Anyone read Joe Brolly's piece in Sunday Indo yesterday?I thought it was excellent ; the man is a serious writer.I agree with him fully in regards to the plethora of sports psychologists and mind gurus' doing the rounds ; Enda McNulty being the main protagonist in GAA circles.For want of a better phrase,i think it's all a load of sh*te.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 31/10/2016 11:49:47    1930373

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 01/11/2016 10:58:17    1930591

I suppose there are pros and cons to it.
A lot of famous sports people swear by it.

I think its a great way to focus the mind. Its one of those Placebo effect things. If you think it will work then it probably will.

I heard so many of the little things Jim McGuinness brought to the Donegal team. I'm sure not all of them worked but the combination of this psychology stuff meant players were in a great frame of mind to complete the job that was set out.

In other word they felt invincible.

dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 01/11/2016 11:44:46    1930605

I'd imagine it's like a lot of things. It works for some and not for others.
I do think that the psychological aspect of individuals aproach and mindset is something that is important when it comes to the marginal differences at the top level.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 01/11/2016 12:00:47    1930610

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 01/11/2016 12:57:28    1930627

A huge problem in Ireland is that there is little or no regulation. Many working as sport psychologists, performance psychologists or "mental skills coaches" are cowboys with a year's training or less. Some do have a masters from WIT which is better than nothing, and others do short courses. Still. Far too little to know what they are talking about. One year's psychology education training is not enough to qualify or train someone to work with athletes in my opinion.

In the UK the name "Sport Psychologist" is legally protected and can only be used by educated, accredited people. Further, in the UK a team cannot use public funding to pay a Sport Psychologist who is not properly educated and accredited. Not so in Ireland. Some of our top people are not accredited with the Psychology Society of Ireland or the Irish Institute of Sport, even some of the best who have travelled to the Olympics with the Ireland team. But in Ireland a team can employ anyone to be a mental skills coach or sport psych- and I mean literally anyone. All you need is to be able to talk yourself into a job.

It's particularly sickening for someone like myself who has over 6 years psychology education at top third level universities, along with excellent experience in high level sport, yet are losing out again and again to former players, army guys, social media personalities, former pro boxers, and a plethora of other people who are winning big contracts with top teams in all sports, solely on the back of being able to talk themselves up. It is so so wrong. And now Brolly's article has slated my entire profession, when in reality a good 5-10% of Sport Psychologists, the ones who have properly educated themselves and sought out the right experience, are capable of doing a great job and making real, tangible improvements in players and teams.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 01/11/2016 13:00:33    1930628

Hey Enda,if your listening i'll do a deal with ya : I will put a tin-opener to my mind (as you want us all to do) if you put a stapler to your lips?Sound fair to you?As the truly god awful Ronan Keating put it " You say it best when you say nothing at all."

I'll even pay for a one-way air ticket to a place of your choice for you and that other "mind wizzard" Keith Barry to spread yere hocus pocus in sunnier clime's on other poor unfortunates.Just one proviso - you promise to stay away from Irelands airwaves for at least five years and give my poor little mind a rest from your mind boggling gobbledegook.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/11/2016 13:04:08    1930629

For all those who attribute their success to it there 10 more who have used it and won nothing. Paul Galvin won all Irelands because he played with great players who were well managed, anything he got from a mind guru was a bonus not the reason

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 01/11/2016 13:24:23    1930637

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/11/2016 14:07:18    1930647

For all those who attribute their success to it there 10 more who have used it and won nothing. Paul Galvin won all Irelands because he played with great players who were well managed, anything he got from a mind guru was a bonus not the reason

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts:1059 - 01/11/2016

For all those who have won something there's a lot more than 10 more who haven't won anything.

The pool of successful athletes (with medals) is much, much smaller than that of unsuccessful athletes (without medals) so that logic is always going to be skewed anyways.

When done right it can help improve performances, But that's the key, and it's something Brolly probably missed. It's not the first time he's had a cut at Enda either, he had a similar article in the same paper almost a year ago to which Kieran Shannon offered what I thought was an impressive rebuttal, pretty much summed it up as players are better of listening to Enda than they are listening to Joe.

It's probably the same for people in all walks of life, you're better off listening to people who are trying to be positive and want to help you better yourself than those who just constantly moan about the same things over and over.

Icehonesty I'm pretty sure UL are offering an MSC in Sport / Performance Psychology as well, how it differs from the WIT course I'm not sure but unfortunately like a lot of sport related courses you can make it as generic as you like and just throw the word sport into it along with one or two modules and you're sorted.

Too many people close to those making the big decisions would lose out if we went down the accreditation route they use in the UK. There's a lot of people doing some great work in some of the offices in Abbotstown though, unfortunately for them they don't have a big enough name or reputation to get the credit or opportunities they deserve. To a certain extent it's still very much a case of who you know not what you know when it comes to high performance sport in Ireland.

Like sport scientist the term sport psychologist is incredibly broad, a bit like the Dara O'Briain bit on dieticians v nutritionists in a way. People in a position to hire these guys need to look at the academic and professional background and not the sporting career the candidate may have enjoyed.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 01/11/2016 14:13:44    1930650

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 01/11/2016 14:18:37    1930652

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/11/2016 14:38:50    1930664

football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 01/11/2016 14:52:27    1930669

Icehonesty makes some great points about qualifications and proper expertise. The same is true regarding the "nutritionists" peddling quick fixes when a good healthy balanced diet would trump all the (legal) magic pills and potions. I have similar suspicions about the strength and conditioning experts. There are some great, properly-qualified S&C people out there, but there are also many people, with little or no GAA or S&C expertise, earning big money because every serious teams is now deemed to need an S&C coach. It'll be interesting to see if any serious long term injuries in the future are attributable to dodgy S&C practices.
football first (All) - Posts:1031 - 01/11/2016 14:52:27

The way I look at it, I wouldn't go to a doctor if I didn't know he was very well educated and trained. Likewise a dentist.

There are several professions involved in sport where there is a huge difference in quality and training.

Example- a properly trained physiotherapist will have been educated at university level for several years. Yet there are physical therapists, neuromuscular therapists, masseuses and even some lads who just "give a good rub" involved at high levels who people think are physiotherapists, but in fact aren't. Not knocking them, I'm just saying they are not physios. Likewise, a properly trained Strength&Conditioning coach, a dietitian and a Sport Psychologist will have gone to a university for several years to study their area. These qualifications do not come easily or cheaply and require serious work to attain.

Someone earlier mentioned NLP. You can do an NLP course over a weekend. Does that qualify someone to advise someone else on their stress, their performance, their relationships, their career? Of course it doesn't. These people who Brolly described, while tarring us all with the one brush, are basically people good at convincing others to part with their cash. Don't be fooled when getting someone in to work in your club or county team. Ask them where they studied. Unless they went to a University, I wouldn't part with my cash. And that goes at high level for S&C, dietitian and physiotherapists too.

Enda McNulty is a well educated Sport Psychologist. He studied psychology at Queens and has a wealth of experience with all kinds of teams. I am as well qualified as he is, if not more so in education terms. He is not a con artist from an education and training point of view and Joe Brolly again has attacked someone, in my opinion, unfairly. McNulty does sell himself, he does go into the same type of oration as the guys who are out there who are not qualified, but if he didn't do that, he'd struggle to make a living. There is no choice really, nobody in Ireland knows the difference between a Sport Psychologist and a b*llsh*t artist. Here I am, just as qualified as him, but I'm not a salesman selling the dream, and as a result I can't work full-time in the area. The cowboys have beaten me so far.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 01/11/2016 18:38:15    1930737

Too many people close to those making the big decisions would lose out if we went down the accreditation route they use in the UK. There's a lot of people doing some great work in some of the offices in Abbotstown though, unfortunately for them they don't have a big enough name or reputation to get the credit or opportunities they deserve. To a certain extent it's still very much a case of who you know not what you know when it comes to high performance sport in Ireland.

Like sport scientist the term sport psychologist is incredibly broad, a bit like the Dara O'Briain bit on dieticians v nutritionists in a way. People in a position to hire these guys need to look at the academic and professional background and not the sporting career the candidate may have enjoyed.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts:3253 - 01/11/2016 14:13:44 193065

Absolutely. 100%

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 01/11/2016 18:48:33    1930741

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 01/11/2016 19:00:46    1930744

i guess sports psychologists are a bit like managers, you have good ones and bad ones. you can have all the mind knowledge in the world but if you can't convey it properly to a team you might as well be watching the corner flags. charisma over qualifications i think.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2389 - 01/11/2016 19:24:49    1930751

imo, Brolly was right on the money with this article,tbh I laughed out loud at some of his observations.For some unknown reason I always find con men and those that buy their spiel amusing.

charlie1980 (Galway) - Posts: 24 - 01/11/2016 19:36:46    1930756

In an individual sport or on a sport 1 v 1 maybe it helps make the difference. Even in that though, take for example snooker 1 v 1 both players could have the same head coach telling them the same things and having each feel as good and as confident as the other. Still has to be a loser does there not? What does it come down to then? Whose the better player surely?

GAA 15 v 15 my head coach has me feeling invincible. I can have a blinder, I might not win, why? Because the other 14 lads had stinkers. Head coaches don't win all irelands. There's several determining factors to that. One which is most relevant is who has the best players. Head coaches as I've said earlier might help an individual to belief in their own ability better but they can't be held responsible for an entire squad being succesful

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 01/11/2016 19:45:55    1930759

It's a broad stroke to say sports psychologists work for all or work for none, it's not that simple, a good sports psychologist will recognize which players they need to work with and which they don't. It's similiar to a hypnotist, they can identify which people it will work on and which it won't after only a few seconds.
a lot of players have it in ability but their mindset holds them back.
One Dublin player id may a good wager has benifited from one to make him the player he is today, the guy has always got the ability from a very young age but his attitude off the pitch could have robbed us of seen his ability on the biggest stage if it wasn't for his change in mentality and you can be sure that psychology had a big part to play. If you don't believe you will win it won't happen its like a free taker standing over a year if fully confident they will kick 90% on a given day, if there mindset isn't right they loose confidence and doubt sets in which leads to a drop in scoring percentage.
Cuedrocket it's funny you started the thread saying its all hocus pocus as you are a guy who buys into the biggest psychological problem in sport the great myth of home advantage, which actually only exists in the mind as there is no physical advantage whatsoever involved.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/11/2016 19:57:14    1930761