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Replying To ifindoubt: "So the likes of Kilcar with 5 on the County panel and 2 county minors have to play without their County players from May to August.Or Gweedore with about 5 players basically playing without there players in the League for the full summer." I would see the solution to that as being the 'Starred' fixtures concept, and being creative as to when certain fixtures between certain clubs are scheduled. At the end of the day, the county championship is the primary goal for all clubs in terms of striving for success. Letting clubs know exactly when Championship is going to be played so everyone can prepare properly and have everyone available is a priority. I never understood this concept of playing a round of fixtures in May, then second round not for a few months, or randomly fixed at short enough notice.
For me, the purpose of the leagues is to give clubs and club players regular football, and that is what everyone wants. There should be designated league weekends from March thru summer, with enough free weekends to allow clubs to re-fix games when both clubs agree it (maybe for weddings, stags, funerals etc.), but there should never be a situation of club players not getting games during summer months because they are missing some county men. Club players could also take holidays etc during this time without too many issues. It doesn't really matter where you finish in a league in any given year - The purpose is to provide games. Would need to be creative if a team adversely affected by missing county men were near relegation, but again... starred fixtures etc can help mitigate that.. along with playoffs.... need to be creative around that.
himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 28/02/2017 12:18:32
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Replying To uibhfhaili1986: "Why should the players decide everything in the GAA.
Their job is to play.
They were just throwing their toys out of the pram because their idea wasn't put forward for consideration, which was a really childish stance.This proposal is a step along the road to something even better the players should remember that.
I'm all for them having a say but it doesn't mean that just because they want something it should be approved.They first and foremost only care about themselves." If the GAA is not about looking after the players and providing healthy sport for them.
Then what is it for?
Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 28/02/2017 12:21:06
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Replying To Ashrules: "If the GAA is not about looking after the players and providing healthy sport for them.
Then what is it for?" What in the name of god has that got to do with the point i made.
The players job is to play not to be administrators.
The GPA waited to long to take any stance on this issue which was 100% their own fault.
uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 28/02/2017 12:59:26
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Replying To himachechy: "I would see the solution to that as being the 'Starred' fixtures concept, and being creative as to when certain fixtures between certain clubs are scheduled. At the end of the day, the county championship is the primary goal for all clubs in terms of striving for success. Letting clubs know exactly when Championship is going to be played so everyone can prepare properly and have everyone available is a priority. I never understood this concept of playing a round of fixtures in May, then second round not for a few months, or randomly fixed at short enough notice.
For me, the purpose of the leagues is to give clubs and club players regular football, and that is what everyone wants. There should be designated league weekends from March thru summer, with enough free weekends to allow clubs to re-fix games when both clubs agree it (maybe for weddings, stags, funerals etc.), but there should never be a situation of club players not getting games during summer months because they are missing some county men. Club players could also take holidays etc during this time without too many issues. It doesn't really matter where you finish in a league in any given year - The purpose is to provide games. Would need to be creative if a team adversely affected by missing county men were near relegation, but again... starred fixtures etc can help mitigate that.. along with playoffs.... need to be creative around that." It's just as well you don't live in England and follow a Premier League Team. Up and down the lenght and breadth of the country 19 or more times a year and tickets would be just a little more expensive. You'd need to hope that your team is not in Europe either!
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 28/02/2017 15:40:12
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Replying To himachechy: "Your first point is a good one - this does not change anything for 'weaker' counties. I would think something should be done to give weaker counties more championship games. I know Carlow and Laoise (I think) have another proposal which addresses that... maybe that could be looked at in conjunction with this 'super 8' idea. If the 'super 8' goes well for a few years more likely to get more round robin type formats in place down the road... as ever change is slow.
It is a good point on Dublin getting 2 home games...not very fair...but sure isn't the whole system tilted in favour of Dublin! (moaning culchie blah blah)
Potentially the best thing about this proposal is more games in provincial venues. Summer weekends in Kerry, Donegal. Galway...ehhh Navan etc... would be brilliant." The Dublin in Croke Park issue is a hard one to resolve and in fairness to the Dubs, it's hardly their fault. I believe when it is the ·neutral game" the non-Dublin county will still get a cut of the income so no county is going to turn that down - it'll be mostly Dubs money anyway! Good suggestion in relation to offering another neutral venue. Croke Park is not set in stone and there are a few grounds around the country that can be considered
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 28/02/2017 16:32:54
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Replying To Whammo86: "It does nothing to reduce the Provincial inequality.
The makeup of the last 8 gets determined in the exact same way.
There are a couple of good things in the proposals.
Reducing the number of replays and playing the Provincial championships off more quickly are positive. The group stage part of the proposal could be hit or miss. They'll be seasons when it's a bit dull with little to play for in the last round of fixtures. There'll be years where it could be exciting.
It doesn't do much for weaker counties. These teams will not win anything but it still makes it a more interesting if more teams are competitive. I think this will probably widen the gap between the best and the rest. Not a good thing for the long term health of the game." I agree about provincial inequality but I can assure you that Croke Park have been trying to fix this but it is those weaker counties that have been blocking it as they do not want to play in an All Ireland B Championship for which there was proposal for in the past. Half the counties have no realistic chance of making an All Ireland Final in the next 10 years. Just 7 counties have played in the last 10 All Ireland Finals and 8 in the 10 before that so half might be a bit high. It goes to show that we have already had a "Super 8" for the past 20 years!
For me the sensical way would be to use the league postions from that year. Div 1 and Div 2 teams play in the All Ireland Championship`and Div 3 & 4 play in a B Championship. You'd have to get rid of the Provincials which apartt from Ulster, see very few competitive games. All B winners and maybe the finalists also could be guaranteed a place in the main championship the following year. But all that is just a step to far for the traditionalists.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 28/02/2017 16:45:28
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Replying To Sindar: "I agree about provincial inequality but I can assure you that Croke Park have been trying to fix this but it is those weaker counties that have been blocking it as they do not want to play in an All Ireland B Championship for which there was proposal for in the past. Half the counties have no realistic chance of making an All Ireland Final in the next 10 years. Just 7 counties have played in the last 10 All Ireland Finals and 8 in the 10 before that so half might be a bit high. It goes to show that we have already had a "Super 8" for the past 20 years!
For me the sensical way would be to use the league postions from that year. Div 1 and Div 2 teams play in the All Ireland Championship`and Div 3 & 4 play in a B Championship. You'd have to get rid of the Provincials which apartt from Ulster, see very few competitive games. All B winners and maybe the finalists also could be guaranteed a place in the main championship the following year. But all that is just a step to far for the traditionalists." Cure for inequality -
Prov Final 8 play '2 more two-chance' rds, while all 24 others get '2 Qual Rd 1' matches via 8 groups of 3 (8 last teams eliminated).
This levels the playing field.
Qual KO Rds 2 and 3 then have team quantities of 20 and 12.
6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI Last 8.
Fair, Balanced, Tidy and Neat !
I don't see anybody knocking this (like other ideas I had).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 28/02/2017 17:44:45
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Replying To uibhfhaili1986: "What in the name of god has that got to do with the point i made.
The players job is to play not to be administrators.
The GPA waited to long to take any stance on this issue which was 100% their own fault." What part of it did you not understand
Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 01/03/2017 14:39:38
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just to bring this thread back up to the top as it is really important.
In the proposals.
you could have the following 8 teams in the super-8.
group A
Dublin
Donegal
Cork
Monaghan
Group B
Kerry
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway.
In the first 2 sets of games
Dublin beat Donegal
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands:
Dublin 4
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
the final 2 games are:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Cork have nothing to play for , therefore no incentive to win. yet they are playing against Donegal who must win to keep their hopes alive.
How is that fair against Dublin or Monaghan.
so in the final round
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 18:54:08
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Replying To s goldrick: "just to bring this thread back up to the top as it is really important.
In the proposals.
you could have the following 8 teams in the super-8.
group A
Dublin
Donegal
Cork
Monaghan
Group B
Kerry
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway.
In the first 2 sets of games
Dublin beat Donegal
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands:
Dublin 4
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
the final 2 games are:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Cork have nothing to play for , therefore no incentive to win. yet they are playing against Donegal who must win to keep their hopes alive.
How is that fair against Dublin or Monaghan.
so in the final round" There will definitely be situations where teams out of the AI running are expected to travel the length of the country to fulfill some fixture when all they want to do is go switch off, forget the IC season for a moment and concentrate on their clubs. It's very disrespectful to teams just so HQ can sell some jazzy deal to Sky Sports.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/03/2017 19:11:50
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Replying To s goldrick: "just to bring this thread back up to the top as it is really important.
In the proposals.
you could have the following 8 teams in the super-8.
group A
Dublin
Donegal
Cork
Monaghan
Group B
Kerry
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway.
In the first 2 sets of games
Dublin beat Donegal
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands:
Dublin 4
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
the final 2 games are:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Cork have nothing to play for , therefore no incentive to win. yet they are playing against Donegal who must win to keep their hopes alive.
How is that fair against Dublin or Monaghan.
so in the final round" Oh my god this is difficult to read. This is how league competitions work in general. This is what makes it exciting.
republican (Sligo) - Posts: 326 - 30/03/2017 19:18:13
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Replying To s goldrick: "just to bring this thread back up to the top as it is really important.
In the proposals.
you could have the following 8 teams in the super-8.
group A
Dublin
Donegal
Cork
Monaghan
Group B
Kerry
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway.
In the first 2 sets of games
Dublin beat Donegal
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands:
Dublin 4
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
the final 2 games are:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Cork have nothing to play for , therefore no incentive to win. yet they are playing against Donegal who must win to keep their hopes alive.
How is that fair against Dublin or Monaghan.
so in the final round" Actually Cork do have something to play for in the example you give. if Dublin beat Monaghan and Cork beat Donegal then the table finishes as:
Dublin 6
Cork 2
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
and it's down to score difference to determine who comes second. This is a case where if the team that comes second is a qualifier (and so has lost once already in the provincials) they will have qualified for the All Ireland semi-final having lost three matches.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 30/03/2017 20:07:25
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Replying To s goldrick: "just to bring this thread back up to the top as it is really important.
In the proposals.
you could have the following 8 teams in the super-8.
group A
Dublin
Donegal
Cork
Monaghan
Group B
Kerry
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway.
In the first 2 sets of games
Dublin beat Donegal
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands:
Dublin 4
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
the final 2 games are:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Cork have nothing to play for , therefore no incentive to win. yet they are playing against Donegal who must win to keep their hopes alive.
How is that fair against Dublin or Monaghan.
so in the final round" If Monaghan beat Donegal in your example then the table after two rounds is:
Dublin 4
Monaghan 4
Donegal 0
Cork 0
Then there's a serious problem as the last two games (Dublin V Monaghan and Donegal v Cork) are both dead rubbers. The first one only determines who plays whom in the semi-finals (and could be open to a team deliberately losing in order to avoid a particular team from the other group). The second game is completely pointless and it's hard to see why anyone would bother going to it.
The only way to minimise the chances of this arising is to fix the second round of matches after seeing the results of the first round e.g. in this case Dublin would have to play Monaghan in the second round with Donegal playing Cork.
This scenario is quite likely to arise and will be the downfall of the Super 8. It's a fundamental problem with any round-robin system of more than three teams. It can be less problematic when this system is in place in the earlier rounds of a tiered championship system (as in many county championships) and the bottom team goes into relegation play-offs. Then most games have meaning.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 30/03/2017 20:36:08
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I see what you are saying Ceachtpeile but I don't think that is as serious as my scenario. as 2 teams playing each other have nothing to play for , they are not effecting the integrity of the competition. the 2 other teams who have already qualified are still playing for something. (although I take your point about the possibility of one team trying to lose in order to get an easier draw. Either way , in both of our examples, it shows a flawed system.
Something needs to change before this is implemented or it will become a farce.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 21:56:32
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "Actually Cork do have something to play for in the example you give. if Dublin beat Monaghan and Cork beat Donegal then the table finishes as:
Dublin 6
Cork 2
Donegal 2
Monaghan 2
and it's down to score difference to determine who comes second. This is a case where if the team that comes second is a qualifier (and so has lost once already in the provincials) they will have qualified for the All Ireland semi-final having lost three matches." OK I stand corrected, apologies.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 22:06:29
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "If Monaghan beat Donegal in your example then the table after two rounds is:
Dublin 4
Monaghan 4
Donegal 0
Cork 0
Then there's a serious problem as the last two games (Dublin V Monaghan and Donegal v Cork) are both dead rubbers. The first one only determines who plays whom in the semi-finals (and could be open to a team deliberately losing in order to avoid a particular team from the other group). The second game is completely pointless and it's hard to see why anyone would bother going to it.
The only way to minimise the chances of this arising is to fix the second round of matches after seeing the results of the first round e.g. in this case Dublin would have to play Monaghan in the second round with Donegal playing Cork.
This scenario is quite likely to arise and will be the downfall of the Super 8. It's a fundamental problem with any round-robin system of more than three teams. It can be less problematic when this system is in place in the earlier rounds of a tiered championship system (as in many county championships) and the bottom team goes into relegation play-offs. Then most games have meaning." yes, and it is why the champions league allows the third-placed team in the group to enter the Europa league. There needs to be some incentive for finishing third in the group.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 22:09:23
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Replying To s goldrick: "I see what you are saying Ceachtpeile but I don't think that is as serious as my scenario. as 2 teams playing each other have nothing to play for , they are not effecting the integrity of the competition. the 2 other teams who have already qualified are still playing for something. (although I take your point about the possibility of one team trying to lose in order to get an easier draw. Either way , in both of our examples, it shows a flawed system.
Something needs to change before this is implemented or it will become a farce." Yes it's a flawed system in the sense that all round robin groups have the same problems unless each finishing position has a meaning.
The scenario you're referring to arises if the following is the sequence of results:
Donegal beat Dublin
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands as:
Donegal 4
Dublin 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
with the final 2 games being:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Then Cork have nothing to play for as even if they beat Donegal they cannot overtake both Dublin and Monaghan as one of them has to move to at least 3 points. The use of head-to-head to separate teams compounds the problem as Donegal cannot be knocked off the top of the group so have nothing really to play for either. If score difference were used at least there'd be a chance of either Dublin or Monaghan topping the group.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 30/03/2017 22:42:58
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "Yes it's a flawed system in the sense that all round robin groups have the same problems unless each finishing position has a meaning.
The scenario you're referring to arises if the following is the sequence of results:
Donegal beat Dublin
Dublin beat Cork
Donegal beat Monaghan
Monaghan beat Cork
so the table stands as:
Donegal 4
Dublin 2
Monaghan 2
Cork 0
with the final 2 games being:
Dublin v Monaghan
Donegal v Cork.
Then Cork have nothing to play for as even if they beat Donegal they cannot overtake both Dublin and Monaghan as one of them has to move to at least 3 points. The use of head-to-head to separate teams compounds the problem as Donegal cannot be knocked off the top of the group so have nothing really to play for either. If score difference were used at least there'd be a chance of either Dublin or Monaghan topping the group." yes, that's the scenario I was looking for. Thanks for that.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 22:49:57
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Replying To s goldrick: "yes, and it is why the champions league allows the third-placed team in the group to enter the Europa league. There needs to be some incentive for finishing third in the group." Yes and that's why the GPA in their proposal for the revamp of the championship proposed eight groups of four but with three teams qualifying from each. But then the criticism was why play all those games (six per group) just to eliminate one team. So you can't win! I can understand that criticism but at least there was a reasonable incentive there to win the group and skip one knock-out round so it meant that all games would be meaningful.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 104 - 30/03/2017 23:01:16
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We're stuck with this for 3 seasons now.
There are big flaws presented by having groups in this way.
I think there could be a big improvement made as follows.
12 teams qualify for the Super series.
4 Provincial champions plus 8 qualifiers.
All teams play 3 matches in a 1 table open draw (1 match v a Provincial champion, 2 games v qualifiers)
6 teams qualify from the super series. Teams 1 and 2 into AI semifinals, teams 3-6 into quarter finals.
It's much more difficult for teams to be eliminated after 2 games in this situation.
After week 2 there will be teams on a mix of points, you'd need a very specific set of results to arise for the team in 6th place to be on more than 2 points, so every team would be in the hunt.
Teams would also be going all out to win a bye spot.
The qualifiers could be simplified.
24 non provincial champions into qualifier round 1.
12 winners plus Provincial runners up into final qualifier round. With the 8 winners joining 4 Provincial champions in the Super series.
At most 2 wins are needed to reach the super series making it an achievable goal for most teams. It reduces the Provincial imbalance where 5 Ulster and 7 Leinster teams need to win 4 qualifiers to reach the quarterfinals.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/03/2017 10:23:37
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