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Replying To legendzxix: "I've always been realistic that changes need to be a step from the current setup. I think it'll eventually end as 4 groups of 4:
* Qualifier Round 1 will be held on the same weekends as Provincial semi-finals.
* Qualifier Round 2 will be held on the same weekends as Provincial finals.
* The 8 provincial finalists and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners will enter 4 groups of 4.
* Winning the provincial title will be offered the carrot of all their 3 group games at home.
* All others will have 1 home game each.
The 2 groups of 4 replacing the quarter-finals is a stepping stone." Yeah I agree.
I think there are also a couple of key things being snuck into these proposals.
They're edging their way to changing the provincial championship schedules.
The Ulster championship is to play 2 games in its first week. I think the idea behind this is to eventually get us to a point where the provincials get run off over 7 weeks. Which I think would be much better for everyone.
Having the semi-finals on one weekend I like also.
Getting rid of replays.
It's all about slowly finishing the season earlier which will eventually help club football.
I think the format change is window dressing to get through some important motions.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/08/2016 13:06:24
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah I agree.
I think there are also a couple of key things being snuck into these proposals.
They're edging their way to changing the provincial championship schedules.
The Ulster championship is to play 2 games in its first week. I think the idea behind this is to eventually get us to a point where the provincials get run off over 7 weeks. Which I think would be much better for everyone.
Having the semi-finals on one weekend I like also.
Getting rid of replays.
It's all about slowly finishing the season earlier which will eventually help club football.
I think the format change is window dressing to get through some important motions." There's an argument for the Kelly/McGuinness idea if it does expand to 4 groups of 4. Should they use 2 qualifying rounds for 8 qualifiers outside of the provincial finalists? Should they use league placing as suggested by Kelly/McGuinness to determine the 8 qualifiers outside of the provincial finalists?
The Kelly/McGuinness idea was based on a properly marketed and supported second championship that would guarantee the winner a place in the top 16 of the following year. With the Kelly/McGuinness option, I would ask should both the All-Ireland winner and second championship winner both be guaranteed a top 16 place? It could for arguments sake lead to a situation where the top 16 at the provincial final stage has 10 places already taken by 8 provincial finalists and two championship winners of the year before, should the best 12 based on league placing enter a play-off round for the remaining 6 places or just straight the best 6 based on league placing? This is where the Kelly/McGuinness idea might get convoluted.
2 qualifying rounds might work best. Noone is shut out. The qualifying rounds could be seeded based on league placing. In a completely off the park wild suggestion, should all Qualifier Round 1 losers enter a second tier championship for the rest of the summer. Currently the appetite was low. A second tier could involve the 8 playing off over 3 knockout rounds with the winner qualifying for a final in New York or Boston. The idea would be a fully paid trip to the states. New York, Boston and/or any other team if possible could contest the other side of the draw stateside. This could replace Connaught teams going stateside.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 06/08/2016 13:35:45
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Replying To legendzxix: "There's an argument for the Kelly/McGuinness idea if it does expand to 4 groups of 4. Should they use 2 qualifying rounds for 8 qualifiers outside of the provincial finalists? Should they use league placing as suggested by Kelly/McGuinness to determine the 8 qualifiers outside of the provincial finalists?
The Kelly/McGuinness idea was based on a properly marketed and supported second championship that would guarantee the winner a place in the top 16 of the following year. With the Kelly/McGuinness option, I would ask should both the All-Ireland winner and second championship winner both be guaranteed a top 16 place? It could for arguments sake lead to a situation where the top 16 at the provincial final stage has 10 places already taken by 8 provincial finalists and two championship winners of the year before, should the best 12 based on league placing enter a play-off round for the remaining 6 places or just straight the best 6 based on league placing? This is where the Kelly/McGuinness idea might get convoluted.
2 qualifying rounds might work best. Noone is shut out. The qualifying rounds could be seeded based on league placing. In a completely off the park wild suggestion, should all Qualifier Round 1 losers enter a second tier championship for the rest of the summer. Currently the appetite was low. A second tier could involve the 8 playing off over 3 knockout rounds with the winner qualifying for a final in New York or Boston. The idea would be a fully paid trip to the states. New York, Boston and/or any other team if possible could contest the other side of the draw stateside. This could replace Connaught teams going stateside." For me I think a good format would have a second tier All Ireland which qualifies you for the All Ireland series for that year.
I also think 3 divisions would work.
So you have 12 teams in division 1.
10 teams each in division 2 and 3.
Division 2 and 3 have a second tier All Ireland.
Division 2 teams automatically qualify, top 6 in division 3 also qualify. Makes division 3 more exciting, finishing in the bottom 4 knocks you out.
The last 4 rounds of division 1 are played alongside the second tier competition and in parallel to the provincial championships.
Qualifying for the All Ireland series incorporates the top 10 in division 1, second tier champion and all provincial champions.
You'll have between 11 and 15 teams qualifying depending on how many repeats you get from the provincial championships.
Byes are given to provincial champions who also qualify through the league/second tier championship.
1 more bye is needed and that is given to the highest placed non-provincial champion in division 1.
The leagues become much more important in the season which is what people want.
More games between top teams at the height of the summer.
The second tier championship gives an important competition for counties to aim for.
The winner will be 4 rounds from All Ireland glory that season. They also get a division 1 place for the following season.
Division 1 and the provincial championships can also be used for seeding.
Provincial champions can't meet before semi-finals.
Top 4 teams in the league can't meet until the semifinals.
Top 2 in the league can't meet until the final.
League champion guaranteed a place in All Ireland quarter-finals.
More teams playing division 1 football.
Winning provincial championship earns either a place for a team not already qualified or a bye for a team that has already qualified. So there's still a significant meaning to the provincial championships.
Only the top 10 in division 1 qualify for the All Ireland series. A team struggling still can't rest on their laurels and needs to pull it together.
It has more games between the big teams throughout the summer and a more marketable competition for those outside division 1.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/08/2016 15:09:31
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Using next season as an example:
12 Feb League round 1
19 Feb league round 2
26 Feb league round 3
5 Mar break week
12 Mar league round 4
19 Mar league round 5
26 Mar division 2 and 3 round 6, division 1 break week
2 Apr division 1 round 6, division 2 and 3 break week
9 Apr league round 7
16 Apr division 1 break week (space for club championship), division 2 and 3 round 8
23 Apr division 1 break week, division 2 and 3 round 9
30 Apr provincial championships
7 May provincial championships
14 May division 1 round 8, B championship last 16
21 May provincial championships
28 May provincial championships
4 Jun division 1 round 9, B championship quarterfinals (Jun bank holiday big weekend)
11 Jun provincial championships
18 Jun provincial championships
25 Jun division 1 round 10, B championship semifinals
2 Jul provincial championships
9 Jul provincial championships
16 Jul division 1 round 11, B championship final
23 Jul provincial championships
30 Jul provincial championships
6 Aug All Ireland round 1
13 Aug All Ireland quarter finals
20 Aug Hurling semifinals
27 Aug All Ireland semifinals
3 Sep Hurling final
10 Sep Football final
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/08/2016 15:39:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "For me I think a good format would have a second tier All Ireland which qualifies you for the All Ireland series for that year.
I also think 3 divisions would work.
So you have 12 teams in division 1.
10 teams each in division 2 and 3.
Division 2 and 3 have a second tier All Ireland.
Division 2 teams automatically qualify, top 6 in division 3 also qualify. Makes division 3 more exciting, finishing in the bottom 4 knocks you out.
The last 4 rounds of division 1 are played alongside the second tier competition and in parallel to the provincial championships.
Qualifying for the All Ireland series incorporates the top 10 in division 1, second tier champion and all provincial champions.
You'll have between 11 and 15 teams qualifying depending on how many repeats you get from the provincial championships.
Byes are given to provincial champions who also qualify through the league/second tier championship.
1 more bye is needed and that is given to the highest placed non-provincial champion in division 1.
The leagues become much more important in the season which is what people want.
More games between top teams at the height of the summer.
The second tier championship gives an important competition for counties to aim for.
The winner will be 4 rounds from All Ireland glory that season. They also get a division 1 place for the following season.
Division 1 and the provincial championships can also be used for seeding.
Provincial champions can't meet before semi-finals.
Top 4 teams in the league can't meet until the semifinals.
Top 2 in the league can't meet until the final.
League champion guaranteed a place in All Ireland quarter-finals.
More teams playing division 1 football.
Winning provincial championship earns either a place for a team not already qualified or a bye for a team that has already qualified. So there's still a significant meaning to the provincial championships.
Only the top 10 in division 1 qualify for the All Ireland series. A team struggling still can't rest on their laurels and needs to pull it together.
It has more games between the big teams throughout the summer and a more marketable competition for those outside division 1." A lot of thought has been put into that. Possibly the league's only influence on championship should be seeding for the qualifiers draws. Provincial championships have different seeding systems. Seeding qualifiers based on league would offer an equal seeding for all.
I've pondered a second tier championship offering a route back to the main championship in the same year. It was considered when the B Championship motion was being put together. It was felt that there was an unfairness in B winners having an easier route to a later round.
Christy Ring finalists could enter the hurling 1st round because it's played so early.
Any second tier football championship linked to the top championship of the same year will have to see the winners enter the first round. It's the reason the GAA opted for guaranteed qualifier place in the following year.
In the current setup you could enter the eight provincial 1st round losers into a tier II championship. The winner however would have to playoff against a non-provincial finalist for a place in the 1st qualifier round. The convoluted direction and timescale required is why it was a non-runner.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 06/08/2016 15:56:46
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Three Strikes and You're In !
A thrice beaten Qualifier can potentially knockout two undefeated Prov Champs in the AI SF and Final.
I'd still support this as a potential steppind stone to great change.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 06/08/2016 19:17:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "A lot of thought has been put into that. Possibly the league's only influence on championship should be seeding for the qualifiers draws. Provincial championships have different seeding systems. Seeding qualifiers based on league would offer an equal seeding for all.
I've pondered a second tier championship offering a route back to the main championship in the same year. It was considered when the B Championship motion was being put together. It was felt that there was an unfairness in B winners having an easier route to a later round.
Christy Ring finalists could enter the hurling 1st round because it's played so early.
Any second tier football championship linked to the top championship of the same year will have to see the winners enter the first round. It's the reason the GAA opted for guaranteed qualifier place in the following year.
In the current setup you could enter the eight provincial 1st round losers into a tier II championship. The winner however would have to playoff against a non-provincial finalist for a place in the 1st qualifier round. The convoluted direction and timescale required is why it was a non-runner." There's no magic bullet.
Every format has flaws.
I think the main thing when coming up with potential formats are:
Provincials have to stay, as part of the main championship with a proper reward given to the provincial winners. There should be limited interference as to how they are allowed to be run by the provincial council.
All teams should have 2 avenues allowing them to qualify.
Dead rubbers need to be kept to a minimum, players would rather go back to their clubs rather than play in a dead rubber.
There needs to be provisions in place so that club championship can be played.
Other things I try to incorporate:
Competitions should be something that if I were good enough, I'd like to play in rather than just stick with playing with the club or go off to the states.
Teams shouldn't be idle for more than 3 or 4 weeks other than if it is early in the season and it is a break for club football.
GAA should try to arrange big weekends of action for bank holidays. Any strategy involving improving attendances should look at trying to make the GAA a great family day out, when parents and children are around together.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/08/2016 20:03:24
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Replying To Whammo86: "There's no magic bullet.
Every format has flaws.
I think the main thing when coming up with potential formats are:
Provincials have to stay, as part of the main championship with a proper reward given to the provincial winners. There should be limited interference as to how they are allowed to be run by the provincial council.
All teams should have 2 avenues allowing them to qualify.
Dead rubbers need to be kept to a minimum, players would rather go back to their clubs rather than play in a dead rubber.
There needs to be provisions in place so that club championship can be played.
Other things I try to incorporate:
Competitions should be something that if I were good enough, I'd like to play in rather than just stick with playing with the club or go off to the states.
Teams shouldn't be idle for more than 3 or 4 weeks other than if it is early in the season and it is a break for club football.
GAA should try to arrange big weekends of action for bank holidays. Any strategy involving improving attendances should look at trying to make the GAA a great family day out, when parents and children are around together." I would question the use of bank holiday weekends for games. Many people head away or are enjoying festivals. Possibly these weekends should be free for club championships. It's debatable and would have to be discussed by those involved.
I think using the league beyond seeding in the championship might be a step too far. We're still speaking about an amateur game. Use for seeding will give the league a subtle added edge. Some managers might stop saying it's only the league if they are hindering a better qualifier draw. Sure looks it's all debatable.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 06/08/2016 22:26:05
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i would question the use of bank holiday weekends for games. Many people head away or are enjoying festivals. Possibly these weekends should be free for club championships. It's debatable and would have to be discussed by those involved.
I think using the league beyond seeding in the championship might be a step too far. We're still speaking about an amateur game. Use for seeding will give the league a subtle added edge. Some managers might stop saying it's only the league if they are hindering a better qualifier draw. Sure looks it's all debatable.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4875 - 06/08/2016 22:26:05Bank Holiday weekends are some of the best weekends for games. There is more people who can go to games potentially and what does the game being "amateur" have to do with using the league as seeding. I guess you are only saying that as the current championship format suits your county especially considering you want little to know real change to the championship structure,
Using the league for seeding the championship helps even out the championship if you don't change the whole thing and put in real proper fair format.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/08/2016 11:05:19
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "i would question the use of bank holiday weekends for games. Many people head away or are enjoying festivals. Possibly these weekends should be free for club championships. It's debatable and would have to be discussed by those involved.
I think using the league beyond seeding in the championship might be a step too far. We're still speaking about an amateur game. Use for seeding will give the league a subtle added edge. Some managers might stop saying it's only the league if they are hindering a better qualifier draw. Sure looks it's all debatable.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4875 - 06/08/2016 22:26:05Bank Holiday weekends are some of the best weekends for games. There is more people who can go to games potentially and what does the game being "amateur" have to do with using the league as seeding. I guess you are only saying that as the current championship format suits your county especially considering you want little to know real change to the championship structure,
Using the league for seeding the championship helps even out the championship if you don't change the whole thing and put in real proper fair format." Division 4 counties didn't want the league to determine their championship status. I enjoy the league for what it is. I would like to see it given the extra carrot of seeding qualifier draws. If you have a league, it seems a fair seeding system and a light encouragement to treat it with more respect. One advantage I would see is managers no longer being able to throw out the line it's only the league.
From all the options I have seen, I favour two qualifying rounds seeded based on league. I favour 4 groups of 4 with provincial winners having all their games at home and 1 home game each for the rest.
I think all Qualifier 1 losers should enter a second championship that sees 1 team after 3 knockout rounds head across to the states for a final against the best team that side of the Atlantic.
An example from this year would be;
Round 1:
Armagh v Louth
Wicklow v Waterford
Down v Antrim
London v Wexford
Quarter-finals:
Armagh v Wicklow
Down v Wexford
Semi-finals:
Armagh v Down
New York v Boston
Final:
New York v Down
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 07/08/2016 11:46:56
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Replying To legendzxix: " Replying To ormondbannerman: "i would question the use of bank holiday weekends for games. Many people head away or are enjoying festivals. Possibly these weekends should be free for club championships. It's debatable and would have to be discussed by those involved.
I think using the league beyond seeding in the championship might be a step too far. We're still speaking about an amateur game. Use for seeding will give the league a subtle added edge. Some managers might stop saying it's only the league if they are hindering a better qualifier draw. Sure looks it's all debatable.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4875 - 06/08/2016 22:26:05Bank Holiday weekends are some of the best weekends for games. There is more people who can go to games potentially and what does the game being "amateur" have to do with using the league as seeding. I guess you are only saying that as the current championship format suits your county especially considering you want little to know real change to the championship structure,
Using the league for seeding the championship helps even out the championship if you don't change the whole thing and put in real proper fair format." Division 4 counties didn't want the league to determine their championship status. I enjoy the league for what it is. I would like to see it given the extra carrot of seeding qualifier draws. If you have a league, it seems a fair seeding system and a light encouragement to treat it with more respect. One advantage I would see is managers no longer being able to throw out the line it's only the league. From all the options I have seen, I favour two qualifying rounds seeded based on league. I favour 4 groups of 4 with provincial winners having all their games at home and 1 home game each for the rest. I think all Qualifier 1 losers should enter a second championship that sees 1 team after 3 knockout rounds head across to the states for a final against the best team that side of the Atlantic. An example from this year would be; Round 1: Armagh v Louth Wicklow v Waterford Down v Antrim London v Wexford Quarter-finals: Armagh v Wicklow Down v Wexford Semi-finals: Armagh v Down New York v Boston Final: New York v Down"
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 07/08/2016 12:07:16
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How will that help improve the standards of so-called weaker counties ?
GreenandRed (Mayo)
Fair question. Qualifier Round 1 losers will have lost 2 games out of 2 or 3. They'll get a third game. An opportunity to rescue something from the summer and their winter's work. Some might not have the experience of playing together beyond June too often. It's experience that can stand to them in the following championships. If they can't improve to win the second championship, how are they going to improve to win their provincial championship or make the final 16? It's simply about offering a platform. If used in the right way, it can benefit a team. It's not excluding anyone from the main championship. It's simply offering a chance to improve for those falling at the first qualifier hurdle.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 07/08/2016 12:23:37
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