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Are Mayo Bottlers??

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I don't see how anyone can call them anything other than bottlers. They epitomise the term. No leaders or backbone when it really counts. No ability to grind it when the going gets tough. An excuse that is becoming all too common in their defense is that on paper they were always the weaker team going into the final. Maybe so, but many teams are weaker on paper and still manage to rise to the occasion and grind it out? The weaker team on paper theory kind of gets thrown out the window when you factor in some of the great positions they got themselves into, only to find new ways to lose and throw it all away. How many times were Meath teams of the past weaker on paper and got played off the field yet still came out on top? Mayo have a "soft" mentality, just like the current Meath team. It seems people are trying to be kind to Mayo as to not kick someone when they are down, but sure that's just the way it is. They need to toughen up 32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4122 - 04/10/2016 13:49:21 1922376 Link
Replying To bdbuddah: "Mayo were very much underdogs in 1996 final. Meath had beaten Dublin and Tyrone (putting in a great display against Tyrone in the Semi-final) on the way to that final, the 2 finalists from the previous year. Before the drawn final Meath were warm favourites. Most people (wrongly) thought Meath would win the replay fairly easy also as they put the drawn final down to an off day for Meath." Mayo were well fancied to win the 97 Final.They had the experience of playing in the Final in 96(and replay) and apart from the outstanding Maurice Fitzgerald, that was an average enough Kerry team.Indeed Mayo had beaten Kerry in the semi final in 96 so they were seen as having every chance in the 97 Final.It started to go wrong for Mayo when Dermot Flanagan got injured and Maughan made a number of changes.Maurice Fitzgerald had a stormer but there were still only 3 points in it at the end.Very different from the Finals of 04 and 06 when Kerry beat Mayo well on both occasions. endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2170 - 04/10/2016 13:57:19 1922379 Link
They keep coming back, keep taking hits and keep coming back, if they were bottlers then they wouldnt even do that. It has to be remembered that they are no up against a Dublin team that will probably go down as one of the greatest of all. Theyeve just come up short, they had plenty of leaders the last 2 days they played for example. Wrong to call them bottlers in my mind tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1349 - 04/10/2016 14:07:13 1922384 Link
Replying To endgame: "Mayo were well fancied to win the 97 Final.They had the experience of playing in the Final in 96(and replay) and apart from the outstanding Maurice Fitzgerald, that was an average enough Kerry team.Indeed Mayo had beaten Kerry in the semi final in 96 so they were seen as having every chance in the 97 Final.It started to go wrong for Mayo when Dermot Flanagan got injured and Maughan made a number of changes.Maurice Fitzgerald had a stormer but there were still only 3 points in it at the end.Very different from the Finals of 04 and 06 when Kerry beat Mayo well on both occasions." 3 in it in the end, but only the Ciaran Mac penalty kept the score that close. Kerry were in control from start to finish. As for a poor Kerry team?? Darragh O'Se, Declan O'Keefe, Seamus Moynihan, Dara O'Ceinneide, Pa Leide, Killian Burns, William Kirby - all excellent players, and 2 of them all-time legends of the game along with Maurice himmself. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5016 - 04/10/2016 14:24:31 1922398 Link
Cedars and the westward sun. The darkening sky. A man alone Watches beside the fallen wall The evening multitudes of sin Crowd in upon us all. For when the light fails they begin Nocturnal sabotage among The outcast and the loose of tongue, The lax in walk, the murderers: Our twilight universal curse. Children are faultless in the wood, Untouched. If they are later made Scandal and index to their time, It is that twilight brings for bread The faculty of crime. Only the idiot and the dead Stand by, while who were young before Wage insolent and guilty war By night within that ancient house, Immense, black, damned, anonymous. Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 04/10/2016 14:26:10 1922399 Link
They went toe to toe with Dublin for 160mins and lost narrowly. They showed no fear at any stage. You can't seriously question their courage. They suffered clearly with bad luck in conceding 2 ogs the 1st day. I'd like to see them do it but it's hard to win Sam. Mayo is the 17th most populated county in Ireland. They need to pull off a real underdog effort, which they nearly did the first day. SirStrawHat (Dublin) - Posts: 58 - 04/10/2016 14:40:45 1922409 Link
I hate the term bottlers..it's just lazy analysis..I'm pretty sure, that in the next two years Mayo will win Sam. delordub (Kildare) - Posts: 108 - 04/10/2016 14:48:31 1922414 Link
Define 'bottlers? I'm never sure exactly what it's supposed to mean, it's often thrown at teams ( unfairly in my view) whose only crime is to lose more than they win. There's no doubt in my mind that Mayo could have won and maybe even should have won, they lost by the narrowest of margins.Their effort on both days was nothing short of heroic. It's a big problem for counties like Mayo who don't have a history or culture of winning when they play a county that has as Dublin do.They really do need to be several points better to win by one. So in my opinion Mayo are not bottlers just the unluckiest county there is. Barnowl94 (Galway) - Posts: 3150 - 04/10/2016 15:03:14 1922419 Link
Replying To cavanman47: "3 in it in the end, but only the Ciaran Mac penalty kept the score that close. Kerry were in control from start to finish. As for a poor Kerry team?? Darragh O'Se, Declan O'Keefe, Seamus Moynihan, Dara O'Ceinneide, Pa Leide, Killian Burns, William Kirby - all excellent players, and 2 of them all-time legends of the game along with Maurice himmself." No such thing as a poor Kerry team.I said apart from Fitzgerald, an average Kerry team and it was.Seamus Moynihan and Dara O'Se went on to be top players and Kerry had a much better team in 2000 when they won their next All-Ireland but that Kerry team of 1997 was very beatable.It was a huge missed opportunity for Mayo.Mayo played poorly and still only lost by 3 points.As I also said, Mayo had beaten Kerry in the previous year's All-Ireland semi Final and had done so quite comfortably.It was Mayo's to lose in 97 and they lost it. endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2170 - 04/10/2016 15:04:04 1922420 Link
Lads, way I see it is 32_4_1 make the most sense on this forum. I dont like to say it but the more I look back the more I have to say they bottled it. If traditional counties like Galway or Kerry had these players they would win an All Ireland with them. GalwayPaddy (Galway) - Posts: 15 - 04/10/2016 15:15:19 1922428 Link
Bottlers suggests a mental weakness. That the team itself is capable of winning but a mental doubt is preventing them from doing it and they lose their nerve. I don't think this is the case with Mayo. I think this year it has been a mixture of dodgy management calls and lacking some quality up front that has cost them. Intensity will get you so far, reminds me of Dublin hurlers to an extent, but you have to have quality, a tactical plan that sticks and the management have to make the right calls (Costelloe scores 3 points for Dublin, poor Rob H concedes 1-3 for Mayo). Everything has to go right for you over a number of games and it's not easy. If they fine tune their forwards they could pull it off next year but Tyrone are getting stronger and Kerry are on the rise at underage so it isn't going to be an easier. Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 04/10/2016 15:24:09 1922434 Link
Replying To Cbar: "Sadly I have to say that I believe there is a fear this team that has cost us dearly. Not so much in this years final although we were in contention to win it but there were better examples over the years: - 2013 after we got the goal in the second half we were in a great position to go on and win. Instead we conseeded a sh!te goal and gave up the lead straight away. It was there for us to kick on - 2014 (the worst IMO) the second half against Kerry in the drawn match was i think the best display of football by a Mayo team I can remember until we were 4 up and we realisied we were going to beat Kerry then we froze and ended up drawing the game. Lost the replay and we spent the next few weeks complaining about the referee, the venue etc.. if we hadn't choked in Dublin there wouldn't be a replay - 2015 - lucky not to lose the drawn match against Dublin - didn't really deserve a draw. But in the replay 4 up with 15 to play, we lost by 7. There is always a hard luck story for Mayo. And this year, I actually think it applies, how we ended up 5 down at HT in the drawn match was hard luck but the examples above show (IMO) that its not all bad luck. Mayo have a great team and i would think they have better players than many teams that won AI's over the years. But there seems to be a fear in them that when the line is in sight they freeze like rabbits in the headlights. If I could figure out how to change that i suppose I'd be a wealthy man!" Very good post Cbar, nobody like to see anyone getting kicked when they are down,and I can see that from Dublin posters,who are gracious in victory, but they know the truth as well about Mayo but won't say it because of good manners, but I personally believe there is a problem with Mayo's mentality, Mayo have lost their nerve in so many games, even in Saturdays replay Aidan O'Shea and Andy Moran seemed to be shadows of themselves at times, I remember Andy Moran had a good chance to point and draw level,but his weak shot tailed to the right, similarly Aidan O'Shea had a hail Mary kick that drifted hopelessly wide,other days both would have swung those kicks over the bar, I don't know Mayo looked beaten to me from about the 40 min mark, the drawn match with Kerry in'14, also Keegans effort to put them 5 up last year,he seemed to lose the power to kick the ball, seems like Mayo are afraid to win almost, I know that sounds crazy but after so many times losing their nerve or 'bottling it' you'd have to think there is something badly wrong with the mentality. Mayo beat themselves almost. El_Torro (Tyrone) - Posts: 155 - 04/10/2016 15:24:56 1922435 Link
Replying To Cbar: "Sadly I have to say that I believe there is a fear this team that has cost us dearly. Not so much in this years final although we were in contention to win it but there were better examples over the years: - 2013 after we got the goal in the second half we were in a great position to go on and win. Instead we conseeded a sh!te goal and gave up the lead straight away. It was there for us to kick on - 2014 (the worst IMO) the second half against Kerry in the drawn match was i think the best display of football by a Mayo team I can remember until we were 4 up and we realisied we were going to beat Kerry then we froze and ended up drawing the game. Lost the replay and we spent the next few weeks complaining about the referee, the venue etc.. if we hadn't choked in Dublin there wouldn't be a replay - 2015 - lucky not to lose the drawn match against Dublin - didn't really deserve a draw. But in the replay 4 up with 15 to play, we lost by 7. There is always a hard luck story for Mayo. And this year, I actually think it applies, how we ended up 5 down at HT in the drawn match was hard luck but the examples above show (IMO) that its not all bad luck. Mayo have a great team and i would think they have better players than many teams that won AI's over the years. But there seems to be a fear in them that when the line is in sight they freeze like rabbits in the headlights. If I could figure out how to change that i suppose I'd be a wealthy man!" Good post. Agree with alot of what you say. Luck has alot to do with it as well. I think the Jonah Complex could be applied in a sporting context to a certain extent to this Mayo team. Heard or read about this a few weeks ago, can't remember but I thought of this Mayo team upon hearing of the Jonah Complex. (The Jonah complex is the fear of success which prevents self-actualization, or the realization of one's potential. It is the fear of one's own greatness, the evasion of one's destiny, or the avoidance of exercising one's talents.) Thought that after cutting the 5 point gap to draw level after half time in first game Mayo went back into themselves. I felt pushing on at that point and taking the lead and building on it was vital. They seemed to freeze again and let Dublin back into the game. It's that fear again that you have given examples of. The bottlers label is just to easy to throw at certain teams. Lazy analysis really. Weary (None) - Posts: 249 - 04/10/2016 15:29:42 1922437 Link
Replying To AthboyCelt: "I would say bad luck to be honest, I firmly believe there is something in that curse :). Look at the outrageously lucky point Colm Coyle scored in 96' if that doesn't mean they are jinxed then nothing will." In the 1996 drawn final the referee played almost no injury time (as soon as Colm Coyles point hopped over the bar he blew the match on the kickout which was just on 70 mins at that time, he was happy with a draw match). Meath were just after reeling off 6 points in a row, completely one way traffic at that stage. In the end of the 1996 drawn final you could say Mayo were unlucky the ball hopped over the bar but on the other hand you could also have said Mayo were lucky the ref did not play the about 2 minutes injury time expected as the way the game was going at that stage they would probably would not have got a replay if he did. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1356 - 04/10/2016 15:30:47 1922439 Link
Certainly not bottlers, a great team missing a out and out scoring forward. We rode our luck at times. realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 04/10/2016 15:33:20 1922440 Link
Overall I don't consider Mayo bottlers. As many people have said here they have been underdogs in all finals they have lost. In truth the teams who beat them in each final were usually a little bit better and in in the case of Kerry in 2004 and 2006 far better. In all those finals they only time their nerve really cost them was in the 1996 drawn final against us, they should have won being 6 points up with 10 mins left. Even there in most matches they would have got away with sitting back but Meath did really well to take the opportunity and draw the game. When you look at Mayo yes they have lost a lot of finals since 1989 but they deserve great credit for dusting themselves off after being beaten in big matches and continually coming back to contend in the following years, that shows a bit of balls. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1356 - 04/10/2016 15:57:42 1922452 Link
Bottlers, or "chokers" as it's known in the US, is a very derogatory term to describe a sports player or team, and I'm loathe to use it against anyone, but I will say that I cannot think of any other sports team/county which has consistently had as many calamities befall them on the big occasion, many of them self-inflicted. The below examples are from the top of my head so feel free to add any I've forgotten, or to correct any inaccuracies. - 1996: losing a 6-point lead against Meath. - 2006: My recollection is hazy on this one but did they concede 2 or 3 goals to Kerry in the first 10-15 minutes of the match. Match over as a contest from an early stage. - 2012: conceded a goal to Donegal after 2 minutes, conceded another one before the 10 minute mark. Playing catch-up for rest of the match. - 2013: Losing by 2 points to Dublin in injury time, Cillian O'Connor takes about a minute to tap over a close range free. Ref blows full time on Cluxton's kick-out. - 2014 (draw): 2 first half own goals. Ok, the second one was unlucky but the first was awful. - 2014 (replay): the Robbie Hennelly fiasco and O'Connor's late miss (ok, a difficult free it was, but it feeds into the stereotype, doesn't it?) In most of the All-Ireland finals, they've played quite well and many of them have been very close-run. They've very rarely got hammered or stunk the place out. But their finals do seem to have been disproportionately characterised by a combination of a loss of big leads, concession of multiple early goals, concession of own goals, horrific goal keeping errors and terrible decision making by players and management. ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 04/10/2016 15:59:29 1922453 Link
I'd actually like to see Mayo finally win one Just so we don't have to listen to this "poor Mayo, isn't it awful" stuff over and over and over jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 04/10/2016 16:00:01 1922454 Link
Why do people keep saying that Mayo need better forwards or that they are one forward short of greatness? Just look at the team and the subs, they are fantastic. The culture in the GAA is that second place is the worst place to be but in the Olympics and other sports this is not the case. No other county could have rattled the dubs for 154 minutes. The fact that Mayo have 8 senior runners up medals since 1989 is a great achievement. maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 04/10/2016 16:05:28 1922458 Link
no way are Mayo bottlers. Any team that makes 3 All Irelands in 5 years is not a bad team. They lack ruthless forwards which has cost them in big games in recent years. Gael85 (Dublin) - Posts: 1433 - 04/10/2016 16:11:42 1922462 Link