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I think you will end up with dead rubber games in the group stages which are of no benefit to anyone.
County players playing up to 10 games to win an All Ireland is mad in an "amateur sport".
No major advantage in wining a provincial title, in reality about 20 teams the best they can hope for is wining a provincial. How about if a county won their league final (or next placed if winners still in the All Ireland series) be entered back in to a play off against the winners of the back door. Using this year as an example Louth with Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon (as Clare, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin & Donegal are still in this years competition) would entered back in to play Mayo, Donegal, Tipperary & Clare. it would create an extra round of games and give the weaker counties an incentive in the league and possibly help them develop. Teams like Dublin, Mayo and Kerry done need more games to develop. Tipperary, Clare, Louth, Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon would all bring a decent crowd to a game in Croke Park and the games would be competitive.
anto_meath (Meath) - Posts:27 - 04/08/2016 14:57:21This proposal is better than what currently exists but could still be very much improved.
Why is the odd dead rubber a problem? And winning 10 games to win an all Ireland isn't a bad thing or that strange. Its the counties main competition of the year. To have to win only 10 games in a principal competition of the year is very low compared to a lot of sports.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/08/2016 16:50:48
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Replying To KYTitletown: "As a Kerry fan I'd be very much in favour of this option than the current system.
This season has been very unsatisfying as we have had 3 games in a 19 week period (since the League Final) we've had a few County Championship games in between but it is hard to schedule too many games with the uncertainty of replays, how long Kerry will be in the Championship etc
As long as the All Ireland Final is brought forward by 3/4 weeks to compensate the additional games then I cant see how Kerry hosting Mayo, Tyrone hosting Dublin, Tipperary hosting Donegal in meaningful games when the weather is good is a bad thing. I would scrap League Finals and start championship in Mid April to help facilitate this
People say that Tipp wouldn't have made semi final with this ssytem, I disagree I think 3 top quality games would bring them on even more and they'd be more than good enough to win 2 out of 3. And the 'weaker counties' can't look at Tipperary and say we can't emulate them." As long as the All Ireland Final is brought forward by 3/4 weeks to compensate the additional games then I cant see how Kerry hosting Mayo, Tyrone hosting Dublin, Tipperary hosting Donegal in meaningful games when the weather is good is a bad thing. I would scrap League Finals and start championship in Mid April to help facilitate this
For me this is the key.
Start championship sooner. Play it off quicker. More time for club.
Fewer games available for tv is the problem with this. Worries over revenue the real concerns here.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 04/08/2016 16:55:35
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Replying To 222: "Its alright for yous kerry boys an easy fixture against a Munster minnow and into the last 12." For instance Tipperary check that out with Galway, Derry...Cavan Fermanagh or even Clare check that out with Roscommon Sligo and Kildare then there is always Cork who have won is it 7 Senor all Irelands that's as many as Tyrone Armagh Donegal and Monaghan combined and if you are still in a 'checking mood' check out how many Junior U21 and Minor titles Cork has won then ask yourself where are the minnows to be found ?! Messi might say " no hay mas ciego que el que no quiere ver" no one as blind as the one who does not want to see
37sowhat (Sligo) - Posts: 752 - 04/08/2016 17:17:58
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Replying To 37sowhat: "For instance Tipperary check that out with Galway, Derry...Cavan Fermanagh or even Clare check that out with Roscommon Sligo and Kildare then there is always Cork who have won is it 7 Senor all Irelands that's as many as Tyrone Armagh Donegal and Monaghan combined and if you are still in a 'checking mood' check out how many Junior U21 and Minor titles Cork has won then ask yourself where are the minnows to be found ?! Messi might say " no hay mas ciego que el que no quiere ver" no one as blind as the one who does not want to see" Its a bit surprising for these boyos to keep going on about Munster..they must have missed the Clare and Tipp brilliant wins this year. Minnows you say!!
KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 04/08/2016 17:43:37
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "I think you will end up with dead rubber games in the group stages which are of no benefit to anyone.
County players playing up to 10 games to win an All Ireland is mad in an "amateur sport".
No major advantage in wining a provincial title, in reality about 20 teams the best they can hope for is wining a provincial. How about if a county won their league final (or next placed if winners still in the All Ireland series) be entered back in to a play off against the winners of the back door. Using this year as an example Louth with Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon (as Clare, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin & Donegal are still in this years competition) would entered back in to play Mayo, Donegal, Tipperary & Clare. it would create an extra round of games and give the weaker counties an incentive in the league and possibly help them develop. Teams like Dublin, Mayo and Kerry done need more games to develop. Tipperary, Clare, Louth, Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon would all bring a decent crowd to a game in Croke Park and the games would be competitive.
anto_meath (Meath) - Posts:27 - 04/08/2016 14:57:21This proposal is better than what currently exists but could still be very much improved.
Why is the odd dead rubber a problem? And winning 10 games to win an all Ireland isn't a bad thing or that strange. Its the counties main competition of the year. To have to win only 10 games in a principal competition of the year is very low compared to a lot of sports." Dead rubbers aren't great for the GAA. The players would probably rather go back to playing for their club than play in a dead rubber. It's a little unfair that a team can go up against another team with nothing to play for with qualification up for grabs. Although this does exist in other sports.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 04/08/2016 17:57:07
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Replying To KY4SAM2015: "Its a bit surprising for these boyos to keep going on about Munster..they must have missed the Clare and Tipp brilliant wins this year. Minnows you say!!" For instance do they know that Tipperary has 4 All Irelnnd Senior Fotball titles that is one more than Tyrone and twice as many as Donegal of course you can see the hands of John Evans and Liam Kerins shining through in the present crop.
37sowhat (Sligo) - Posts: 752 - 04/08/2016 18:06:24
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Can't see any problem with losing a game and still being top. The alternative is a knock out where the season for half the teams is over after 1 game. That has been tried.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 04/08/2016 18:31:04
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They should get rid of the provincials, it's only auld fashioned cradais who want them kept.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 04/08/2016 18:31:34
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Ah its a joke. If you drawn in preliminary round in ulster youd have to win 6/7 games to get to these groups i.e. ulster prelim ulster qf . Lose ulster sf. Then win 4 back door games. Its still totally ineqitable. Id go with this system if ulster and leinster teams were given a fair shot.
Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 767 - 04/08/2016 18:34:08
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Replying To 37sowhat: "For instance Tipperary check that out with Galway, Derry...Cavan Fermanagh or even Clare check that out with Roscommon Sligo and Kildare then there is always Cork who have won is it 7 Senor all Irelands that's as many as Tyrone Armagh Donegal and Monaghan combined and if you are still in a 'checking mood' check out how many Junior U21 and Minor titles Cork has won then ask yourself where are the minnows to be found ?! Messi might say " no hay mas ciego que el que no quiere ver" no one as blind as the one who does not want to see" First of all cork are not a minnow, but are well behind kerry in current form. Clare and Tipp are still minnows IMO. Clare had a good season, but were utterly miles behind kerry both days, beaten before a ball was kicked. Laois was a big scalp but they beat your own county also a division 3 team and a hopeless roscommon team 6 days after they were hammered by galway. I still believe if roscommon would have beaten clare if they had any system up front.
Tipp have been making great strides and fair play to them, derry and cork were big scalps. The Galway game was great on the eye but Galway were abject, no one can deny that. I also fully expect mayo or tyrone to beat Tipp easily when they meet one of them. I have seen Tipp against Kerry twice: this year and last and also tyrone last year where they lost easily. They also finished in the bottom half of divsion 3 in 2016. They have made good strides but will we see this on a regular basis?
Both clare and tipp have had great years, full credit this needs to be replicated year in year out to start challenging kerry in munster. We have seen these fairlytales run before, wexford 2008, fermanagh 2004, limerick 2011, sligo 2002, antrim 2009 and they have really been poor in the following championships.
The jury for me is still out on clare and tipp. Munster is still easy pickings for kerry and will be for foreseeable future until these teams start competing on a year in year out basis
222 (UK) - Posts: 695 - 04/08/2016 19:21:56
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This proposal is far from perfect, however it just may be a step on the road to a sensible structure that starts with a league/round robin stage followed by knock out football.
Going from knockout to league than back to knock out feels a bit clumsy to me. As others have said, it will guarantee more games for the stronger counties, when perhaps the objective should be more games for other counties. The "problem" of course remains the provincial championships which are far from a level playing field.
But in the GAA progress is phased, so for now, in recognition that we're moving in the right direction, let's give it go and learn from it.
Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 05/08/2016 09:50:41
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They should get rid of the provincials, it's only auld fashioned cradais who want them kept.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts:505 - 04/08/2016 18:31:34 The provincial championships shouldn't be got rid of. Just look at what it means for those counties that don't win them that often etc and removing them means less chances of success for all counties. Why would that be good.
The provincial championships should be kept but their role in the road to Sam should be changed
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/08/2016 10:56:33
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Replying To Knoxboya: "This proposal is far from perfect, however it just may be a step on the road to a sensible structure that starts with a league/round robin stage followed by knock out football.
Going from knockout to league than back to knock out feels a bit clumsy to me. As others have said, it will guarantee more games for the stronger counties, when perhaps the objective should be more games for other counties. The "problem" of course remains the provincial championships which are far from a level playing field.
But in the GAA progress is phased, so for now, in recognition that we're moving in the right direction, let's give it go and learn from it." Agree with this, it's far form perfect but we have to give it a go. If the GAA put a proposal to congress to get rid of the provincial system it would just get defeated, we all know this.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 05/08/2016 11:09:08
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "They should get rid of the provincials, it's only auld fashioned cradais who want them kept.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts:505 - 04/08/2016 18:31:34 The provincial championships shouldn't be got rid of. Just look at what it means for those counties that don't win them that often etc and removing them means less chances of success for all counties. Why would that be good.
The provincial championships should be kept but their role in the road to Sam should be changed" Play the provincials off in May, finalists in each province get top seeding for a champions league style format. There would still be an incentive in these competitions. Rest of seeding could be based on league positions. Champions league style format would be really intriguing, last 16, last 8, semis in croker and final. Last 16 and Last 8 could be home games for teams drawn first. If this is a case where a team is drawn out second two years in a row, they get home advantage. I think this would be an ideal competition.
This year a group could consist of tipp, derry, sligo and wexford. Another group, tyrone, meath, longford, antrim. Tyrone might win the group but there would be some battle for second there. Even a group like kerry, armagh, kildare and offaly. Of course there would be soft groups but sure isnt' there in the champions league as well.
Also, scrap league finals, top two get promoted and the first place team gets the trophy. Perhaps a play off final in division 1. Pre season tournaments' should also be scrapped.
222 (UK) - Posts: 695 - 05/08/2016 11:50:44
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AfricanGael (UK)
"They should get rid of the provincials, it's only auld fashioned cradais who want them kept.
ormondbannerman
The provincial championships shouldn't be got rid of. Just look at what it means for those counties that don't win them that often etc and removing them means less chances of success for all counties. Why would that be good.
The provincial championships should be kept but their role in the road to Sam should be changed"
AfricanGael (UK)
Play the provincials off in May, finalists in each province get top seeding for a champions league style format. There would still be an incentive in these competitions. Rest of seeding could be based on league positions. Champions league style format would be really intriguing, last 16, last 8, semis in croker and final. Last 16 and Last 8 could be home games for teams drawn first. If this is a case where a team is drawn out second two years in a row, they get home advantage. I think this would be an ideal competition.
This year a group could consist of tipp, derry, sligo and wexford. Another group, tyrone, meath, longford, antrim. Tyrone might win the group but there would be some battle for second there. Even a group like kerry, armagh, kildare and offaly. Of course there would be soft groups but sure isnt' there in the champions league as well.
Also, scrap league finals, top two get promoted and the first place team gets the trophy. Perhaps a play off final in division 1. Pre season tournaments' should also be scrapped.
222 (UK) - Posts:371 - 05/08/2016 11:50:44When you say champions league format do you want 6 games per group and if so how do you play the games? 3 home/3away or 2 home/2away/2neutral or how exactly?
Why scrap league finals?
Why scrap pre season tournaments? What would you have counties play prior to the leagues etc then if not in these competitions?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/08/2016 21:36:08
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32 teams four teams of 8. League finals in 2,3,4 are irrelevant teams already promoted, please dont give me this excuse it allows teams a chance to play in croker. Lower hurling counties dont get this chance in their leagues. Pre season competitions. They serve nothing, give this time to the colleges and also play the club championship off before x mas .
222 (UK) - Posts: 695 - 05/08/2016 22:25:24
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Replying To Green_Gold: "Agree with this, it's far form perfect but we have to give it a go. If the GAA put a proposal to congress to get rid of the provincial system it would just get defeated, we all know this." Exactly. It's a start. If a group stage can't work at the top it won't work anywhere.
A Clare selector is suggesting a 12 team group stage. I think eventually they'll end up with agreement on 4 groups of 4.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 05/08/2016 22:36:47
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To ormondbannerman: "I think you will end up with dead rubber games in the group stages which are of no benefit to anyone.
County players playing up to 10 games to win an All Ireland is mad in an "amateur sport".
No major advantage in wining a provincial title, in reality about 20 teams the best they can hope for is wining a provincial. How about if a county won their league final (or next placed if winners still in the All Ireland series) be entered back in to a play off against the winners of the back door. Using this year as an example Louth with Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon (as Clare, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin & Donegal are still in this years competition) would entered back in to play Mayo, Donegal, Tipperary & Clare. it would create an extra round of games and give the weaker counties an incentive in the league and possibly help them develop. Teams like Dublin, Mayo and Kerry done need more games to develop. Tipperary, Clare, Louth, Cavan, Kildare & Roscommon would all bring a decent crowd to a game in Croke Park and the games would be competitive.
anto_meath (Meath) - Posts:27 - 04/08/2016 14:57:21This proposal is better than what currently exists but could still be very much improved.
Why is the odd dead rubber a problem? And winning 10 games to win an all Ireland isn't a bad thing or that strange. Its the counties main competition of the year. To have to win only 10 games in a principal competition of the year is very low compared to a lot of sports." Dead rubbers aren't great for the GAA. The players would probably rather go back to playing for their club than play in a dead rubber. It's a little unfair that a team can go up against another team with nothing to play for with qualification up for grabs. Although this does exist in other sports."
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2618 - 10/08/2016 17:30:05
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