionalism.

I may support the GPA but I do not favour pay for play. All Ireland's, as Liam Griffin pointed out, are won by a combination of parents driving kids to games, past players and enthusiasts running kids teams, teachers giving up time to coach at schools, people washing jerseys, selling ballot tickets, building changing rooms and club houses for free, and players. We can't pay all of these deserving people, so we should pay none.

I suppose what I am really trying to say is that let us all hope that the GAA can retain that "sporting" identity, where at the end of the day it is a game, not measured in money or titles won, but hopefully in the pleasure that individual players and teams can give us.

And I don't drink.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 02/12/2008 22:19:37    155392

And I don't drink.
patrique , 02/12/2008 at 22:19
_____________________________

You'll never be Jim so, Patrique!

But good points. Declan Browne is another Tipp man who was absolute class but never had a hope of winning Sam - there are hosts of them. I mentioned the other day that lots of ordinary players had Celtic crosses and was pulled up over it. I did not mean to question their commitment, effort or worthiness - they won them fair play to them. The teams I always think of in this context are the master Sean Boylan's Meath teams. Always a classy spine and absolute belief in the cause meant that the sum total was so much better than the individual parts. I am not knocking any of the Meath lads by saying this - its actually a compliment to them. But for example you put a spine up the centre of your team like Fay, McManus and Mc Dermott - add in class forwards like Giles, Dowd, Geraghty and Ollie Murphy and you are gonna take some beating. Two Sams tell the tale - fair play!

JayoCluxton (Dublin) - Posts: 2688 - 02/12/2008 22:51:58    155426

I don't really like posting these porous unhelpfull messages but i have to agree with you patrique, why? Because Meath's Barry Callaghan has 2 all-ireland winners medals......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/12/2008 23:08:08    155449

patrique one of my favourite players was tom prendergast saw him tear dublin apart in tullamore in thr early eights.probably one of the best to never win an all ireland.theres more greats without medals than with them.

tomaoo7 (Dublin) - Posts: 5896 - 02/12/2008 23:25:19    155473

More greats without a medal than with. Truest word you ever said.

3inarow2008 (Kerry) - Posts: 204 - 03/12/2008 09:30:37    155549

great post patrique. for example i believe if mort had have been born in kerry the man would have 4 or 5 medals by now. and similarly if the likes of ronan clarke or oisin mcconville had have been in mayo then we probably would have turned out a worse team. journeymen is all they are.

danjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 137 - 03/12/2008 09:38:00    155557

Its just the luck of the draw, but to be fair Patrique, Canavan was refferred to as 'Peter the Great' even before Tyrone had won in 2003!!!

Tyr08 (Tyrone) - Posts: 435 - 03/12/2008 09:49:13    155580

patrique - while your point is very true if you sit down and think about it the country is full of players who would rank amongst the most gifted players ever born and yet ask them guys to show you their medal collection and they wouldnt have a decent medal between them. You mentioned Ollie Collins - there are plenty of hurlers in the North who had they been born in Kilkenny Cork Tipp or the like they would have won All -Irelands - you have the likes of Brian Pauric and Eamon Devlin form the Dungannon club and you could also mention Brian Mc Intosh in the same breathe, Vinnie Owens from Killyclogher the Quinn brothers from Killyclogher you also have Ollie Mc Shea from Fermanagh - all very talented hurlers and the list could go on and on.

Even break it down further how many great club players ended up with nothing to show for their career simply because of the parish they were born in. The great thing about it was msot of these guys played their entire career with their club while other glory hunters transferred to more successful clubs were the chance of winning a medal was much greater.

I don't know how the GAA is going to prevent this "how many medals have you" mentality from prevailing, in the current climate it is win at all costs - managers arent even given a chance to settle in to jobs and plan ahead long term, if they dont win something in the first 2 years they are gone.

bocerty (Tyrone) - Posts: 539 - 03/12/2008 09:51:34    155581

Danjoe, if Mort had of been born in Kerry he would be the waterboy!!!

Tyr08 (Tyrone) - Posts: 435 - 03/12/2008 09:59:20    155587

The All Ireland is played every year to be won, not to see who is a decent footballer. All players go out to win, not lose and be good. Sport is not about taking place, which is told to kids.
Ireland has always had a facsination with galant losers, in all sports.

Its true that there are great players who have never won an All ireland, and nowhere has this been heard more than in Tyrone. Football is about the team. Not an individual. It is not a travesty of justice if Eugene McKenna or Frank McGuigan Sr never won an All Ireland because 25 men win an All Ireland, not 1 or 2.
Sport is full of hard luck stories, but if any player has 2 medals in his pocket, and played in the matches to win these medals (not sat on the bench and never kicked a ball), then that should settle most arguments.

clearvision (Tyrone) - Posts: 138 - 03/12/2008 10:11:07    155599

Tyr08
County: Tyrone
Posts: 74

155587 Danjoe, if Mort had of been born in Kerry he would be the waterboy!!!

No. He would drop the bottle. Only joking.He would be a great Maor Uisce.

Real Kerry Fan (None) - Posts: 2957 - 03/12/2008 10:13:30    155604

Good post Patrique. Was just saying something similar to one of the fellas in our club after they lost a final recently. Most players probably never even get to a junior championship final never mind win one and of all the players who put on a jersey during the year most of them are on the losing side most of the time. Same as with county players and yet people keep playing because at the end of the day it is about a lot more than winning medals or even winning matches. And as you say, any move away from the ethos of the association towards separating 'elite' players and counties from the rest would be a disaster.

Finally on the subject of players who might have made it big had they been with another county I give you Joe Towell who played for Dublin hurlers in the 1970s and early 80s. One of the deadliest forwards and goal getters I have ever seen and was right up there with Doran and Keher and Cummins in scoring averages in the mid 70s. Never won anything not even a Dublin county championship with Eoghan Ruadh but a legend among those who know their hurling.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 03/12/2008 10:15:38    155608

Tyr08
County: Tyrone
Posts: 74

Danjoe, if Mort had of been born in Kerry he would be the waterboy!!!

possibly so. and if canavan was born in kerry as well then he would be cleaning morts boots.

danjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 137 - 03/12/2008 10:15:39    155609

Patrique, absolutely correct. Do you think Donaghy would have made the Tyrone squad if his family hadn't moved to Kerry? I would say def.

Gortnagarn (UK) - Posts: 112 - 03/12/2008 12:49:37    155774

If Mort had of been from kerry we would never have heard of him

samin10 (Armagh) - Posts: 2434 - 03/12/2008 14:21:58    155847

Clearvision, your post has totally confused me.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 03/12/2008 17:52:30    156159

completely agree with patrique. a player should be recognised for what he done on the field not for the failures of poorer players around him costing him titles! the likes of longfords dessie barry, tipps declan browne and our own dermot earley would have shone in any other county!

this is a bit off point but i also think alot of "just good" players in strong counties get hidden aswell, like kerrys declan quill, i guarantee he would be a star forward for ros if he was born here

kilglasskrazy (Roscommon) - Posts: 80 - 03/12/2008 19:14:03    156255

Great post Patrique, very true.

men_of_49 (Meath) - Posts: 2024 - 03/12/2008 19:14:06    156256

Yeah good post Patrique, and if you keep the debate simple then the answer is simple.
2 club or county players (doesn't matter which) standing side by side, Is the one with the medal CLEARLY the best, I think anyone who answers yes right away, is on the wrong website,
Now i'm not gonna even start to give examples would take far too long, Instead i'll make 2 points.

1. As everybody knows Tyrone are a mighty mean machine at the minute, and everybody involved has plenty of medals,
One of their greatest supporters sat with me in a debate recently, the Question was very simple, Name Tyrone's best 15 players ever, I can tell you that of the starting team in this years final he had only one player on the best Tyrone team ever,
no prises for guessing which one, Now if that dosent settel this debate forever, were all wasting our time.

2, I feel Blessed to have watched Tyrone's greatest ever football genius, (not iggy jones) play football, Sadley he's no longer with us RIP, Now of course he played for tyrone, But he couldent even manage 1 senior medal,
But i promise you i would gladly pay 50 pound if it was possible to watch him play 1 more time.
I stood and watched this football genius leave 3 defenders sitting on there backside, and i swear the only thing he moved was his head, TRUE STORY.


Modern way= eat pitsa and go to bed early and youl play for your county.

OR

Dont go to bed at all and score 1-12

again true story

I know which one will keep me talking forever= RIP

clarity (Tyrone) - Posts: 49 - 03/12/2008 20:00:41    156292

Great thread P and some great points on it! Whats seldom is wonderful.

Great stuff too there Clarity - would love to know who the player you refer to is - I don't think its that great man Cormac Mc, is it?

JayoCluxton (Dublin) - Posts: 2688 - 03/12/2008 22:20:29    156419