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Will Leinster ever be competitive again?

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Leinster is lob sided but this has been going on for over 50 years. In Munster Kerry and Cork have won nearly every senior title yet there was no one shouting stop, Mayo went 5 in a row in Connacht but no one shouting stop, what have the GAA done to help Leitrim, Sligo, London and New York, what have they done for Antrim and Fermanagh in Ulster, Waterford, Tipperary, Clare and Limerick in Munster, Longford, Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Kilkenny footballers, etc in Leinster, the GAA have done nothing, don't get me started in the hurling fiasco, a simple idea is a cap on funding received and spent on the senior team, money to be divided 50/50 between football and hurling, any excesses money to be spend on underage coaching, training and facilities and redeveloping club football grounds, I still can't understand why the GAA allow our top 6-8 teams to spend over a million or 2 million euro on the county team while some weaker counties can't afford jersey or training footballs or even to use a gym for training, all the complaining by the public is being ignored, when the GAA try to make some changes all they do is to try and ram a square block into a round hole, it won't fit and doesn't work, the qualifiers were designed for weaker counties to get more games but all it does is give stronger teams a second chance, look at Mayo last year, look at Galway in the early 2000s they won the All Ireland Final by going through the qualifiers maybe a better system would be defeated 1st ands 2nd round teams as well as beaten quarter finalist get a 2nd chance through a B competition with the 2 finalists entering the race for Sam at a later stage, beaten provincial semi finalists and finalists get no 2nd chance, once beaten they are out riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 31/01/2017 12:40:46 1950525 Link
Replying To riverboys: "Leinster is lob sided but this has been going on for over 50 years. In Munster Kerry and Cork have won nearly every senior title yet there was no one shouting stop, Mayo went 5 in a row in Connacht but no one shouting stop, what have the GAA done to help Leitrim, Sligo, London and New York, what have they done for Antrim and Fermanagh in Ulster, Waterford, Tipperary, Clare and Limerick in Munster, Longford, Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Kilkenny footballers, etc in Leinster, the GAA have done nothing, don't get me started in the hurling fiasco, a simple idea is a cap on funding received and spent on the senior team, money to be divided 50/50 between football and hurling, any excesses money to be spend on underage coaching, training and facilities and redeveloping club football grounds, I still can't understand why the GAA allow our top 6-8 teams to spend over a million or 2 million euro on the county team while some weaker counties can't afford jersey or training footballs or even to use a gym for training, all the complaining by the public is being ignored, when the GAA try to make some changes all they do is to try and ram a square block into a round hole, it won't fit and doesn't work, the qualifiers were designed for weaker counties to get more games but all it does is give stronger teams a second chance, look at Mayo last year, look at Galway in the early 2000s they won the All Ireland Final by going through the qualifiers maybe a better system would be defeated 1st ands 2nd round teams as well as beaten quarter finalist get a 2nd chance through a B competition with the 2 finalists entering the race for Sam at a later stage, beaten provincial semi finalists and finalists get no 2nd chance, once beaten they are out" I'm sorry but the system you talk of is not going to work, take this year. Meath are looking at getting to leinst final , if you system was in place Meath would be better off loosing first day out and probably wi ning b comp to enter all ire at quarter final stage than to get through to lf and be beat with an chance of remaining in championship royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 31/01/2017 13:24:53 1950540 Link
Leinster is uncompetitive right now. It's not all doom and gloom though. Dublin currently are the best they've maybe ever been. Meath are in a historic lull. There's no reason counties like Meath or Kildare can't work their way up to being a top 5 team. Dublin will always be strong but at some point they will be challenged again. Provincial championships aren't dead though. Look at Westmeath getting to consecutive Leinster finals. There's still a lot to play for. It's still a good competition for the development of the game in the likes of Louth, Carlow, Wicklow, Wexford. Those counties would struggle to get players wanting to commit to them if all they had was a division 3 or 4 to play in. I also think Leinster would be better if there was a group stage. 2 groups of 4 and a group of 3 bottom from each group eliminated leaving seeded quarterfinals. This would mean the draw isn't set in stone at the start of the season. Being in Dublin's half of the draw means going out in the semifinals and hitting qualifier round no 2. Having the finalists be more open means more teams can have the goal of a final place and entering the qualifiers at round 4. Some of the posts on here think that a team has to be able to win Leinster to have a meaningful season. That's just not true. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2017 14:13:02 1950564 Link
Replying To bennybunny: "They should just let the Leinster championship die. There is a great competition starting next week called the national league. Hand the Sam Maguire Cup out to whoever finishes top of Division 1. That is fair, because each team has to beat the best teams to win. It is fair because each team has to play the same number of games. 24 counties are excluded and that is also fair as their results show they are not good enough. Promotion/relegation allows them the opportunity to get promoted and provides them with games at their approximate level." The system you describe would kill the game outside the elites. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2017 14:50:32 1950576 Link
It's up to weaker counties to sort themselves out, start now and build for the future, come up with an idea and ask the GAA for support, argue the point that the GAA was happy to give plenty of money to Dublin GAA now we want our share riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 31/01/2017 19:04:22 1950666 Link
I do think we (Kildare) will come good in 2 to 3 years. This years squad is probably the youngest in at least 40 years so expectations are not that high. however once these lads develop we will be dublins main challengers as we have the best young footballers in leinster and from what i can see we have a few more strong minor teams on the way over the next few years 11jm11 (Kildare) - Posts: 366 - 31/01/2017 21:23:22 1950711 Link
Replying To riverboys: "It's up to weaker counties to sort themselves out, start now and build for the future, come up with an idea and ask the GAA for support, argue the point that the GAA was happy to give plenty of money to Dublin GAA now we want our share" Right ok, I don't really know what to make of that. There are plenty from Kerry and other strong counties giving out about Dublin's funding. I'm from Antrim and I'm not complaining. Dublin has a huge population if you move away from county rivalries you'd appreciate that it makes sense for the GAA to be funding its largest and fastest growing market. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2017 21:24:17 1950713 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "The system you describe would kill the game outside the elites." OK - well ok then, That is the last word on the matter I suppose. Let us continue with the way we have been doing things for 125 years...just remind me again , how many provincial championships, in total, have Leitrim, Sligo, Tipperary, Clare, Waterford, and Limerick won in the last 125 years. Bear in mind, that they enter 6 team knockout championships where a two game winning streak could see them crowned champions!! The system above then would kill the non-elites!!!!! bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 31/01/2017 22:30:04 1950739 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Right ok, I don't really know what to make of that. There are plenty from Kerry and other strong counties giving out about Dublin's funding. I'm from Antrim and I'm not complaining. Dublin has a huge population if you move away from county rivalries you'd appreciate that it makes sense for the GAA to be funding its largest and fastest growing market." How does it make sense to you Whammo? Particularly when the second largest city in Ireland doesn't get comparitive funding for Belfast and Antrim to develop both hurling and football. What market are you talking about? Don't confuse commercial markets with the GAA. Then again the GAA hirearchy also seem to be confused in that respect. lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 2991 - 01/02/2017 01:52:30 1950767 Link
Replying To bennybunny: "OK - well ok then, That is the last word on the matter I suppose. Let us continue with the way we have been doing things for 125 years...just remind me again , how many provincial championships, in total, have Leitrim, Sligo, Tipperary, Clare, Waterford, and Limerick won in the last 125 years. Bear in mind, that they enter 6 team knockout championships where a two game winning streak could see them crowned champions!! The system above then would kill the non-elites!!!!!" This is the problem with people from bigger counties. You think for something to be worthwhile you have to be winning. It's not all about that. It's about giving everyone who takes up the games an opportunity to represent their county at an elite level. Intercounty football is a huge marketing tool and is the representative level of our games. In every other sport they are looking to be more open with these sort of competitions, look at the World Cups continued expansion. In rugby they've 20 teams even though realistically only about 12 teams could have any realistic hope of hitting the knockout rounds and only about 4 teams could win the thing. Why do they do this? To promote their game in as many regions as possible. Look at hurling where there's always been limited numbers of teams competing. The game is dead in most counties. People talk about the tiered championships being a success in hurling, they're an improvement for hurling where teams weren't playing championship really at all before. Don't forget though that even the Christy Ring cup final doesn't really get the attendance that a run of the mill football championship game would get. 9k attended Fermanagh versus Antrim in the Ulster preliminary round (Antrim had lost to Fermanagh twice the previous season in 2 poor contests). 3k attended the second Ring final between Antrim and Meath despite the first game being having been an absolute cracker with a huge talking point over the scoring mistake. I don't see how the provincial championships being 125 years old makes them less worthwhile. They are a huge part of our sport and have stood the test of time. Get rid of them and fewer people will play our games. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2017 02:50:41 1950770 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "This is the problem with people from bigger counties. You think for something to be worthwhile you have to be winning. It's not all about that. It's about giving everyone who takes up the games an opportunity to represent their county at an elite level. Intercounty football is a huge marketing tool and is the representative level of our games. In every other sport they are looking to be more open with these sort of competitions, look at the World Cups continued expansion. In rugby they've 20 teams even though realistically only about 12 teams could have any realistic hope of hitting the knockout rounds and only about 4 teams could win the thing. Why do they do this? To promote their game in as many regions as possible. Look at hurling where there's always been limited numbers of teams competing. The game is dead in most counties. People talk about the tiered championships being a success in hurling, they're an improvement for hurling where teams weren't playing championship really at all before. Don't forget though that even the Christy Ring cup final doesn't really get the attendance that a run of the mill football championship game would get. 9k attended Fermanagh versus Antrim in the Ulster preliminary round (Antrim had lost to Fermanagh twice the previous season in 2 poor contests). 3k attended the second Ring final between Antrim and Meath despite the first game being having been an absolute cracker with a huge talking point over the scoring mistake. I don't see how the provincial championships being 125 years old makes them less worthwhile. They are a huge part of our sport and have stood the test of time. Get rid of them and fewer people will play our games." To be worthwhile, you need a chance of winning. You cannot say to an intercounty player that 'it is the taking part that counts'. This patronising in the extreme. Look indeed at the soccer and rugby - they are expanding the world cups - but not to everybody. The world cup will have 48 teams - out of 206 members. Teams get better at a certain level and they move up. The national league is perfect for this. Look at Roscommon, Clare etc. You state that getting rid of the provincial championships will affect the numbers playing the games. I hope you admit that is pure conjecture. What do you base that on? Cork played Tipperary in the Munster football championship this year, 2,300 turned up. I would say only 500 (very generous) were from Cork. We have 250 adult team - let us say 20 players each - 5000 people playing adult Gaelic football. We have about 400 juvenile teams. Another 8,000 people. At a rough guess we have 13,000 playing members. You would think then, that we could muster more to travel an hour up the road. The reason they don't is not a lack of interest in the sport (after all they play), but rather a lack of interest in tired, dated competitions. bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/02/2017 11:47:21 1950830 Link
I don't see how the provincial championships being 125 years old makes them less worthwhile. They are a huge part of our sport and have stood the test of time. Get rid of them and fewer people will play our games. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1265 - 01/02/2017 02:50:41 1950770 Just because they are 125 years old doesn't make them the best way to continue equally. They are not working and need to be changed for the better. Tradition is great but not the only way. Times have changed and the GAA are slow to realise that. Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/02/2017 13:18:17 1950862 Link
To be worthwhile, you need a chance of winning. You cannot say to an intercounty player that 'it is the taking part that counts'. This patronising in the extreme. Right as a fan of a weaker county I find it patronising in the extreme that people from stronger counties feel they know what's better for us. As I've said 9k attended Antrim versus Fermanagh in the Ulster preliminary round. The Antrim players weren't going into that game to take part. They trained to win and to test themselves as a better team in front of a good crowd. In your system Antrim would predominantly be a yoyo team between division 3 and 4 do you think they'd ever get 9k people watching them in those competitions. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2017 23:28:36 1951091 Link
Look indeed at the soccer and rugby - they are expanding the world cups - but not to everybody. The world cup will have 48 teams - out of 206 members. Teams get better at a certain level and they move up. The national league is perfect for this. Look at Roscommon, Clare etc. It is not feasible to run a 206 team World Cup. All 206 teams enter each World Cup qualifying cycle and have the opportunity to win the competition. The general theme over time has been for these tournaments to be as inclusive as possible. It is very feasible to run an All Ireland football championship where all 32 teams are included. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2017 23:31:49 1951092 Link
You state that getting rid of the provincial championships will affect the numbers playing the games. I hope you admit that is pure conjecture. What do you base that on? I base that on the GPA's surveying of intercounty players where they wanted to retain the Provincial championships. I base it on the response to the proposal to bring back a Tommy Murphy cup type championship and how players from those counties who'd be playing in it categorically stated that they wouldn't. I base it on the fact that it is not uncommon for county players to stick around for provincial championships and to then exit panels before the qualifiers despite the qualifiers being more likely to be against opposition closer to their standard. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2017 23:38:36 1951093 Link
Cork played Tipperary in the Munster football championship this year, 2,300 turned up. I would say only 500 (very generous) were from Cork. We have 250 adult team - let us say 20 players each - 5000 people playing adult Gaelic football. We have about 400 juvenile teams. Another 8,000 people. At a rough guess we have 13,000 playing members. You would think then, that we could muster more to travel an hour up the road. The reason they don't is not a lack of interest in the sport (after all they play), but rather a lack of interest in tired, dated competitions. That explanation doesn't wash with me. 35k and 32k people attended the 2015 Munster football finals. Cork's lack of interest in an outdated competition sure sprung up rather quickly. I wonder could the apathy have anything to do with the fact that they'd had a poor league campaign and prospects weren't looking particularly high. Could arrogance that they weren't likely to lose to a depleted Tipperary team have played a part? That fixture would be a quite likely division 2 league fixture in your system. Do you honestly think you'd get more than 2.5k people attending it when neither team has an opportunity to win Sam that year? Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2017 23:46:05 1951094 Link
Replying To Dubh_linn: "I don't see how the provincial championships being 125 years old makes them less worthwhile. They are a huge part of our sport and have stood the test of time. Get rid of them and fewer people will play our games. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1265 - 01/02/2017 02:50:41 1950770 Just because they are 125 years old doesn't make them the best way to continue equally. They are not working and need to be changed for the better. Tradition is great but not the only way. Times have changed and the GAA are slow to realise that." I'm a firm believer that all of the 32 current county teams should be included in the championship. For reasons I describe above. Given that I think provincial championships are more exciting than what we'd get from the first rounds of some sort of non Provincial based championship. Meath vs Louth and Roscommon vs Leitrim are better ties than the likes of Meath vs Leitrim and Roscommon vs Louth which would be typical first round ties in such a competition. I think the worst thing about the provincial championships is the drawn out nature of them. It takes 5-6 weeks currently to get down to the Ulster and Leinster semi-finals so we're subjected to rubbish games week on week before it gets interesting. If the early rounds were played off in 2 weeks we'd get down to some tastier action sooner. I am not against some sort of championship reform. I'd also want the league to be incorporated into the championship alongside the provincial championships. I'd like the 4 provincial winners to be joined by 4 other teams determined by the league to qualify for the All Ireland quarterfinals. I'd like for those 4 places to be open to all teams in some shape or form. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 02/02/2017 00:18:52 1951096 Link
Look there is no doubt that the GAA need to divide the money more fairly amongst the country.The truth is,Dublin were struggling and the GAA needed to pump money into Dublin,the problem is they pumped far too much in. ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 02/02/2017 08:45:38 1951120 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I'm a firm believer that all of the 32 current county teams should be included in the championship. For reasons I describe above. Given that I think provincial championships are more exciting than what we'd get from the first rounds of some sort of non Provincial based championship. Meath vs Louth and Roscommon vs Leitrim are better ties than the likes of Meath vs Leitrim and Roscommon vs Louth which would be typical first round ties in such a competition. I think the worst thing about the provincial championships is the drawn out nature of them. It takes 5-6 weeks currently to get down to the Ulster and Leinster semi-finals so we're subjected to rubbish games week on week before it gets interesting. If the early rounds were played off in 2 weeks we'd get down to some tastier action sooner. I am not against some sort of championship reform. I'd also want the league to be incorporated into the championship alongside the provincial championships. I'd like the 4 provincial winners to be joined by 4 other teams determined by the league to qualify for the All Ireland quarterfinals. I'd like for those 4 places to be open to all teams in some shape or form." Of course all 32 counties should be included. As you mention , the playing off of the early rounds is a simple change that doesn't even seem to be being considered. There have been perfectly good alternative formats put forward which retain the provincial championships but the decision making process is glacial in its progress. If it's that hard to make a simple change that would move the games forward and give players more regular games what hope of real reform. Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 02/02/2017 11:09:49 1951175 Link
Have the qualifiers ruined the race for Sam, should we go back to the old system of knockout, if you lose you are out, remember it was run like that for over 100 years and we always had 2 or 3 teams dominating but that only lasted for a few years, Mayo in the 1930s yet only won 1 All Ireland, Galway in the 60s 3 in a row, Kerry and Dublin in the 70s early 80s, in the olden days every county had a real chance of success, nowadays it's dominated by how much your county can spend and what you spend it on, easy to see how our top 6 teams are spending well over a million or 2 on the race for Sam, while the rest aren't even spending a small percentage of that and they seem to be going nowhere riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 02/02/2017 11:26:19 1951181 Link