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Ha ha this thread is a hillarous parody of itself, the spring series isn't yours, it's everyones :). You couldn't make it up its hillarous.
Listen all the big trophies are handed out, the score cards are in some counties got A+, some got must do better next year.
Any county that wins an All Ireland you can find or elsewise contrive an advantage that helped them do it.
You will either winter well or not.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 13/10/2016 19:47:13
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Replying To TheHermit: "I have to say that having followed and contributed to all of this over the past few days no Dublin poster has made any convincing argument to justify this state of affairs.
Yet at the same time very few are condemning it and Jimbo, for example, seems content to respond to points raised by irrelevant discussions about stadiums in Cork or Kiladre's record at senior level.
A couple of days ago I posted a long comment and asked posters such as Jimbo to explain the relevance of the arguments they were making to the overall issue of the levels of development funding that capital is receiving.
No one on the other side of the argument responded. And to be frank I'm not surprised about that because how can anyone justify or condone what Croke Park has been allowed to do.
I see some posters trying to claim that being given such large amounts of development money is not a factor in the on field success of Dublin in recent times. How anyone can argue that is beyond me.
Yes Dublin are enjoying a remarkable generation of talent, but the high quality coaching many of these players have been exposed to at underage, because of this funding, helped turn their potential into success. It will continue to benefit Dublin teams going forward over the next decade.
The GAA needs to do its utmost to ensure that every underage player in Ireland has access to high quality coaching, regardless of their geographical location. Therefore every county needs to be given their equal share. Counties that don't know how to utilise it, must be shown by Croke Park how to do it by adopting successful models put in place in other areas like Kerry or Dublin.
I sincerely hope that over the next few months this becomes such a snowball of an issue that Croke Park is forced to stop all this and bring levels spent on Dublin in line with the rest of Ireland.
The GAA is a 32 county organisation, this gross inequality has to end." This has been discussed - yes the very same article since 2015 when it was first published, numerous times on numerous threads we dubs shouldn't have to apologise for not engaging when your average poster from outside Dublin seems to forget what they discussed a short while ago. Aa simple search will reveal the endless pointless arguments put up and countered and just simply ignored becasue they don't sound convincing? because what you really mean is you don't want to understand, believe or find an answr. This thread and the article is simply a rehash of an old article - taken in this instance totally out of context out of the original totally out of context article. Why don't you do your own research and come up with your own answers? because anything we dubs say is not convincing right? How many GPO's does the GAA fund in Dublin? You will be surprised! How many clubs in Dublin? How many players? One large club in Dublin has more fixtures on a given weekend than some counties have across all codes. Some nurserys in Dublin are in the high hundreds and that is just for kids aged 4 to 7. You mention 32 counties, do all 32 fund four ways four codes equally? So before you talk in meaningless terms about taking away Dublin's cake how is Kerry's divided up internally equally? across all genders? Yeah and then we will have a real laugh. Across Ulster how are their cakes eaten? In Mayo, Kilkenny et all so you talk about 32 counties being equal they are not, some are only part time members of the GAA. The GAA - your organisation has set out to milk Dublin as a cash cow, to promote the games because ultimately it is bums on seats and you want us to explain how your orgnisation works when clearly you and the author of the article simply hasn't got a clue.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4897 - 13/10/2016 19:51:49
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"I have to say that having followed and contributed to all of this over the past few days no Dublin poster has made any convincing argument to justify this state of affairs."
And therein lies the issue. Why do you ask Dublin to justify the actions of the GAA at large? I agree that discussion of Development (and other) grants and their allocation is a good thing.
But this thread is a classic example (Just look at the title) of using a legitimate discussion to mask a thinly veiled Dub bashing session. There are things that the GAA need to fix, and venting at Dublin for what they've done is misdirected, and detrimental to the greater cause.
Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 13/10/2016 23:17:00
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So did a small amount more research on this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-claiming-the-bulk-of-gaa-s-development-funds-1.2091641
Reading through this seems to suggest a different tale than we're getting told.
Dublin receive 1.46m out of 9.5m. Counties that are getting quoted as only receiving 10s of thousands in development money directly from central council are also getting development officers paid for them by their provincial councils.
So really the balls.ie article included in the OP is a crock of sh1t.
http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-dominates-central-councils-games-development-budget-30965882.html
The indo's numbers are a little different but the story is the same, individual counties get less centrally but are still receiving money from their provincial councils.
Dublin's share doesn't seem extortionate at all.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 14/10/2016 06:42:18
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A couple of days ago I posted a long comment and asked posters such as Jimbo to explain the relevance of the arguments they were making to the overall issue of the levels of development funding that capital is receiving.
No one on the other side of the argument responded. And to be frank I'm not surprised about that because how can anyone justify or condone what Croke Park has been allowed to do.
I can't speak for Jimbo here but the point I believe he was trying to make by using those examples is that other counties get money, massive money, pumped into them from external sources not just from GAA HQ. I asked a similar question of what the definition of 'Financial doping' in the GAA actually means, does it apply only when money from HQ is involved or when money comes from other sources.
I also asked the question, how is money generated via external sources / fund raising not seen in the same light as that of money from GAA HQ? If counties can generate the money from fund raising like Kerry have for the center of excellence then more power to them. I think that's a great achievement and it shows great work by all involved to have done so. But, people also threw out terms like equality and fairness, how is it fair if one county can get that money for such a project and another can't. Is it a case of 'sorry lads, we just have richer friends then you'. The same people banging on about 'fairness' seem happy enough to turn a blind eye to this which doesn't make any sense to me. I do agree with some in that money generated from sponsorship deals should be shared out amongst the whole country especially when you see the money that Dublin are making. I don't think Dublin supporters would begrudge a slice of that AIG pie.
Yes Dublin are enjoying a remarkable generation of talent, but the high quality coaching many of these players have been exposed to at underage, because of this funding, helped turn their potential into success.
Lets just break down what that statement actually means. You believe that if you went out to each and every club in Dublin (all 200+) that they are developing kids playing football better than every other club in the country? How do you know that they aren't doing the exact same drills that a lad in Cork or Mayo or Donegal are doing?
Colm O'Rourke said it best, you don't train a donkey to win the derby. Going by your logic every kid in Dublin can go on to be a superstar regardless of talent.
Maybe just maybe, Dublin have a better crop of footballers than the other teams out there and not not because they were trained differently when they were kids but because they're simply a better football team than the rest. That's all. Like Dublin, why is it that when Donegal won their All Ireland in 2012, or when Tyrone beat Kerry every time they played them in Croke Park in the 00's that there was some unprecedented reason like a 'system' or 'puke football' why they won these games and not a case that they were simply the better team that year. While when Kerry win there's no great inquests, no soul searching, no looking for a reason why.
No offence to Liverpool fans here but this is the kind of stuff they'd throw out during Uniteds reign of dominance. That warm blanket of security of the 18 titles only lasted so long, every dent into that lead just wore that superiority complex down year after year. Maybe Dublins current dominance has just tapped that little sense of insecurity. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but in 2011, Dublin were 14 titles behind Kerry, it's 11 now. In 1992, United were 11 titles behind Liverpool, 25 years later, they're 2 ahead now
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 14/10/2016 10:13:13
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In fairness Whammo
You said the research and the article that sprung this topic into light (again) was very questionable from the very offset
Yet some posters bought it hook line and sinker, and didn't bother their arse to actually understand the whole spectrum of funding and how it works, and actually very few people know how funding works
It suited a certain agenda you see, and some posters ran with it and demanded explanations without even understanding the issue
Ignorance x 10
Now moving forward
There is still a gap and there always will be, but as I've stated from the start
I still think Dublin could cover a larger slice of the current funding, considering the stronger financial climate that Dublin GAA now finds itself in (completely off its own back mind)
The current figure still should be reduced by 20-30%
I'd 100% be in favour of Dublin GAA contributing more
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 14/10/2016 10:23:09
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Keithlemon says:
"I can't speak for Jimbo here but the point I believe he was trying to make by using those examples is that other counties get money, massive money, pumped into them from external sources not just from GAA HQ. I asked a similar question of what the definition of 'Financial doping' in the GAA actually means, does it apply only when money from HQ is involved or when money comes from other sources.
I also asked the question, how is money generated via external sources / fund raising not seen in the same light as that of money from GAA HQ? If counties can generate the money from fund raising like Kerry have for the center of excellence then more power to them. I think that's a great achievement and it shows great work by all involved to have done so. But, people also threw out terms like equality and fairness, how is it fair if one county can get that money for such a project and another can't. Is it a case of 'sorry lads, we just have richer friends then you'. The same people banging on about 'fairness' seem happy enough to turn a blind eye to this which doesn't make any sense to me."
I'm glad to see that someone got my exact point, but it's all too easy to call it "deflection" and "irrelevant" though isn't it, when it doesn't suit a very fixed and deliberate focus on one set of variables. To hell with all the other examples they don't count right?
People have jumped on the bandwagon of an ill thought out and poorly researched online article, that has now been 100% proven to have ignored several key elements to tell the whole story of how these counties are funded.
But just wait for the waffle...
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 14/10/2016 10:31:05
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Ah jayus...would you ever stop talking sense.....this is an internet forum....you are only allowed to talk HS here!!
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 14/10/2016 10:39:00
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Replying To arock: " Replying To TheHermit: "I have to say that having followed and contributed to all of this over the past few days no Dublin poster has made any convincing argument to justify this state of affairs.
Yet at the same time very few are condemning it and Jimbo, for example, seems content to respond to points raised by irrelevant discussions about stadiums in Cork or Kiladre's record at senior level.
A couple of days ago I posted a long comment and asked posters such as Jimbo to explain the relevance of the arguments they were making to the overall issue of the levels of development funding that capital is receiving.
No one on the other side of the argument responded. And to be frank I'm not surprised about that because how can anyone justify or condone what Croke Park has been allowed to do.
I see some posters trying to claim that being given such large amounts of development money is not a factor in the on field success of Dublin in recent times. How anyone can argue that is beyond me.
Yes Dublin are enjoying a remarkable generation of talent, but the high quality coaching many of these players have been exposed to at underage, because of this funding, helped turn their potential into success. It will continue to benefit Dublin teams going forward over the next decade.
The GAA needs to do its utmost to ensure that every underage player in Ireland has access to high quality coaching, regardless of their geographical location. Therefore every county needs to be given their equal share. Counties that don't know how to utilise it, must be shown by Croke Park how to do it by adopting successful models put in place in other areas like Kerry or Dublin.
I sincerely hope that over the next few months this becomes such a snowball of an issue that Croke Park is forced to stop all this and bring levels spent on Dublin in line with the rest of Ireland.
The GAA is a 32 county organisation, this gross inequality has to end." This has been discussed - yes the very same article since 2015 when it was first published, numerous times on numerous threads we dubs shouldn't have to apologise for not engaging when your average poster from outside Dublin seems to forget what they discussed a short while ago. Aa simple search will reveal the endless pointless arguments put up and countered and just simply ignored becasue they don't sound convincing? because what you really mean is you don't want to understand, believe or find an answr. This thread and the article is simply a rehash of an old article - taken in this instance totally out of context out of the original totally out of context article. Why don't you do your own research and come up with your own answers? because anything we dubs say is not convincing right? How many GPO's does the GAA fund in Dublin? You will be surprised! How many clubs in Dublin? How many players? One large club in Dublin has more fixtures on a given weekend than some counties have across all codes. Some nurserys in Dublin are in the high hundreds and that is just for kids aged 4 to 7. You mention 32 counties, do all 32 fund four ways four codes equally? So before you talk in meaningless terms about taking away Dublin's cake how is Kerry's divided up internally equally? across all genders? Yeah and then we will have a real laugh. Across Ulster how are their cakes eaten? In Mayo, Kilkenny et all so you talk about 32 counties being equal they are not, some are only part time members of the GAA. The GAA - your organisation has set out to milk Dublin as a cash cow, to promote the games because ultimately it is bums on seats and you want us to explain how your orgnisation works when clearly you and the author of the article simply hasn't got a clue."
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 14/10/2016 11:26:03
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Going by your logic every kid in Dublin can go on to be a superstar regardless of talent.
Ok, explain to me how what I said in my last post in anyway supports what you have written above?
Do you not think that getting 12-14 times the amount of development money your main rivals receive per player registered is not going to be an advantage?
There is no need, reason or justification for such gross disparity.
You can cloak all of this in mock outrage over 'bitter' posters from other counties resenting Dublin's success. But you know that's not the issue - the issue is one county being unfairly placed on a pedestal by the decision makers in Croke Park.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 14/10/2016 11:41:16
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That figure doesn't include the 1m from the Sports Council, also about 1.3m of that 9.5m figure goes overseas. So thats 2.46m out of approximately 9.2m of funding that stays in Ireland
HurlingWarrior (Limerick) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2016 11:51:01
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Replying To realman2: "I'm afraid when it comes to debating development funding the biggest debate worth having is how these funds have largely ended up in one county's kitty. Nonsense to suggest there's a debate even close to that in terms of importance.
I'm out anyway, Dublin posters always just debate the county you are posting from so to deflect from the facts that the funding structures the GAA put in place amounted to financially doping.
Be warned Dubs, the GAA will always make the decision that will be of greatest benefit to the GAA, if that decision is to split Dublin they will do it. They can use the funding they gave Dublin for the last 11 years as an argument that it is the only fair thing to do." Well I'd completely disagree that the biggest debate is why Dublin are getting more per registered player (which doesn't seem to be the whole story regardless). I'd argue that the biggest debate re: development funding is how it's being used across the country. For example in the 2015 article quoted, it says that 9.5 million goes back to games development, of which Dublin got 1.46 million. That leaves over 8 million for 31 counties on games development - over 250,000 each. Yet the article states:
"Many of the smaller counties (Leitrim, Longford, Monaghan, etc) received just €39,000"
Why?
Seems the whole story isn't being told and some easy figures are being bandied about. I'm sure Dublin do get more than other counties and I think the GAA need to do a lot lot more to help struggling counties to develop. That's really nothing to do with Dubiln fans and the DCB though, and they shouldn't have to justify to you or anyone else the decision making of the GAA.
Now a chat about what how the games development fund is managed, how the split is worked out, what counties get from their provincial councils etc., would be a very interesting one to me because I suspect there isn't much method to the madness and there isn't much motivation within the GAA to push stronger development in weaker counties. I've no real interest in over and back posts of "what about your new stadium in Cork" and "why do the Dubs get so much help"?
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 14/10/2016 12:18:39
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Replying To TheHermit: "Going by your logic every kid in Dublin can go on to be a superstar regardless of talent.
Ok, explain to me how what I said in my last post in anyway supports what you have written above?
Do you not think that getting 12-14 times the amount of development money your main rivals receive per player registered is not going to be an advantage?
There is no need, reason or justification for such gross disparity.
You can cloak all of this in mock outrage over 'bitter' posters from other counties resenting Dublin's success. But you know that's not the issue - the issue is one county being unfairly placed on a pedestal by the decision makers in Croke Park." Hermit, you brought in the argument about how this development money has lead to Dublin's recent success not me. You implied that because of this advantage, it is this better coaching of children in Dublin than anywhere else that Dublin are now successful. I'm arguing that this is not a fact at all. You can say it's an advantage, how much of an advantage you can't say exactly.
If a kid is coached by a full time coach in one county is he automatically going to be a better player than other kids in other counties because they're trained by a part time / volunteer coach? Even if that were true, how much better would they be? How do you gauge that? How do you tell which players from which counties were trained by better coaches than others? There is no 100% 'right path' for a kid to develop as a footballer, i.e. if you do x, y and z you become a great footballer. Coaches can only bring you so far, the majority is down to the individual.
I would dare say that if you went to any training for any underage group in a Dublin club tomorrow you'll find they're doing the same stuff that any other club around the country are doing.
The biggest problem with yours and most other counter arguments on this topic is that you don't know exactly what this development money does or what advantage it has given. You can't give specific examples of where this development money has made this player or that player in Dublin a better footballer. Instead you've just given a high level arbitrary reasoning that because Dublin received money and because they're now winning consistently that it's all down to the money.
All I'm saying is, it's not. They're just the best team out there at this moment in time
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 14/10/2016 12:26:55
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"That figure doesn't include the 1m from the Sports Council"
The SPOI is a statutory body - So the money came from government funding. Should Dublin have to explain and justify why a government body saw fit to give them a grant?
Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 14/10/2016 12:44:13
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Replying To keithlemon: " Replying To TheHermit: "Going by your logic every kid in Dublin can go on to be a superstar regardless of talent.
Ok, explain to me how what I said in my last post in anyway supports what you have written above?
Do you not think that getting 12-14 times the amount of development money your main rivals receive per player registered is not going to be an advantage?
There is no need, reason or justification for such gross disparity.
You can cloak all of this in mock outrage over 'bitter' posters from other counties resenting Dublin's success. But you know that's not the issue - the issue is one county being unfairly placed on a pedestal by the decision makers in Croke Park." Hermit, you brought in the argument about how this development money has lead to Dublin's recent success not me. You implied that because of this advantage, it is this better coaching of children in Dublin than anywhere else that Dublin are now successful. I'm arguing that this is not a fact at all. You can say it's an advantage, how much of an advantage you can't say exactly. If a kid is coached by a full time coach in one county is he automatically going to be a better player than other kids in other counties because they're trained by a part time / volunteer coach? Even if that were true, how much better would they be? How do you gauge that? How do you tell which players from which counties were trained by better coaches than others? There is no 100% 'right path' for a kid to develop as a footballer, i.e. if you do x, y and z you become a great footballer. Coaches can only bring you so far, the majority is down to the individual. I would dare say that if you went to any training for any underage group in a Dublin club tomorrow you'll find they're doing the same stuff that any other club around the country are doing. The biggest problem with yours and most other counter arguments on this topic is that you don't know exactly what this development money does or what advantage it has given. You can't give specific examples of where this development money has made this player or that player in Dublin a better footballer. Instead you've just given a high level arbitrary reasoning that because Dublin received money and because they're now winning consistently that it's all down to the money. All I'm saying is, it's not. They're just the best team out there at this moment in time"
The only fact or figure that is relevant to this discussion is the one I posted on page one of this topic, Dublin getting €270 odd per player for development funding versus €19-22 for almost every other county.
Your basically saying it is no advantage to Dublin having the ability to employ, because of this money, 100 coaching/development officers full time who are able to visit every club or school on a say a weekly basis and nurture talent.
Where as perhaps a county the geographical size of Mayo might only be able to afford 5 and those 5 might get to an individual school or club once every month or two.
And you think that's not an advantage over other counties?
Fair enough if that's what you think, but your wrong.
Money makes it a lot easier for potential to be turned into results. That's what has happened with Dublin. And I'd have no qualms about Dublin getting the money they do if everywhere else was also getting its fair share.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 14/10/2016 13:14:33
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I disagree with your assertion that many of the issues you talk about arent relevent, they arent for the purpose of your arguement but in the context of decision making of course those things are relevent in decision making at council, the reality is Dublin have far more leverage then any other county at the negotiating table, you can talk about the morality or the equity of that but thats the truth.
What happened between the FA and PL is a cautionary tale, for the GAA. Where would the GAA be if it lost over a third of its market, if say a Dublin or a Kerry broke from the GAA and set up an alterntive championship, the picture changes dratically for the GAA. You might say thats not a risk, but compartively as money floods into the game its happened in every other sport.
The figures people quote in terms of registered players are a bit disgenuour, you can spin figures any way you want to prove an arguement. For example if you took per head of population by structural funding i'm sure Dublin wouldnt come out pretty well.
There was a lovely piece up here last weekend that at every level of Dublin underage structure there is an ex player there voluntarily coaching on weekends and weekends. I hear rural lads cribbing about not being able to get 15 young lads out at club games, im sure if the likes of O Ses and a few others gave their time to youth and club development like Dublin the young fellas will flock, sometimes having the right structures in place just isnt about money, sometimes it comes from the resources committed in spirit as much as finance by your own county.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/10/2016 13:40:07
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Replying To TheUsername: "I disagree with your assertion that many of the issues you talk about arent relevent, they arent for the purpose of your arguement but in the context of decision making of course those things are relevent in decision making at council, the reality is Dublin have far more leverage then any other county at the negotiating table, you can talk about the morality or the equity of that but thats the truth.
What happened between the FA and PL is a cautionary tale, for the GAA. Where would the GAA be if it lost over a third of its market, if say a Dublin or a Kerry broke from the GAA and set up an alterntive championship, the picture changes dratically for the GAA. You might say thats not a risk, but compartively as money floods into the game its happened in every other sport.
The figures people quote in terms of registered players are a bit disgenuour, you can spin figures any way you want to prove an arguement. For example if you took per head of population by structural funding i'm sure Dublin wouldnt come out pretty well.
There was a lovely piece up here last weekend that at every level of Dublin underage structure there is an ex player there voluntarily coaching on weekends and weekends. I hear rural lads cribbing about not being able to get 15 young lads out at club games, im sure if the likes of O Ses and a few others gave their time to youth and club development like Dublin the young fellas will flock, sometimes having the right structures in place just isnt about money, sometimes it comes from the resources committed in spirit as much as finance by your own county." But Kerry have the right structures in place, the evidence is there for all to see over the last 3 years, the fact remains we are getting 14 times less funding than Dublin. Other counties that can't even match what Kerry have are suffering far worse in comparison to Dublin.
Having structures is one thing, having the money being pumped into them to make them work effectively is another, that's what this issue is about.
And yes username my whole argument is based on the equality and morality of it all. I don't care that Dublin have a bigger voice at the table, that should not matter. It's against the whole ethos of the GAA what has been allowed to happen.
Anyway I've said all I wanted to say on it, so I'll leave it there.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 14/10/2016 13:55:05
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Loads of posters losing their s**t over an article that was poorly researched and simply doesn't tell the whole story about funding, it didn't even come close to having a well balanced appraisal of funding
The down right incorrect figures contained in that article are still being peddled by some
You have no argument, if your argument is based on the figures published in that article.
The numbers contained have been proven without a doubt to be a very poor reference point
It is true that Dublin is still getting more funding but look at the words coming from the GAA, Dublin should always get more funding, but they are looking to make things as balanced as they can, that is all that can be done, and already we're seeing extra funding going to several counties, which will hopefully be as well managed and deliver positive results for the GAA as a whole
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 14/10/2016 13:57:26
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Last nights championship draw showed what the big problem in the GAA, we had the draw for Leinster and Munster in hurling, why can't the GAA see the massive problem that is Connacht and Ulster with hurling, why isn't millions being pumped into those provinces to get the counties up to Liam McCarthy level, we need money put into underage level and support for trainers and managements, they are the future of our games, at the moment the strong counties are getting stronger and weaker counties getting weaker and instead deciding to put money into the other GAA game
riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 14/10/2016 14:11:38
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Replying To Jaden: ""That figure doesn't include the 1m from the Sports Council"
The SPOI is a statutory body - So the money came from government funding. Should Dublin have to explain and justify why a government body saw fit to give them a grant?" When The ISC Funding deal which was brokered by Bertie (Surprise, surprise) and the enormous sponsorship which only Dublin could possibly attain are taken into consideration why does Dublin need by far the biggest funding output from the GAA on top of that?
You can't just ignore the ISC funding and pretend it doesn't exist, that source of funding isn't available to anyone else so to suggest it isn't an advantage is insulting.
TheUsername - the reason rural clubs are struggling is down to severe lack of numbers - particularly young males many of which are forced to leave their area due to no investment from the Government in terms of jobs over a long period of time. It's not like they have thousands of kids/young people to draw from. In many instances club players in rural areas have to travel from long distances to play with their home club which is a remarkable sacrifice
HurlingWarrior (Limerick) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2016 14:18:53
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