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Return of attacking football

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I think attacking football has been dire in recent seasons if not non existent as an approach, especially amount the consistent all Ireland last 8, give or take, maybe that answers itself if that is deemed success by a county.

Ive said it a few times I think so many traditionaly creative, skilful, attacking counties have abandoned their traditional football identity in favour of function, well drilled, spoiling and practical philosphey.

Sad o see for me.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/02/2017 19:42:23    1956798

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Replying To GDL:  "It is great to see a Mayo man acknowledge the Great Galway team of that period!!!!"
He mentioned the era but he didn't mention any names.

Spoddgy (Mayo) - Posts: 660 - 14/02/2017 20:49:03    1956840

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think attacking football has been dire in recent seasons if not non existent as an approach, especially amount the consistent all Ireland last 8, give or take, maybe that answers itself if that is deemed success by a county.

Ive said it a few times I think so many traditionaly creative, skilful, attacking counties have abandoned their traditional football identity in favour of function, well drilled, spoiling and practical philosphey.

Sad o see for me."
Scoring averages are up. Where are you going with this?

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 14/02/2017 21:30:24    1956870

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Scoring averages are up. Where are you going with this?"
It's just my impression is all, I think you could count on one hand teams that really try to win a game and attack.

Not to pick individual counties but if you look at relative success I wouldn't define Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo ( from last year on) as attacking teams.

I admire teams like Kildare, Meath, Roscommon who actually come out and have a go.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing defensive/counter attacking football, it's pragmatic and successful, I just don't enjoy watching it, or watching it being broken down.

I do think many counties are at a cross roads, in terms of identity and philosphey and I do wonder will this lead to problems in the future. For example Mayo went from a very swashbuckiling team to a very defensive team, similarly Kerry have gone for a very defensive structure, the last Time I saw them in the semi last year, I was shocked that a Kerry team set up so defensively against Dublin in Croke park, I would have thought that unthinkable.

That's not a criticism of a defensive approach it's just an observaion, opinion and an analysis, probably one others will disagree with and it's not knocking, if anything a defensive approach has proved more successful than an attacking one. I just find it startling that a lot of counties have moved away from their traditional footballing philospheys and identities, I wonder what or if any long term MPs that that will have.

I was thinking after reading this thread today of that time not long ago, when Dublin got hammered every August, despite decades of a lack of success they never changed that philosphey of attacking creative football and having ago, it's part of Dublins identity even when and will again get hammered, maybe they should have gone defensive. So I find the subject and change in other counties fascinating.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/02/2017 21:56:08    1956899

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "There's no point in looking for perfection KB. Every team in Ireland concede frees and judging your county in February won't tell you much about where they'll be in the summer months. In 2014, Kerry had a very average at best league campaign and ended up winning the AI playing a defensive brand of football in the final, it worked, it helped them achieve what they couldn't do two years previous in the quarter finals by playing a more attacking brand. You simply cant make the semi finals and finals on a regular basis anymore unless you have a good balance between defence and attack."
I know what you're say saffrondon but it's like we're in limbo at the minute, stuck between wanting to play attacking football and defensive football I'd say fitz Maurice doesn't know what he wants to do and therefore the team is confused , I see backs running up the field with the ball only to hit midfield and turn back, it's sad to see.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/02/2017 22:35:51    1956912

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Replying To TheUsername:  "It's just my impression is all, I think you could count on one hand teams that really try to win a game and attack.

Not to pick individual counties but if you look at relative success I wouldn't define Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo ( from last year on) as attacking teams.

I admire teams like Kildare, Meath, Roscommon who actually come out and have a go.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing defensive/counter attacking football, it's pragmatic and successful, I just don't enjoy watching it, or watching it being broken down.

I do think many counties are at a cross roads, in terms of identity and philosphey and I do wonder will this lead to problems in the future. For example Mayo went from a very swashbuckiling team to a very defensive team, similarly Kerry have gone for a very defensive structure, the last Time I saw them in the semi last year, I was shocked that a Kerry team set up so defensively against Dublin in Croke park, I would have thought that unthinkable.

That's not a criticism of a defensive approach it's just an observaion, opinion and an analysis, probably one others will disagree with and it's not knocking, if anything a defensive approach has proved more successful than an attacking one. I just find it startling that a lot of counties have moved away from their traditional footballing philospheys and identities, I wonder what or if any long term MPs that that will have.

I was thinking after reading this thread today of that time not long ago, when Dublin got hammered every August, despite decades of a lack of success they never changed that philosphey of attacking creative football and having ago, it's part of Dublins identity even when and will again get hammered, maybe they should have gone defensive. So I find the subject and change in other counties fascinating."
I understand what you're saying in this post but I'm not sure if I agree completely regarding Dublin. I honestly thought Dublin in 2011 were quite a defensive team because Pat Gilroy realised that they needed to be strong defensively to win an All Ireland after losing to Cork the year previous in a great attacking game of football at semi stage. I think the All Ireland semi final in 2011 is a great example of this. I would obviously hold Donegal largely to blame for the game that unfolded that day but there were 2 very defensive teams in action that day and both teams had 13/14 men behind the ball for large periods of the match. Jim Gavin came in and definitely brought a more attacking edge to Dublin's play and played some brilliant attacking football in both 2013 and 2014 until they played into Jim McGuinness's hand and got beaten by counter attacking football. Jim Gavin being the great manager he is made tactical adjustments for 2015 and ever since then Dublin have had an excellent defensive structure married with good attacking play. I honestly don't think the top teams like Dublin, Mayo and Kerry (and even Tyrone) play that differently from one another. Dublin just have a better group of players at the moment which is giving them the edge over their rivals but if Dublin were to revert to the all out attack approach of 2014 I don't think they would make it beyond the semi final stage. The game has moved on alot in recent years. A team without a good defensive game plan won't be collecting any major silverware.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 15/02/2017 12:25:44    1957038

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Thats a fair point on 2011 mate and a very good analysis.

I think the problem here lies in what you define as defensive football, you have your total blanket defense strategy like Donegal a few years ago, Tyrone and Mayo last year.

But then you get teams that have approached games more conservatively and minimised attacking play, maybe Kerry and Dublin as you rightly say. Maybe this approach is about getting the balance right between containment and breaking.

It is of course vital that there is a defensive strategy but i do feel their is a bit of soul searching in counties in calibrating this right that does have an impact on tradition, identity and philosophy, i think Kingdom Boys post above is a good illustration probably of the point i am trying to make, with Kerry trying to balance their over all approach and getting a bit confused or lost.

I do think teams are becoming more afraid of loosing and are more cautious then ever before, there is a fear out there in the either and defense has become a priority, i think teams are more afraid of loosing well andlooking competitive by keeping scores down and hopefully nicking it tightly, then having a go and living with the defeat if it comes and backing their own philosophy. There is much to learn in what is "scuccessfull" for other counties that what your county is good at traditionally maybe gets a bit lost.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 15/02/2017 13:01:59    1957061

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Replying To TheUsername:  "It's just my impression is all, I think you could count on one hand teams that really try to win a game and attack.

Not to pick individual counties but if you look at relative success I wouldn't define Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry or Mayo ( from last year on) as attacking teams.

I admire teams like Kildare, Meath, Roscommon who actually come out and have a go.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing defensive/counter attacking football, it's pragmatic and successful, I just don't enjoy watching it, or watching it being broken down.

I do think many counties are at a cross roads, in terms of identity and philosphey and I do wonder will this lead to problems in the future. For example Mayo went from a very swashbuckiling team to a very defensive team, similarly Kerry have gone for a very defensive structure, the last Time I saw them in the semi last year, I was shocked that a Kerry team set up so defensively against Dublin in Croke park, I would have thought that unthinkable.

That's not a criticism of a defensive approach it's just an observaion, opinion and an analysis, probably one others will disagree with and it's not knocking, if anything a defensive approach has proved more successful than an attacking one. I just find it startling that a lot of counties have moved away from their traditional footballing philospheys and identities, I wonder what or if any long term MPs that that will have.

I was thinking after reading this thread today of that time not long ago, when Dublin got hammered every August, despite decades of a lack of success they never changed that philosphey of attacking creative football and having ago, it's part of Dublins identity even when and will again get hammered, maybe they should have gone defensive. So I find the subject and change in other counties fascinating."
Dublin are the ultimate counterattacking team. I was at the cavan game a few weeks ago and every player floods back when not in possession.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 15/02/2017 13:20:26    1957074

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Thats a fair point on 2011 mate and a very good analysis.

I think the problem here lies in what you define as defensive football, you have your total blanket defense strategy like Donegal a few years ago, Tyrone and Mayo last year.

But then you get teams that have approached games more conservatively and minimised attacking play, maybe Kerry and Dublin as you rightly say. Maybe this approach is about getting the balance right between containment and breaking.

It is of course vital that there is a defensive strategy but i do feel their is a bit of soul searching in counties in calibrating this right that does have an impact on tradition, identity and philosophy, i think Kingdom Boys post above is a good illustration probably of the point i am trying to make, with Kerry trying to balance their over all approach and getting a bit confused or lost.

I do think teams are becoming more afraid of loosing and are more cautious then ever before, there is a fear out there in the either and defense has become a priority, i think teams are more afraid of loosing well andlooking competitive by keeping scores down and hopefully nicking it tightly, then having a go and living with the defeat if it comes and backing their own philosophy. There is much to learn in what is "scuccessfull" for other counties that what your county is good at traditionally maybe gets a bit lost."
I agree completely with you here. It is about getting the right balance of defense and attack which Dublin have obviously got bang on the last 2 years. I do think Kerry will get there in the near future and have struggled with it the last couple of seasons. As for Mayo this is year 2 for Rochford so I would expect a positive improvement to their play as it's difficult to get things completely right in the first year. Your point about fear of losing is spot on too. If you look back at the last 2 Ulster finals for example, in 2015, Monaghan were in control of the game and had a decent lead built up but then tried to sit on that lead and almost let Donegal come back and win the match and only for poor shooting they would of. A year later it was Donegal who had built up a lead 10 minutes into the 2nd half V Tyrone and instead of pushing on to win the game they again sat back and invited Tyrone back into the game and Tyrone weren't as wasteful as Donegal in 2015 and grabbed the victory. I can understand the fear of losing in these situations but I think it's important that teams don't forget their killer insticts and to go for the win when it's there for the taking. Dublin again would bethe best at killing off teams but even they can fall into the trap of making sure they don't lose like a few of their recent all ireland successes. Some of them could have been alot more comfortable than the final score shows.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 15/02/2017 13:36:45    1957082

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Please stop with the nonsense that Dublin are an attacking team. Yes, they commit numbers to attack but if you don't move the ball fast enough against them they will flood everyone back to defend also, like they did on a number of occasions against Tyrone. That's the modern game.

Dublin were the most defensive team in Ireland in 2010 so don't say they never left their 'attacking philosophy'. Against Tyrone that year they played with 2 sweepers at all times and kept 13 men in their own half on Tyrone kickouts, letting Tyrone kick it short and not engaging them until the halfway line. That tactic was unheard of back then.

On the topic in general, nothing will change. You might mistake football as being more attacking at this time of year but thats down to a lack of fitness and inexperienced players.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 15/02/2017 13:42:20    1957084

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The bizarrely shameful connotations of defensive football created by phrases like "Puke football" and "blanket defence", means styles of play are now almost purely in the eye of the beholder. Doesn't matter what style any team plays, supporters will see what they want to see, positively or negatively.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12121 - 15/02/2017 13:52:17    1957093

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Football rule makers need to have a look at why basketball rule makers introduced a shot clock. It was to liven up a game that had become too dull, and to reduce the value of possession retention, when their was no entertainment value in it for fans and TV audiences. Call it puke football, call it what you want, but 13-15man defenses inside one's own 70 is not a recipe for entertainment. It's a horror show, more often than not.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3452 - 15/02/2017 16:04:24    1957144

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Football rule makers need to have a look at why basketball rule makers introduced a shot clock. It was to liven up a game that had become too dull, and to reduce the value of possession retention, when their was no entertainment value in it for fans and TV audiences. Call it puke football, call it what you want, but 13-15man defenses inside one's own 70 is not a recipe for entertainment. It's a horror show, more often than not."
If a shot clock was introudced it would be a complete diaster. You would end up with some of lowest scoring games of all time. Teams would definitely defend in huge numbers and restrict teams to shooting from distance. In really wet and windy conditions 2 or 3 points could be enough to win a game...haha

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 15/02/2017 16:40:11    1957155

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It's not 13 to 15 men inside your half for 70 mins. When teams lose possession they funnel everyone back and the opposition attacks. If they do it at speed then they can carry it into attacking zone easier. If they don't it's slowed down and hold possession. When this happens half back also join attack and you have the situation where majority of players in one half. That's just where it is at moment. It's like the tika taka of barca a few years ago. However soccer has evolved like seen last night where PSG pushed there defensive line right up and didn't allow Barca to carry the ball. This probably is the next logical evolution in Gaelic. Everyone has copied the one template. We just need an innovative manager willing to try something different such as a full court press like basketball.

doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 15/02/2017 16:45:44    1957159

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Replying To doratheexplorer:  "It's not 13 to 15 men inside your half for 70 mins. When teams lose possession they funnel everyone back and the opposition attacks. If they do it at speed then they can carry it into attacking zone easier. If they don't it's slowed down and hold possession. When this happens half back also join attack and you have the situation where majority of players in one half. That's just where it is at moment. It's like the tika taka of barca a few years ago. However soccer has evolved like seen last night where PSG pushed there defensive line right up and didn't allow Barca to carry the ball. This probably is the next logical evolution in Gaelic. Everyone has copied the one template. We just need an innovative manager willing to try something different such as a full court press like basketball."
No offside in Gaelic football so if you push up you're leaving space in behind that any half decent side would exploit quite easily by leaving 2 mobile players inside.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 15/02/2017 17:41:16    1957186

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Replying To Breffni39:  "The bizarrely shameful connotations of defensive football created by phrases like "Puke football" and "blanket defence", means styles of play are now almost purely in the eye of the beholder. Doesn't matter what style any team plays, supporters will see what they want to see, positively or negatively."
These phrases were invented by a pundit who was sore and couldn't accept his county got beaten fair and square. Tyrone 2005 was some of the best football played. Their counter attacking style was easy to watch.

Gael85 (Dublin) - Posts: 1433 - 15/02/2017 18:08:49    1957196

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Replying To Gael85:  "These phrases were invented by a pundit who was sore and couldn't accept his county got beaten fair and square. Tyrone 2005 was some of the best football played. Their counter attacking style was easy to watch."
It wasn't even close to being defensive. It was swarming around the player in possession and being very aggressive. Often happened high up the pitch.

doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 15/02/2017 18:45:39    1957209

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Replying To gotmilk:  "No offside in Gaelic football so if you push up you're leaving space in behind that any half decent side would exploit quite easily by leaving 2 mobile players inside."
If you push up high enough there would need to be a hell of a long kick to get it to two corner forwards. Plus if the tackling is good and high pressured then it's difficult to get a proper kick pass. This is just an opinion. There could be a completely different tweak made by a coach. Nowadays any team that has someone skillful or speedy that can break the line then that is huge. Skill I think is more important but emphasis on skill. At Cavan Dublin game even Cavan's speedy players were stripped of possession. Need a bit of guile too.

doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 15/02/2017 18:50:37    1957210

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Replying To doratheexplorer:  "If you push up high enough there would need to be a hell of a long kick to get it to two corner forwards. Plus if the tackling is good and high pressured then it's difficult to get a proper kick pass. This is just an opinion. There could be a completely different tweak made by a coach. Nowadays any team that has someone skillful or speedy that can break the line then that is huge. Skill I think is more important but emphasis on skill. At Cavan Dublin game even Cavan's speedy players were stripped of possession. Need a bit of guile too."
I was thinking of the kick outs. I was thinking more so of a team starting on their own 21 and quick passes to midfield and then just letting it in when players are out of position.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 15/02/2017 22:35:30    1957290

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Replying To doratheexplorer:  "It's not 13 to 15 men inside your half for 70 mins. When teams lose possession they funnel everyone back and the opposition attacks. If they do it at speed then they can carry it into attacking zone easier. If they don't it's slowed down and hold possession. When this happens half back also join attack and you have the situation where majority of players in one half. That's just where it is at moment. It's like the tika taka of barca a few years ago. However soccer has evolved like seen last night where PSG pushed there defensive line right up and didn't allow Barca to carry the ball. This probably is the next logical evolution in Gaelic. Everyone has copied the one template. We just need an innovative manager willing to try something different such as a full court press like basketball."
Dublin often tend to go full court press particularly against defensive teams who have no fielders. It hems them in and the Dubs can rack up 6-8 points in a few minutes and put a game to bed (most Leinster matches). Mayo were the same under Horan but do it less nowadays. Kerry also scored heavily in patches against Dublin when they have gone on a full press.
You never see The Donegals or Tyrones try this out of shear fear. You also need a strong midfield to ensure they opposition don't win long kick outs and bypass your whole tactic (like Donegal did to Dublin in 14).
The reason Dublin have been so Dominant lately is that they found a Fenton who is an excellent fielder. It's no coincidence that Dublin are unbeaten when he plays.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 17/02/2017 05:14:08    1957639

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