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It was the inter county managers who put pressure on the GAA to get rid of the sin bin last time and they did not give it a chance to work. gohome (USA) - Posts: 20 - 04/10/2016 13:42:46 1922370 Link 0 |
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Why are people saying it hasn't worked when it clearly has reduced the incidents of cynical fouling, we have lads on here saying that it hasn't got rid of them all but it has got rid of the ones that it was intended to do. I saw a comment on mistimed tackles - your joking right, a mistimed tackles end up being yellows not black. We always get the rugby comparison rolled out, even in a game that uses extensive video replay there are debates over if the yellow/nothing or red was the right call, in club rugby games there is no video and believe me lads on the sideline are scratching their heads often as to why a yellow was given. The sin bin/black card/yellow card all have one very important trait - the judgement of the referee. That just cannot be taken out of the game, replace the black card with the sin bin and you will have the very same people on here and on the TV complaining about it and say referees are inconsistent and the sin bin is ruining the game. Referees are human and do not go out with the intention to give out cards on the other hand players often go out with the intention of fouling the opposition - tell me now which one is ruining the game. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 04/10/2016 16:07:15 1922459 Link 2 |
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Scrap the black card and introduce the 10 minute sin bin and 21 yard free for the current "black card" fouls. Simple. As a selfish sports fan, I don't want to see Johnny Cooper and Lee Keegan, two of the best defenders in the country, ejected so early from football's showpiece event for what are fairly innocuous fouls. I know of no other sport in the world where players are ejected for something so harmless. It really is football cutting off its nose to spite its face, all to pander to the egos of a handful of "experts". ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 04/10/2016 16:25:41 1922470 Link 0 |
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from wha I recall he was alledgedly told there was 40 sec left so he kicked it over expecting another attack. there was some controversy over that at the time as the ref blew it up without another attack
centerfield (Mayo) - Posts: 360 - 04/10/2016 18:06:54 1922533 Link 0 |
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The AFL use the 50m penalty. Why not have some variation of that. sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 05/10/2016 10:23:08 1922731 Link 0 |
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What has it gotten rid of though? Practically every thing it was meant to have gotten rid off was on display in the 2 all ireland finals this year! Deliberately pull down an opponent. Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot. Deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official. Every single one of those was in evidence in just 2 of the most recent games! Thats the problem with this rule, Its introduction was to try and eradicate these fouls. Your never going to eradicate these fouls, to believe that you can eradicate them is naive from the people who introduced it. What you need to do is punish it accordingly. At the moment the punishment for these fouls is to be allowed bring a substitute!! The reason given for this was they didnt want to punish a team for a players actions which would be fine if football wasnt a bloody team game to begin with. The black card hasnt eradicated any of these fouls and has failed to adequately punish the foul itself. Its been a complete failure in my book. Players are now going to ground far easier in the hope of a black card being thrown out, Referees are given an impossible job trying to read a players intentions along with the actual foul, was it deliberate, was it accidental? I dont blame the refs at all for this fiasco, i feel sorry for them and blame the people who brought this in and blindly continue to defend it, the latest being the playground reaction of Eugene Mc Gee to criticism from Jim Mc Guinness (honestly it was like something you would hear in primary school) Its had 3 years, it hast worked or added anything to the game, time for change. tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1351 - 05/10/2016 11:00:39 1922741 Link 0 |
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In one sentence you seem to be suggesting the black card isn't really a punishment because a substitute can be brought on. In the next line you are saying players are diving to get their opponents black carded! Why are they bothering if it makes no difference?
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/10/2016 11:11:00 1922746 Link 0 |
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Yeah its a valid point, but im not saying its not a punishment. Im saying you can differentiate in my opinion and try to just punish a player in what is a team game. To coin a phrase players will "still take one for the team" however what we have at the moment is players still taking one for the team and being rewarded by being allowed to bring a substitute. Look at Paddy Andrews coming in the drawn match as "punishment" for a cynical foul, Dublin gained an advantage from it, would they have had the same advantage if down to 14 men for 10 minutes? In the game there are battles against the man your marking, your trying to get the better of him, it stands to reason that people look on it as a personal battle and will use opportunites to get the better of their direct opponents. I remember from my own playing days you got a sense of satisfaction from seeing your direct opponent subbed, now we are giving even more opportunity for that to happen. tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1351 - 05/10/2016 11:44:49 1922762 Link 0 |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/4203723.stm gohome (USA) - Posts: 20 - 05/10/2016 12:20:12 1922791 Link 1 |
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Interesting that you mention Paddy Andrews because the man he replaced, James McCarthy, has this week said he wants the sin bin to replace the black card as he feels he was too heavily punished by having to sit out most of that drawn game. That suggests to me that if he had his time back that was one he wouldn't take for the team again, though he might if the punishment was just 10 minutes on the line. The sin bin in other sports often leads to deliberately time wasting so the player misses minimal playing time, that's one of the benefits of the black card.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/10/2016 13:34:13 1922829 Link 0 |
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the primary purpose of the black card was to stamp out deliberate drag downs on attacking players. Its clear that players are still willing to take the black card on the chin for the good of their team in the later stages of games, so nothing has really changed on that front, just confusion added to an already difficult duty of a referee. If there was an automatic penalty awarded for a deliberate drag down, I don't think as many players would do it as the penalty would directly impact the game. However, no doubt we'd have the same debates on here every week about what is and what isn't deliberate. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 05/10/2016 14:06:08 1922850 Link 0 |
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But thats my point. James Mc Carthy was too heavily punished whereas his team wasnt punished in the least, in fact it gained from it. What Mc Carthy done was innocuous and he will do it again. If Mc Carthy came back on and did the same again he would receive a red, whereas under the current rule the sub that came on for him can do the same again And our games already have time wasting, have you seen the stats for the time wasted on the pitch. The black card was brought in to eradicate fouls which it has failed to do, it has failed to adequately punish the crime in a team game where the emphasis it seems is to not have the team suffer. And your right James Mc Carthy has come out against it and wants a sin bin instead of this farcical rule, him and dozens of others have all come out saying it, those who play and are involved in the games themselves. I dont here many players defending it these days and you know an argument is being lost when the only defence the likes of Mc Gee can come out with is to pathetically attack Jim Mc Guinness and his record of just winning one all ireland. tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1351 - 05/10/2016 15:43:23 1922905 Link 0 |
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I have had this conversation with some of the people behind the concept of the black card and the punishment they devised and oddly enough it wasn't pulled from the trees. They did surveys of different players views to punishment and at the individual level missing the entire or most part of the game acted as the biggest deterrent. Now the only flaw in that is say the last quarter of the game where it is that may no longer be an issue but goes back to how this is changing the way in which players have to prepare for the game. Few players can practice one thing in training and be completely different on the pitch and likewise different at different times of the game. You will get lads coming on here and saying of course they do but really do they? did Lee Keegan? when you think of the permutations that have to go into that decision - time during the game, how many subs have been brought on, what cover is left on the subs bench for my position, who am I marking and do I think the lad on the line would be better than me. As a player you never believe that the team will be the same without you on the pitch, if you don't then just take yourself off and give the lad who wants your place the chance to get it. There is a lot of people against it without even thinking about it - if left in place and managed correctly it will have a lasting impact on how the game is played for the better. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 05/10/2016 15:43:54 1922906 Link 1 |
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Yes and they all got carded for it, nobody said that it would take fouling out of the game in a short space of time but if they only game a tick for those then imagine how many there would be in a game. The black card is the worst punishment the player can get a sin bin is not. In todays game all that would happen is that some teams would not have a forward left in the opposition half - sin bins work if there is loads of space to play the ball into. In case anyone hasn't noticed in todays game both sides could be down to 13 players and there still wouldn't be much space for the attacking team. Giving a free kick on the 20M line - sorry aside from the time wasting how is that punishment for the player who commits the foul when he is left on the pitch to atone for his sins - he could go on and be man of the match, personally I would take that all day as a punishment even over the yellow card.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 05/10/2016 15:53:24 1922910 Link 0 |
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sorry - I should have asked, your only argument for saying its not working is because referees still give black cards? if there was another one please let point it out. You do realise that yellow and red cards have been around for a lot longer and they still get given out.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 05/10/2016 16:05:18 1922918 Link 0 |
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One thing everyone will agree on is no matter what punishment is brought in people will not be happy, be it a sin bin, 21 yard free or the existing black card. The reality is it not the punishment that people are complaining about after the All Ireland's, its the lack of consistency. How come A got a card for a harmless (yet clear offence) and B got away with (or a yellow card) for a worse offence. The 6 assistance to the ref need to be given more power / responsibility in the awarding of frees / cards. If a umpire / linesman sees a clear foul as per the rule book then they put up their flag tell the ref and then (S)he takes the action as advised by the umpire / linesman. The ref would then state this in his / her match report, if necessary for clarity then maybe the umpires & linesmen should also submit a match report. If there were 7 reports been sent in on each game then it would give a better view of what was actually happening and it would also highlight the officials who aren't preforming. I think the black card should stay because the last thing any player whats to do is watch a match from the side line. I even know ex county footballs who hate going to games as they cant stand watching from the sideline even years after retiring. People suggesting a second ref seem to be forgetting that there is 7 pair of eyes on on the pitch at the minute so another ref wouldn't see that much more. By the way I think sledging should be a black card offence, umpires are often in a position to see this going on and they should be encouraged to take action against it but don't because of the abuse they leave themselves open to from players. In fact I think action should also be taken against James McCarthy for he reaction to the linesman after he was black carded in the first game. If you attend rugby games, even if a player doesn't agree with a decision they don't mouth off at the officials as they will be punished for such action. anto_meath (Meath) - Posts: 108 - 05/10/2016 16:34:31 1922934 Link 0 |
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Apart from how the black card is implemented by the officials my biggest issue with it is that the same punishment applies for any foul deemed to be a deliberate pull down, trip or block etc. Everyone remembers Sean Cavanagh's tackle on McManus and if that was to happen in a game today the offender would get a black card and could have no complaints. But how is an offence such as James McCarthy's block (3rd man tackle) in the drawn game v Mayo given the same level of punishment as the Cavanagh type foul? Yes, the McCarthy one is a black card by the letter of the law but in reality it was a nothing incident and didn't prevent a clear scoring opportunity as the other type of foul I'm referring to did. In fact a black card for a deliberate drag down or trip to stop a clear goal scoring opportunity isn't sufficient punishment IMO and I would make the following suggestion regarding the black card/sin bin. Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 05/10/2016 16:38:07 1922936 Link 0 |
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The sin bin wouldn't be perfect either and it has been trialed and it was a bit rubbish. some day a player will get sin binned harshly and his man will score a crucial goal in the meantime and we'll be back to what we're chatting about now. I've been thinking about it and perhaps with the introduction of a TMO, They (together) would be able to make a calm decision on what the punishment should be, and as someone else said loosen the reigns a wee bit on the definition of a black card. theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 05/10/2016 17:16:52 1922954 Link 0 |
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For those who say that the black card hasn't stopped the type of fouling it was supposed to, here is a link to highlights from the 2013 Mayo Dublin All-Ireland link From 14 minutes on in the video the game is largely chaos, started off by Kevin McMenamins rugby tackle. These type incidents are now in the main a thing of the past thanks to the black card. Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/10/2016 19:06:21 1922999 Link 1 |
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The black card rule would mean that Cooper would have to go because of a hand trip. Seems silly but a black card offense. Even with replays keegans would still be down to opinion of TMO. Did Keegan pull Connolly down? Not as clear-cut a decision even with slo Mo replays. Small would have got a black earlier and if not a black then he would have been done for attempted strike before HT. Then even the penalty and resultant black card would be looked at by TMO. Won't all be as clear as initially thought as the TMO may decide that Hennelly got a hand to the ball. Then there's the likes of McLoughlin and Brogan who both committed black card offenses. TMO is all good. Is it only available on televised games or just in Croker Park. Would be in favour of a TMO but have to think of the practicalities. No matter what you have there'll be plenty of complaints. Implementing the sin bin in club games would be almost impossible. We should be careful what we wish for.
Weary (None) - Posts: 249 - 05/10/2016 19:38:40 1923005 Link 1 |