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Replying To Whammo86: "Cork played Tipperary in the Munster football championship this year, 2,300 turned up. I would say only 500 (very generous) were from Cork. We have 250 adult team - let us say 20 players each - 5000 people playing adult Gaelic football. We have about 400 juvenile teams. Another 8,000 people. At a rough guess we have 13,000 playing members. You would think then, that we could muster more to travel an hour up the road. The reason they don't is not a lack of interest in the sport (after all they play), but rather a lack of interest in tired, dated competitions.
That explanation doesn't wash with me. 35k and 32k people attended the 2015 Munster football finals. Cork's lack of interest in an outdated competition sure sprung up rather quickly.
I wonder could the apathy have anything to do with the fact that they'd had a poor league campaign and prospects weren't looking particularly high.
Could arrogance that they weren't likely to lose to a depleted Tipperary team have played a part?
That fixture would be a quite likely division 2 league fixture in your system. Do you honestly think you'd get more than 2.5k people attending it when neither team has an opportunity to win Sam that year?" That explanation doesn't wash with me. 35k and 32k people attended the 2015 Munster football finals. Cork's lack of interest in an outdated competition sure sprung up rather quickly.
How many people attended the year before? When Cork were actually favorites to win. The match you spoke about was in Killarney were Cork people like going drinking! There were 50,000 Americans in the town as well...How many people attended this year's Munster final? 19,000 or so...how many people attend first round matches between Limerick and Clare? The kind of local rivalry that is supposed to inspire thousands to flock to because it is 'championship'. How many people attended this years Munster hurling final? The jewel in the crown of the provincial championships? When was the last time a lower crowd attended ? Was it the 1920s..you would have to go back a long time.
I wonder could the apathy have anything to do with the fact that they'd had a poor league campaign and prospects weren't looking particularly high.
We cannot rule that out. If we look at the last 100 meetings between the sides, the crowd would not have been much bigger. The GAA has suffered the Munster football championship for 125 years now.
Could arrogance that they weren't likely to lose to a depleted Tipperary team have played a part?
We would never expect to lose to them. Not even this year despite the fact that they have beaten us. Of course people are not going to attend a match where the outcome is almost guaranteed beforehand.You are the one that wants to persist with these non-events. I am arguing for abolishing them.
That fixture would be a quite likely division 2 league fixture in your system. Do you honestly think you'd get more than 2.5k people attending it when neither team has an opportunity to win Sam that year?
No - of course not. Neither team this year had any realistic chance of winning the championhsip. And despite Tipp getting to the semi-final (where they only beat Division 2 or lower teams which is a very important point), that is what happened.Again, though it is you that has the romantic notion that all teams regardless of ability should be included and then you believe that scheduling mismatches throughout the best part of the footballing summer is somehow going to promote the sport!!
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1271 - 01/02/2017 23:46:05
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/02/2017 11:46:04
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Replying To bennybunny: "That explanation doesn't wash with me. 35k and 32k people attended the 2015 Munster football finals. Cork's lack of interest in an outdated competition sure sprung up rather quickly.
How many people attended the year before? When Cork were actually favorites to win. The match you spoke about was in Killarney were Cork people like going drinking! There were 50,000 Americans in the town as well...How many people attended this year's Munster final? 19,000 or so...how many people attend first round matches between Limerick and Clare? The kind of local rivalry that is supposed to inspire thousands to flock to because it is 'championship'. How many people attended this years Munster hurling final? The jewel in the crown of the provincial championships? When was the last time a lower crowd attended ? Was it the 1920s..you would have to go back a long time.
I wonder could the apathy have anything to do with the fact that they'd had a poor league campaign and prospects weren't looking particularly high.
We cannot rule that out. If we look at the last 100 meetings between the sides, the crowd would not have been much bigger. The GAA has suffered the Munster football championship for 125 years now.
Could arrogance that they weren't likely to lose to a depleted Tipperary team have played a part?
We would never expect to lose to them. Not even this year despite the fact that they have beaten us. Of course people are not going to attend a match where the outcome is almost guaranteed beforehand.You are the one that wants to persist with these non-events. I am arguing for abolishing them.
That fixture would be a quite likely division 2 league fixture in your system. Do you honestly think you'd get more than 2.5k people attending it when neither team has an opportunity to win Sam that year?
No - of course not. Neither team this year had any realistic chance of winning the championhsip. And despite Tipp getting to the semi-final (where they only beat Division 2 or lower teams which is a very important point), that is what happened.Again, though it is you that has the romantic notion that all teams regardless of ability should be included and then you believe that scheduling mismatches throughout the best part of the footballing summer is somehow going to promote the sport!!
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1271 - 01/02/2017 23:46:05" Over the course of the GAA's 125 years i'd say the crowds for all Munster football championship games not involving Kerry and Cork have been miniscule.Few hundred ,maybe the odd time few thousand.Why is this?Is this the magic of the Munster championship?It is a hurling province,bar Kerry and the minnows have been beaten down throughout the decades ; one provincial title between them in 80 years!Why would they have any interest?
At least in Leinster,no matter who is playing,you will get a decent crowd.And the title has been shared out with lots of different winners down through the years (not including the last 10 obviously).And many of the counties are traditional football counties.
I even fear Tipp's brilliant run to the All Ireland semi final last year was just a flash-in-the-pan.Afterall,they still haven't won Munster in 80 years and haven't beaten Kerry in God knows how long.And last year was the first time they beat Cork in 50 years.In front of a 90% empty Semple stadium.As goodxas it was,i dont see Tipp winning Munster,and with the tiny fanbase and lack of a winning tradition,they will fall away again,not to be heard of for another 20 years.Same as Clare when they had one good team about 20 years ago.One decent year in 100 years and that's it!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 02/02/2017 12:13:26
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"I hate harping on about it, but it's down to resources, and looking after players, and yes, Dublin have pulled away, and you can see it. For me it's very hard to sell it to a player. There have been players who have said to me 'no Johnny, what's the point?'
"I don't mind getting beaten by a better football team on the day, or if they've a better game plan or tactics. What I do have an issue with is if they blow you out of the water because of sheer physicality and fitness and strength. Dublin have a full-time strength and conditioning coach, high performance coach, a proper chef who's there to prepare their meals."
Those comments are from Johnny Magee former Dublin player current Wicklow manager, this trend of players not committing is only going to get worse unless restrictions and expenditure caps are brought in.
Otherwise Dublin will likely 9 out of every of 10 AI's going forward as there will be nobody remoitely close to even competing let alone beatig them
BlueGolconda (Dublin) - Posts: 39 - 02/02/2017 13:18:43
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what happened to the mooted proposals some years ago to 'split' Dublin so that they had two teams competing in the c'ship? In hurling, I see that a team from Fingal competes although I don't what the arrangements are to allow this.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 02/02/2017 15:03:51
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Replying To Whammo86: "To be worthwhile, you need a chance of winning. You cannot say to an intercounty player that 'it is the taking part that counts'. This patronising in the extreme.
Right as a fan of a weaker county I find it patronising in the extreme that people from stronger counties feel they know what's better for us.
As I've said 9k attended Antrim versus Fermanagh in the Ulster preliminary round. The Antrim players weren't going into that game to take part. They trained to win and to test themselves as a better team in front of a good crowd.
In your system Antrim would predominantly be a yoyo team between division 3 and 4 do you think they'd ever get 9k people watching them in those competitions." A great attitude that. You believe that Antrim will never improve? Roscommon, Cavan, Fermanagh, Longford have played in all four divisions in the last 10 years. Not only that, they have won trophies (league titles) on route. These are creditworthy achievements. Why try and demean them? They are winning trophies at a level that is appropriate to their standard. In a league system, all teams are. All teams have a chance to improve. It is fair. The current system is unfair.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/02/2017 15:06:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "You state that getting rid of the provincial championships will affect the numbers playing the games. I hope you admit that is pure conjecture. What do you base that on?
I base that on the GPA's surveying of intercounty players where they wanted to retain the Provincial championships.
I base it on the response to the proposal to bring back a Tommy Murphy cup type championship and how players from those counties who'd be playing in it categorically stated that they wouldn't.
I base it on the fact that it is not uncommon for county players to stick around for provincial championships and to then exit panels before the qualifiers despite the qualifiers being more likely to be against opposition closer to their standard." You state that getting rid of the provincial championships will affect the numbers playing the games. I hope you admit that is pure conjecture. What do you base that on?
I base that on the GPA's surveying of intercounty players where they wanted to retain the Provincial championships.
So, when you stated that getting rid of the provincial system would affect playing numbers, you were speaking about intercounty players????????? Teams were still able to field after 2001 (all of them - a population of 100% - no need for a sample survey here) when the provincial championships were fundamentally altered. The same inetrcounty players also want to keep the Railway Cup despite it being dead in the water. By your line of argument, we had better keep it as all of Ulster won't be able to scramble 15 players!!!
I base it on the response to the proposal to bring back a Tommy Murphy cup type championship and how players from those counties who'd be playing in it categorically stated that they wouldn't.
Tommy Murphy Cup was poorly organised. I am not suggesting a return to that anyway.
I base it on the fact that it is not uncommon for county players to stick around for provincial championships and to then exit panels before the qualifiers despite the qualifiers being more likely to be against opposition closer to their standard.
Have you considered any other reason why this might happen? Or have you access to another survey? What size of a sample are you talking about?
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/02/2017 15:18:36
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Replying To bennybunny: "You state that getting rid of the provincial championships will affect the numbers playing the games. I hope you admit that is pure conjecture. What do you base that on?
I base that on the GPA's surveying of intercounty players where they wanted to retain the Provincial championships.
So, when you stated that getting rid of the provincial system would affect playing numbers, you were speaking about intercounty players????????? Teams were still able to field after 2001 (all of them - a population of 100% - no need for a sample survey here) when the provincial championships were fundamentally altered. The same inetrcounty players also want to keep the Railway Cup despite it being dead in the water. By your line of argument, we had better keep it as all of Ulster won't be able to scramble 15 players!!!
I base it on the response to the proposal to bring back a Tommy Murphy cup type championship and how players from those counties who'd be playing in it categorically stated that they wouldn't.
Tommy Murphy Cup was poorly organised. I am not suggesting a return to that anyway.
I base it on the fact that it is not uncommon for county players to stick around for provincial championships and to then exit panels before the qualifiers despite the qualifiers being more likely to be against opposition closer to their standard.
Have you considered any other reason why this might happen? Or have you access to another survey? What size of a sample are you talking about?" Yeah I misanswered that question of yours.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 02/02/2017 16:08:58
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Theres a world of difference between this team and the one of the noughties. A huge difference was immediately noticeable after we lost to Meath. Maybe a big cheque arrived on the weekend of their first match in the qualifiers and they were so buoyed up that they nearly reached the final and probably would have beaten Down, I feel.
Or maybe, and it's a tiny maybe, that Pat Gilroy changed the whole mindset of the air punching Dubs, the embarrassing hair drying goading Dubs, the flatter to deceive Dubs and most of all, the failing at the big game juncture Dubs, to a mindset of humility, dogged never say die attitude and over the few years some very talented individuals have bolstered that side and made them great.
Money can not buy you this, it's pure attitude, and I'm not stupid enough to dismiss money as a non-player, it has improved conditions for players no doubt.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8597 - 02/02/2017 22:04:03
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@bennybunny
I don't demean anything an intercounty footballer does. I have huge respect for these players and the sacrifices they make to play the game at the level they do.
Playing Division 4 of the National league is a hell of a lot better standard of sporting achievement than I have attained in my life.
The thing is realistically the lower leagues don't have that much public attention.
The All Ireland qualifiers don't even receive the attention that the provincial championships receive.
Let's face it the intercounty GAA scene doesn't really have a large loyal following. There are a lot of casual fans that are catered for by the provincial championships that wouldn't really be that interested in the competition system you describe.
Your system would be so boring.
No All Ireland final.
No provincial finals. (21.5k at last years Munster final isn't something to be sniffed at, it's about 7% of the population of the competing counties)
The Leinster final still brought in 48k people.
No chance of a side like Tipperary making a run to the later stages of the competition.
Dublin would be even larger favourites to win the championship. I'd say the league champion would need to hit 10 points minimum to win the competition. After 3 weeks you're talking about maybe 4 teams being able to hit 10 points. The competition will be decided before the last day of the season regularly.
Fairness is important in competition structures but it isn't the be all and end all. What's good for the game overall is more important.
Sporting bodies the world over recognise this.
FIFA's World Cup if it were a true meritocracy would have more European and South American teams.
UEFA's champions league if based solely on football ability would probably have about 10-12 Spanish teams, 7 or 8 teams from England and Germany, some Italian teams and a small number of other clubs like PSG and say Porto. Instead they try to have a broader mix of teams. With your disdain for mismatches this must really annoy you.
Rugby's ERCC guarantees an Italian team entry regardless of Pro12 performance.
US sports league all have teams playing uneven schedules. Same for Aussie rules' AFL, Super league rugby.
Outside of domestic soccer sports championships are mainly decided by some sort of playoff/knockout format.
These formats are broadly in the interests of promoting their sports in the best way possible. Whether that be trying to generate excitement/interest levels or in an attempt to be inclusive.
For the same reasons I feel the provincial championships should remain.
You know what though, weaker teams still have the league to play in also. I'd really like for the GAA to do more with the league. I think that as a strategy to grow a more loyal and less casual intercounty following the leagues need to be developed.
I'd have them played latter in the season, with no gaps between them and the provincial championships. I'd also like them somehow incorporated into the championship season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 03/02/2017 02:53:48
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Just a few more points to address that you raised bennybunny.
I hope Antrim improve over time. I think they're more likely to do so if they're able to get their best players to commit to playing with them. I think that's more likely if there's an Ulster championship for them to play in.
I think the player's opinions as presented by the GPA are a very valuable opinion worth considering.
Yes county teams will always be able to field. As a lover of the game I want as many of the top players to be playing it as possible. I want to lose as little of our best talent to other sports.
I'm shocked you accuse me of demeaning anyone's achievements. By your reasoning I could accuse you of demeaning the achievements of Tipperary in reaching the final of the "tired, dated" Munster championship.
I don't understand why people are so adamant about getting rid of the Provincial championships. At the end of the day they could be all run off in 4 weeks. You really don't have to budget much of the season in order to host them. From a financial point of view they more than pay for themselves.
There's some merit to the argument that the provincial championships shouldn't be part of determining the All Ireland football champion. Right now on balance I don't agree for reasons I've explained in earlier posts. For hurling though I actually feel the Provincial championships system is hurting the game and has hurt the game over the years. I feel they should be kept but separated from the All Ireland series.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 03/02/2017 03:33:15
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In answer to your question about why I think your format would lead to fewer people playing the game.
For the reasons I've mentioned in my other posts I think your format would lead to less exposure for our games.
Lower attendances, lower media coverage.
Reduced exposure of the county game would hurt playing numbers in my opinion. I'm not certain on that, there is the argument that the intercounty game is impacting on the club game to an extent that is leading to fewer people playing the game.
I hope the CPA are listened to and that the GAA do bring in a greater reform than the one currently on the table.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 03/02/2017 03:46:42
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Look it Whamm, I am leaving in la-la land if I think that the GAA would implement such a solution. We know that reform is 'glacial' as somebody else on here put it. I would like to see it happen. Perhaps as an add-on, it could be run how the national league was run up to 1999. Then you had 4 divisions of 8 (as now) but with quarter finals. The top 4 teams in Division 1, 2 teams in Division 2 and top team in Divisions 3 and 4 got in to 1/4 finals. That way all 32 teams have a chance. But look it, that will not happen either.
Also, a change in the system would have a neutral affect on some counties. I speak about Cork for sure. Our problems are internal. In fact the provincial system as it stands is really advantageous to Cork. If we ever get our act together, we are only one tough game away from a 1/4 final. Kerry at the moment are zero tough games away.
I apologise also if I offended. Your posts are fair and balanced. I might not agree with all of them but that is not an excuse to offend.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/02/2017 11:14:39
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There is a clear imbalance towards Dublin at the moment. Players are opting out of inter county football at staggering levels - 52 players declared opportunity to play for Galway footballers. Its just not worth it for them
A simple system is needed - a 32 county summer championship based with seedings based on league results. It would give the league a real boost and intensity and also we could have a more condensed structured summer championship. Not the drawn out imbalanced one we have now. Everyonr has something to play for from Feb to end of championship
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 03/02/2017 12:41:30
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Replying To bad.monkey: "There is a clear imbalance towards Dublin at the moment. Players are opting out of inter county football at staggering levels - 52 players declared opportunity to play for Galway footballers. Its just not worth it for them
A simple system is needed - a 32 county summer championship based with seedings based on league results. It would give the league a real boost and intensity and also we could have a more condensed structured summer championship. Not the drawn out imbalanced one we have now. Everyonr has something to play for from Feb to end of championship" Its definitely a fear / apathy in relation to playing Dublin that resulted in those 52 lads declining to play for Galway. Galway and Dublin have clashed so many times over the last 30 years.
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 03/02/2017 14:09:19
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That thing flying over your head was the point
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 03/02/2017 14:19:46
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Replying To bennybunny: "Look it Whamm, I am leaving in la-la land if I think that the GAA would implement such a solution. We know that reform is 'glacial' as somebody else on here put it. I would like to see it happen. Perhaps as an add-on, it could be run how the national league was run up to 1999. Then you had 4 divisions of 8 (as now) but with quarter finals. The top 4 teams in Division 1, 2 teams in Division 2 and top team in Divisions 3 and 4 got in to 1/4 finals. That way all 32 teams have a chance. But look it, that will not happen either.
Also, a change in the system would have a neutral affect on some counties. I speak about Cork for sure. Our problems are internal. In fact the provincial system as it stands is really advantageous to Cork. If we ever get our act together, we are only one tough game away from a 1/4 final. Kerry at the moment are zero tough games away.
I apologise also if I offended. Your posts are fair and balanced. I might not agree with all of them but that is not an excuse to offend." No stress bennybunny. I think we're both very much in agreement that the National Leagues are potentially excellent competitions that the GAA aren't making the most out of.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 03/02/2017 15:14:16
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That's a pretty weak point monkey. Considering Galway only won their first Connacht title since 2008, I would expect that their main focus is to be competitive not necessarily to be competitive against Dublin. The GAA world doesn't revolve around Dublin and therefore should not be used as an excuse for other teams shortcomings. Lets get a bit of perspective here, before last years Connacht success Galway were hardly competitive inside their own province let alone the qualifiers. Mayo are their biggest competition and therefore their biggest worry NOT Dublin and yet they managed to beat Mayo last year.
The fact that Galway beat Mayo, the same Mayo who competed in the All Ireland final and lost by a point after a replay shows that these 52 players who didn't make themselves available to the senior county team before last years championship didn't affect their teams chances. They won without them and I don't see any reason why they can't do the same again. If anything, Galways provincial success last year should reinvigorate the demand for places on the county team.
Maybe, just maybe, it's the players themselves that were not willing to make the sacrifices that are required to play for their county. The lads that made that sacrifice beat the All Ireland finalists, won a Connacht title and were beaten in an All Ireland quarter final by a team that they should have been more than capable of competing with. Not bad for a team who hadn't even competed in a provincial final in 7 years or even made it to a quarter final in a long time.
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 03/02/2017 15:32:54
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Galway was just one example. The same problem exists in most other counties. The huge gulf in finance and numbers means players feel it not worth the enormous sacrifices being asked of them. For Dublin players the rewards are obvious both on and off the pitch so they wont have the same issues in retaining players. The big counties will get stronger and everyone else will get weaker. Im a Dub but I can see the long term danger of this.
Also it is also very sad in itself that we have players that dont want to play for the county as the sacrifice to work and family is too high. There is something inherently wrong with that. GAA is supposed to be for amateurs. Do we really want intercounty players to be forced to choose between career and football. It will just be students and teachers who could have the time in some counties. Up against the almost professinal players from Dublin and a few other counties
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 03/02/2017 18:19:50
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Replying To bad.monkey: "Galway was just one example. The same problem exists in most other counties. The huge gulf in finance and numbers means players feel it not worth the enormous sacrifices being asked of them. For Dublin players the rewards are obvious both on and off the pitch so they wont have the same issues in retaining players. The big counties will get stronger and everyone else will get weaker. Im a Dub but I can see the long term danger of this.
Also it is also very sad in itself that we have players that dont want to play for the county as the sacrifice to work and family is too high. There is something inherently wrong with that. GAA is supposed to be for amateurs. Do we really want intercounty players to be forced to choose between career and football. It will just be students and teachers who could have the time in some counties. Up against the almost professinal players from Dublin and a few other counties" If Duffy gets his way with his proposals for the c'ship, it will create an elite group of teams with the probability of top class games. This will provide the GAA with a very marketable product and bring enhanced monies into the kitty in the coming years. Is it not likely that the players from this elite group of counties will soon realise that they have the GAA 'over a barrel' and will demand a cut of the new found wealth that they are earning for the GAA, thus bringing 'pay-for-play' ever closer.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 03/02/2017 19:40:37
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Replying To keithlemon: "That's a pretty weak point monkey. Considering Galway only won their first Connacht title since 2008, I would expect that their main focus is to be competitive not necessarily to be competitive against Dublin. The GAA world doesn't revolve around Dublin and therefore should not be used as an excuse for other teams shortcomings. Lets get a bit of perspective here, before last years Connacht success Galway were hardly competitive inside their own province let alone the qualifiers. Mayo are their biggest competition and therefore their biggest worry NOT Dublin and yet they managed to beat Mayo last year.
The fact that Galway beat Mayo, the same Mayo who competed in the All Ireland final and lost by a point after a replay shows that these 52 players who didn't make themselves available to the senior county team before last years championship didn't affect their teams chances. They won without them and I don't see any reason why they can't do the same again. If anything, Galways provincial success last year should reinvigorate the demand for places on the county team.
Maybe, just maybe, it's the players themselves that were not willing to make the sacrifices that are required to play for their county. The lads that made that sacrifice beat the All Ireland finalists, won a Connacht title and were beaten in an All Ireland quarter final by a team that they should have been more than capable of competing with. Not bad for a team who hadn't even competed in a provincial final in 7 years or even made it to a quarter final in a long time." They won without them and I don't see any reason why they can't do the same again.
Very young team. Once work and family kick in it will be very difficult to give the same commitment in a system unbalanced against them . Same cycle repeats
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 03/02/2017 20:17:59
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