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I agree with bdbuddah's proposal and don't think this group stage replacing qf's will help weaker counties, or even most div 2 sides. This will almost certainly stop weaker counties from having one fantastic season and getting to the semis like Fermanagh and Wexford and almost ensure a constant semi final lineup of 4 of Dublin/Kerry/Mayo/Tyrone/Donegal/Cork.
eoghan6688 (Galway) - Posts: 154 - 04/08/2016 20:41:13
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Replying To as_ky: "I do think it would be a good idea as well if 8 teams made up of the four losers from round 3 and four losers from round 4 went into a shield competition! Would be good standard, this year you would have the likes of cork, monaghan, derry and roscommon in the competition, would help these teams improve and lengthen the summer! Also gives an achievable aim to some of the so called weaker counties" They wouldn't be arsed with it.
If your county can't win Sam you'll go to the states or play club.
Nobody cares who the best team to get knocked out in round 3 and 4 is.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 04/08/2016 21:09:37
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Replying To Darragh: "Replying To Darragh: "Only benefits the teams in the last 8 so will improve their quality but anyone outside the top 8 will fall further behind. It's a typical response from top brass in GAA who are not interested in the lower end of the scale and only in making more money for the Association. I can't see the other counties agreeing to this but the County Boards in weaker counties are doing a fantastic job of destroying the game so they will probably agree in return for some lovely magic beans"
Sounds like a very negative posting as the overall restructuring has to be good for all.
Up4it. (Tyrone) - Posts:154 - 04/08/2016 14:47:16 1895564
OK firstly it is a negative posting as I believe changes like this will split the association into A and B for good. I am from one of the weaker counties and the proposals flat out ignore them. 'Overally restructuring has to be good for all'.........don't think this is about anything else but making more money. The football at quarter final stage on is not in need of change, it's before that stage that the problem is. If Duffy was really for change he would try and improve the quality of football of the weaker teams by giving them more games" I simply can't see this being help full to the weaker counties at all, ah sure what's the use and all that.!!??
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2908 - 04/08/2016 21:16:00
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In a word - 'underwhelming' - although I'd approve in lieu of doing nothing. Also, no change there for the 24 teams not to make the group stage.
Reminds me of 1992 - Champions League started with two groups of four - first step away from the straight KO - and look where we are now.
I can see the GPA celebrating in about 20 years !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 04/08/2016 21:47:59
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Likes of Wicklow don't want a B champo - we are living in a dreamworld at the moment.
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 04/08/2016 21:55:59
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People are over reacting. It's no surprise that the GAA are taking a small step within current structures. They have to consider all stakeholders.
The All-Ireland series used to be 4 provincial champions. It expanded to 8 with the inclusion of 4 qualifiers.
It's the best chance any group stage has of being voted through congress. If it beds in it can create the environment and platform for an expansion to 16. Possibly provincial winners having 3 home games as provincial incentive and all others having 1 home game each. Those outside the top 16 will have to decide if a separate competition guaranteeing a top 16 is a viable option.
For now the proposed group format is a good start. Ireland featured in a 2 groups of 4 format in Euro '88. Two tournaments later it was 4 groups of 4. The GAA's announcement today can be a start and not the end.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 04/08/2016 22:09:20
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Kerry Galway Donegal Mayo
Kerry Dublin Donegal Tyrone
These would have been our groups the last 2 years and I have to say it's infinitely more interesting and exciting than what we got 2 one-sided games in front of small crowds at Croke Park. The chance to play a genuine big team outside of Munster in Killarney is very appealing, the Tyrone game in Killarney was a great occasion and I'm sure it would be in Omagh if we went there
My main problem with the document released today is that the AI Final is played way too late in the year, needs to come forward at least 3 weeks. Also pre-season cups have to be scrapped as well as League Finals which would help compartmaentalise the season
Re: the people who says it does nothing for the Weaker Counties - The only people who can help them are the Counties themselves. Now they should get extra funding from Croke Pk as an aid no doubt, but they have an opportunity to get to the Last 8 as well - just look at Clare and Tipp who did it off very small footballing bases. They even have the incentive of home Qualifiers against higher opposition. Would Clare have rather had 3 games vs Tipp Dublin and Tyrone this year (Imagine Clare vs Dublin in Ennis!) or a one-off game against a team they have played regularly for over a century?
Just look at the Kerry hurlers who worked extreemly hard to progress up the Ladder by winning games to reach Division 1 and Liam McC Cup we didn't sit on our hands we put our shoulder to the wheel and progressed step by step.
KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 04/08/2016 22:27:57
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Replying To Whammo86: "Why not 4 groups of 8. Top 4 into second round. You'd probably get 6-10 teams pretty nailed on to go through each year, after that other than say the weakest 5-8 counties everyone would harbour a chance of qualifying.
A second tier would really hurt the counties involved. You'd find more players deciding to concentrate on club football." The advantages of having tiered competition is you get more competitive games and avoid teams getting bad beatings. You also give more teams a better chance to win a competition. The disadvantage is you might make teams feel excluded and they lose interest.
Divisions 1A/1B and Divisions 2A/2B is to try to find balance between both. 4 groups of 8 might lead to many sided games. Maybe teams Players who most years suffer bad beatings might lose interest also.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1356 - 04/08/2016 22:54:28
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We need more big games between the top teams. We only get 4-5 big games a year as it is.
It doesn't do anything for the weaker county or address the biggest problem off all: the ridiculous amount of time it takes to run off the provincial championships (Roscommon ended up with a six day turnaround in July despite playing their first of five games at the start of May).
It's a good start though. It could be great if they shortened the provincials and limited the group winners to progressing to semis with the next two playing off against two teams who qualify from group stages involving weaker counties.
This could go as follows:
Junior A and B - qualifiers round one losers (8 teams)
Intermediate A, B C and D - qualifier round 2 - 3 and 4 losers (4 groups of 4)
Junior and intermediate champions play off for semi spot against best team in top eight groups.
This gives weaker counties something to play for in the summer.
Teams that do badly one year get bottom seeding in the following years provincial competition and less home matches in round robin
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1122 - 04/08/2016 22:57:35
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A great competition would be using provincial groups to as qualifiers for an All Ireland series
Ulster plus London 2 groups of 5
Leinster group of 5 and group of 6
Munster group of 6
Connacht group of 5
Top 2 from each group qualify for their provincial playoffs and a place in the All Ireland series
3rd and 4th from each group into All Ireland qualifiers
The 8 teams coming from 5 team groups play a first round (3rd place teams getting home advantage)
The 4 teams from 6 team groups get a bye, balancing out the fact that 2 teams got eliminated from their groups.
Those 4 teams play the 4 first round winners for the final 4 All Ireland places.
16 team All Ireland, 4 groups of 4. Each group gets a provincial champion, provincial runner up, Ulster or Leinster semi-finalist plus a qualifier.
Top 2 from each group into All Ireland quarter finals.
Shortened league. Division 1- 2 groups 5, top from each into final, 3 teams relegated, bottom plus a playoff loser
Division 2-2 groups of 6, 1st places into final, 2nd places into promotion playoffs, 6th places relegated, 5th places into relegation playoff
Division 3- 2 groups 5, 1st places into final, 2nd places into promotion playoffs
Games for the weaker counties against better opposition but getting to the All Ireland series can be a goal for most teams.
Very structured season and room is made for club football at end of the season
77 league games total
70 provincial group games
8 provincial playoff games
8 All Ireland qualifiers
31 All Ireland series games
194 games, more than now but still better organised.
League takes 6 weeks Mid March to end of April
Play provincial series in May and June 9 weeks
Play All Ireland series in July and August. 9 weeks
Much fairer than current system
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 04/08/2016 23:19:51
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Replying To bdbuddah: "The advantages of having tiered competition is you get more competitive games and avoid teams getting bad beatings. You also give more teams a better chance to win a competition. The disadvantage is you might make teams feel excluded and they lose interest.
Divisions 1A/1B and Divisions 2A/2B is to try to find balance between both. 4 groups of 8 might lead to many sided games. Maybe teams Players who most years suffer bad beatings might lose interest also." I'd be most worried about what it does to support in those counties. Fewer children going to matches. Fewer of them growing up dreaming of playing county football. More of them going off to play other sports.
I agree there's no structure that'll suddenly make a team competitive.
There are structures though that can kill interest in the sport in a certain area.
Inter county football is our biggest marketing tool, it can't get overly elitist.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 04/08/2016 23:34:02
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "I actually like this change. Will make the business end even more interesting.
No problem with them removing league semis and I'm glad league finals remain.
But you're still going to have a crap leinster championship. If Dublin were rotated to a different province annually and only played in leinster every 4 years this new proposal would be pretty complete." Not saying it's a horrible idea to bring in final eight but we will get a few dead rubbers.
Nothing to address unevenness though.
Mayo & Kerry could still get two soft matches to get to this stage whilst Tyrone or Donegal may have fought four wars to get to same stage.
That's the biggest problem not being solved.
Rotate some teams annually so we get four province's of eight will solve the problem. Let's stick Dublin in Munster every five years and see some sparks fly in June down there for a change.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 202 - 04/08/2016 23:43:41
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The cry for some time has been for the need to do more help weaker counties to become more competitive. looking at this proposal, I can't help thinking Duffy and co, were taking the p***. This proposal would do more to undermine the work of the weaker counties than immigration, lack of funding and facilities and all the other ills combined. I see some posters claiming that it would improve the quality of football on offer for spectators. They, no doubt, are referring to the games between the 'elite eight'. I somehow think that spectators from counties outside this group might not be so appreciative as their counties are pushed aside to be forgotten about. Of course there is always the 'B' competition, so beloved by Croke Park, that could be dusted down and made available, initially to D 4 teams and later expanded to accommodate D3 and D2.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 04/08/2016 23:47:27
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I attended Christy Ring and lower hurling division games. I know what it's like at that level.
I'm sorry but a 32 team group stage of 8 groups of 4 seeding teams based on league will be too predictable.
The GAA are offering a group stage with the best 8 in the land. 16 is the maximum it should eventually increase to.
If the GAA bring in a similar group stage in hurling it will have to feature 8 teams. That'll be 4 provincial finalists and 4 qualifiers. When they seek a strong incentive to win the provincial championship, the clear solution is provincial winners having 3 home games with the rest having 1 home game each. Football has 4 provincial championships. A similar format in football is 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 04/08/2016 23:56:52
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Replying To shaggykev: "Not saying it's a horrible idea to bring in final eight but we will get a few dead rubbers.
Nothing to address unevenness though.
Mayo & Kerry could still get two soft matches to get to this stage whilst Tyrone or Donegal may have fought four wars to get to same stage.
That's the biggest problem not being solved.
Rotate some teams annually so we get four province's of eight will solve the problem. Let's stick Dublin in Munster every five years and see some sparks fly in June down there for a change." Rotating counties is an absolute no go.
There'd be no point in having Provincial championships at that point at all.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/08/2016 00:24:00
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Play provincial championships first.
Seed 4 groups of 8 teams using provincial championships.
Using this season I got the following groups, each with their potential stories.
A
Dublin
Donegal
Mayo
Clare
Derry
Longford
Waterford
Louth
B
Kerry
Westmeath
Monaghan
Sligo
London
Offaly
Down
Carlow
C
Tyrone
Roscommon
Cork
Kildare
Laois
Limerick
Armagh
Wicklow
Group D
Galway
Tipperary
Meath
Cavan
Antrim
Fermanagh
Leitrim
Wexford
You could go simple and have 4 teams from each group qualifying
Each quarter of this draw would be 1v4 2v3 with 1 from each group.
You could go fancy with the playoffs and run something like this:
Week 1 2v3 game 1 4v5 game 2
Week 2 1v winner game 1 (game 3), loser game 1 v winner game 2 (game 4)
Week 3 Loser game 3 v winner game 4 (game 5)
Week 4 Winner game 3 v winner game 5
In either system most teams can aspire to the playoffs, league position matters then for seeding
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/08/2016 00:52:46
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd be most worried about what it does to support in those counties. Fewer children going to matches. Fewer of them growing up dreaming of playing county football. More of them going off to play other sports.
I agree there's no structure that'll suddenly make a team competitive.
There are structures though that can kill interest in the sport in a certain area.
Inter county football is our biggest marketing tool, it can't get overly elitist." It is also possible you could also get more interest from teams playing in a second tier, about 10 years ago my local club won a Meath junior football title for the first time in a generation and I would say it was possibly celebrated more than many senior title's were by clubs in Meath who are used to winning the county title. Another example is the Meath hurlers this year, over the years I have went to Meath club hurling matches but the Christy Ring Cup final was my first time going to see the Meath hurlers playing a match and it was a great occasion for Meath hurling.
Unfortunately there are possible downsides to all formats but you have to look at the overall picture and try to find the best balanced solution. For example I enjoy going to provincial championship matches (they are usually within relatively short driving time, a good crowd from both counties usually attend and due to local rivalries often have a bit of spice about them) but because of the fact that each province has a different number of counties and it is rare that the standards in different provinces will be similar at any one time makes incorporating them into a fair and structured All Ireland championship pretty much impossible.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1356 - 05/08/2016 11:24:49
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Scrap the provincials. End of.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 05/08/2016 11:32:45
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Scrap the provincials. End of.
Donegalman (All) - Posts:2568 - 05/08/2016 11:32:45 That doesn't help anyone.
It removes most counties chances of ever winning silverware. It removes highlights of the irish sporting year from the calendar
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/08/2016 11:49:41
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Scrap the provincials. End of.
Donegalman (All) - Posts:2568 - 05/08/2016 11:32:45 That doesn't help anyone.
It removes most counties chances of ever winning silverware. It removes highlights of the irish sporting year from the calendar
You have countless posts complaining about the alleged bias in the media and lack of coverage for hurling and gaelic removing the provincial championships means there would be even less media coverage
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/08/2016 11:50:56
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