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Replying To hill16no1man: "It's a broad stroke to say sports psychologists work for all or work for none, it's not that simple, a good sports psychologist will recognize which players they need to work with and which they don't. It's similiar to a hypnotist, they can identify which people it will work on and which it won't after only a few seconds.
a lot of players have it in ability but their mindset holds them back.
One Dublin player id may a good wager has benifited from one to make him the player he is today, the guy has always got the ability from a very young age but his attitude off the pitch could have robbed us of seen his ability on the biggest stage if it wasn't for his change in mentality and you can be sure that psychology had a big part to play. If you don't believe you will win it won't happen its like a free taker standing over a year if fully confident they will kick 90% on a given day, if there mindset isn't right they loose confidence and doubt sets in which leads to a drop in scoring percentage.
Cuedrocket it's funny you started the thread saying its all hocus pocus as you are a guy who buys into the biggest psychological problem in sport the great myth of home advantage, which actually only exists in the mind as there is no physical advantage whatsoever involved." Haha hill,no way i'm going over that with ya again.I wouldn't get 5 minutes work done before christmas if i did!!I'm not taking the bait hill ya messer!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/11/2016 20:06:50
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Brolly absolutely destroyed McNulty in that article.Mcnulty's best bet to make a few bob, is to sell his wares around the bible thumping belt
of the six counties.They just might buy it.
charlie1980 (Galway) - Posts: 24 - 01/11/2016 20:13:26
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Replying To Brianmac78: "In an individual sport or on a sport 1 v 1 maybe it helps make the difference. Even in that though, take for example snooker 1 v 1 both players could have the same head coach telling them the same things and having each feel as good and as confident as the other. Still has to be a loser does there not? What does it come down to then? Whose the better player surely?
GAA 15 v 15 my head coach has me feeling invincible. I can have a blinder, I might not win, why? Because the other 14 lads had stinkers. Head coaches don't win all irelands. There's several determining factors to that. One which is most relevant is who has the best players. Head coaches as I've said earlier might help an individual to belief in their own ability better but they can't be held responsible for an entire squad being succesful" Excellent post.
they help an individual to realise their potential and give them the belief in themselves to go out and perform to the best of their ability.
It's an individual thing. Some need it soke dont.
Take a gym session for a team
You dont have every player lifting the same weight, it needs to be tailored individually to allow each player to lift the required weight that will allow them to reap the benefits.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/11/2016 20:16:34
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Isn't mcnulty working with man utd???
Surely they cannot be wrong as they are professional and all as we are told they employ the cream and they are always right Ormond will have you know, sure we are only hs posters alano will imply we shouldn't doubt them
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/11/2016 20:21:22
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n an individual sport or on a sport 1 v 1 maybe it helps make the difference. Even in that though, take for example snooker 1 v 1 both players could have the same head coach telling them the same things and having each feel as good and as confident as the other. Still has to be a loser does there not? What does it come down to then? Whose the better player surely?
GAA 15 v 15 my head coach has me feeling invincible. I can have a blinder, I might not win, why? Because the other 14 lads had stinkers. Head coaches don't win all irelands. There's several determining factors to that. One which is most relevant is who has the best players. Head coaches as I've said earlier might help an individual to belief in their own ability better but they can't be held responsible for an entire squad being succesful
Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts:1060 - 01/11/2016
Has McNulty tried to take the credit for any one team doing well?
Is one single sport psychologist the reason a team wins anything? No
Is a manager / coach / selector / S&C coach / dietician / physiologist / water carrier the single reason a team wins or loses? No.
If any of them though can get an extra coupe of percent out of somebody then that's a good thing. When you're at the elite end of things it's the small margins that make all the difference - that could be a sport psychologist getting a persons head right or it could be a physio giving an extra massage after a warm up session before a match.
Different things work for different people, as hill says there's no one size fits all for S&C work or on the nutrition side of things, why should the mental aspect be any different?
Icehonesty makes some great points about qualifications and proper expertise. The same is true regarding the "nutritionists" peddling quick fixes when a good healthy balanced diet would trump all the (legal) magic pills and potions. I have similar suspicions about the strength and conditioning experts. There are some great, properly-qualified S&C people out there, but there are also many people, with little or no GAA or S&C expertise, earning big money because every serious teams is now deemed to need an S&C coach. It'll be interesting to see if any serious long term injuries in the future are attributable to dodgy S&C practices.
football first (All) - Posts:1031 - 01/11/2016
The amount of people I've met who claim to be fitness or nutrition experts off the back of a basic part time personal training course and a bit of experience playing sport themselves is staggering. The problem is some of them manage to make it to a high level professionally purely because of their name or reputation (and not their academic or professional one).
There's spoofers out there working in sport. Just like there's spoofers out there working in the media and in marketing, finance and politics etc.
McNulty is highly qualified and experienced in what he does, just like a lot of S&C coaches and statisticians out there working with teams. There's not many out there who have worked with the level of athlete that he has or would have the same experience he has of sports at an elite level - how anybody feels they can justify trying to discredit him or the entire industry is ridiculous.
if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 01/11/2016 21:53:02
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Pure money racket. Mental health gurus are only successful when they work with great teams. U never hear of a guru doing the business with a div 4 side. Therefore it doesn't work.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 02/11/2016 18:51:49
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Pure money racket. Mental health gurus are only successful when they work with great teams. U never hear of a guru doing the business with a div 4 side. Therefore it doesn't work.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 02/11/2016 19:36:38
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Mind Guru's, fitness coaches, strenght and conditioning, nutritionists, physios, skills coaches and still the best team wins, terrible.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 02/11/2016 22:43:13
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Anyone read Brolly's piece in todays Indo?Haha even better than last week's.Take a bow Brolly!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 06/11/2016 19:20:09
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There's not a guru safe on our shores after Brolly's last two articles.Truly great writing.Hilarious ... ahem.... profession!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 06/11/2016 19:34:15
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Remember lads to take a tin opener to ye're minds!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 06/11/2016 19:37:39
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I'm sure there were people in the past just like Brolly who dismissed psychologists/psychiatrists as spoofers as well.
The truth is the only people ho know if they work are the people using them and they only work properly if you have an open mind about it I would imagine so really Brolly's article is as much a pile of baloney as the sports psychology he claims is.
The thing about anything to do with the mind is it only can help if you want it to help, so Brolly's ideas on it are rubbish because he already goes in with a bias against it.
uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 07/11/2016 08:07:14
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Replying To Donegalman: "Pure money racket. Mental health gurus are only successful when they work with great teams. U never hear of a guru doing the business with a div 4 side. Therefore it doesn't work." Thats a strange comment coming from a Donegal man.
Fair enough we werent Div 4 but we were nearly ready to make that plunge when Jim McGuinness took over.
We had the players but they weren't winners.
Fair enough he brought a new tactical outlook of the game but he also got the players right mentally. They felt invincible.
Jim McGuinness is a sport psychologist.
dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 07/11/2016 09:21:06
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Replying To uibhfhaili1986: "I'm sure there were people in the past just like Brolly who dismissed psychologists/psychiatrists as spoofers as well.
The truth is the only people ho know if they work are the people using them and they only work properly if you have an open mind about it I would imagine so really Brolly's article is as much a pile of baloney as the sports psychology he claims is.
The thing about anything to do with the mind is it only can help if you want it to help, so Brolly's ideas on it are rubbish because he already goes in with a bias against it." If it works for you it works!Brolly says himself you cannot prove if it does or not and says that that is the beauty of it.That's what we're debating.I think it's gas craic altogether while others take it very seriously.Before i attack the day i'm trying to visualise a progressive thought valuation of fluctuating emotional discharge.I'm feeling good baby!!
cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 07/11/2016 09:30:52
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What I'd like to know is whether Joe thinks the same of psychologists outside of sport. Going by his article you would have to surmise there is no difference. I asked him this question on twitter but got no response.
Given substantial evidence to the contrary on how useful psychology can be in improving mental health and changing behaviours I find it interesting that Joe would dismiss it so readily.
Of course thats not to say there aren't bluffers out there - there certainly is. Some of the anecdotes in the article are amusing but there isn't exactly much balance. I'll admit that people who are forever putting up these mindfulness and inspirational sayings/quotes on every social media platform they can poison absolutely do my head in.
benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 07/11/2016 09:47:06
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Replying To dstuction: "Thats a strange comment coming from a Donegal man.
Fair enough we werent Div 4 but we were nearly ready to make that plunge when Jim McGuinness took over.
We had the players but they weren't winners.
Fair enough he brought a new tactical outlook of the game but he also got the players right mentally. They felt invincible.
Jim McGuinness is a sport psychologist." I'd agree with that. Like every field, it has its good practitioners and bad ones. I had a bad dentist who took three appointments to fix one problem. I got a new one. The next time the same problem occurred, it was sorted in one visit and pain free. Jim McGuinness clearly had a psychological impact on that Donegal team and you could tell even by the way the players carried themselves. I didn't read the Brolly article but from what I've heard of it he seems to think you can't guarantee results, maybe he should ask some of that Donegal team what they think.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/11/2016 10:01:57
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I found his first article much more interesting because it wasn't really about sports psychology, it was about these life gurus who shift the blame back onto the individual. Sure he mentioned Enda McNulty but that wasn't the thrust of it, it was actually talking about how capitalism has made unsuccessful people blame themselves. You can be anything if you just think positively enough and well, if you aren't successful, maybe you should just think really hard about how you want that to change. I find that aspect very interesting because as Brolly said, that's not measurable in any way, that's preying on weak individuals at the bottom of the ladder and perpetuates the cycle where they struggle daily and sink into a depression because it's their fault. I thought Joe nailed a lot of the guff that surrounds that line of thought.
However there's no doubt in my mind that a good sports psychologist can make an impact. Brian O'Driscoll, one of the greatest sportsmen this island has ever produced, credits McNulty with helping him get back to the best he can be. I remember well there was a couple of seasons where folk felt he had lost his edge and there was some calls for him to be dropped for the starting 15. This was 07 or 08 I believe. Now I've heard Enda speak in interviews and the like and that's not really for me, it sounds like waffle but that's just me. Obviously he had a positive impact with O'Driscoll and the Leinster squad.
At the elite level, the margins are tiny and any small advantage, perceived or otherwise, is important. Saying all that the sentence he took from the former Mayo consultant about something being internalised did give me a laugh - it's hardly even English.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 07/11/2016 10:14:29
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Replying To arock: "Mind Guru's, fitness coaches, strenght and conditioning, nutritionists, physios, skills coaches and still the best team wins, terrible." Were those 20 or 30 lads in the best teams back room members all maor uisces??
Spoddgy (Mayo) - Posts: 660 - 08/11/2016 22:13:07
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Replying To dstuction: "Thats a strange comment coming from a Donegal man.
Fair enough we werent Div 4 but we were nearly ready to make that plunge when Jim McGuinness took over.
We had the players but they weren't winners.
Fair enough he brought a new tactical outlook of the game but he also got the players right mentally. They felt invincible.
Jim McGuinness is a sport psychologist." It was more a rinse and repeat strategy that got us the all Ireland in 2012. The players had to subscribe 100% to what McGuinness was setting out to do. But this is more down to copy and pasting than anything else.
You have to allow for the unknown factor of the blanket defense too. That above anything else was the reason for our success. It came totally out of the clouds at the other teams out there. I also think that the Donegal team of 2014 believed even more than they did in 2012 in themselves as they had already won an all Ireland at that stage. Unfortunately, this belief did not get them over the line, it was Kerry's tactics above anything else that won them the all Ireland and defeated us.
To summarize, this game is more down to tactics, especially on the day of a game, than it is down to positive thinking or anything on those lines. The 2012/2014 experience highlighted above would suggest this.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 08/11/2016 22:46:15
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For the benefit of this debate, I am a practicing sport psychology provider. Sport psychology is a relatively new phenomenon. The problem with how it is perceived is that there are any amount of bulsh*t artists out there masquerading as sport psychologists. At present there is no one professional group that one can really look to with regard to provision. There are various accreditation processes etc that "unqualified " people can join - with some listing in NLP, "motivation" & neuro science groups etc. Others just call themselves "Life Coaches" and work in the space. To our detriment, there are many looking to "walk in our shoes" doing the profession a disservice and hence the bad vibe coming out of the eminent Mr Joe Brolly. It is a minefield really to go online and find somebody that you are satisfied with or know will do a good job but that is where it is at at the moment as the profession (and it is a profession) is such a recent thing. That said, there are some out there who are qualified, most of whom, you will not hear in the newspapers too often. That said, Brolly's assertions are not doing us any favours but lets be clear here - not one so called sport psychologist named in this thread thus far is accredited. Obviously those that we term "the motivational brigade" are doing us a disservice. Chartered physio professionals had this issue for years but have recently made a clear distinction between themselves and the rest. This will happen when there are more accredited people in our profession also.
Gold standard accreditation in Ireland is probably Irish Institute of Sport (IIS) while more are accredited to other reputable groups such as PSI, BPS or BASES - with some accredited to one of these and IIS.
To some on here who think it is not a science, there are lecturers in the sport science departments of almost every sport science programme in this country qualified up to PHD level. It is a science for the qualified people. You just have to vet people like you would anybody when deciding to hire somebody.
Like any relationship, you have to know that you are of a similar view, that you both understand what the end product needs to be and make a plan from there. An able sport psychologist will guide you on the right path. It is also preferable that you hire somebody who knows something about your sport, that understands it, the culture and the vagaries around a dressing room context.
At present we are fighting a lonely furrow but some teams have improved and got a large degree of help with the support of qualified sport psychology provision - namely Donegal footballers, Fermanagh senior football team, Clare senior football team and Tipperary hurlers among others.
On a wider level, sport psychology was a significant thing for Leicester, Wales soccer team, New Zealand rugby and more recently the Chicago Cubs.
Joe is fond of his own voice, but not one person listed in one of his articles is a sport psychologist. Its like me attacking a group of law professionals and listing farmers in their name. It is not applicable and poorly researched. He trades on waffle in the media which cultivates his iconic status earning him money. It is ironic that one of his lines is as follows; "why bother with real science and professions when you can make a career out of waffle"
Hope this clarifies a little on sport psychology.
For the record, there are some who have a sport psychology background allied with a background in GAA that are more than concerned about the implications of the dangerous media power of somebody like Joe. It seems his dislike for McGeeney, McNulty and all things Armagh including jealousy of their success is to the forefront of this poorly researched attack.
The following is a website with some applied articles that may inform people further on what it is and how it can work. https://eliteperformancepsychology.wordpress.com
Regards
Keith Begley
IIS & BASES accredited
mrbinman (Offaly) - Posts: 29 - 09/11/2016 12:42:57
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