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The Best Ulster side of the last 30 years?

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Replying To alano12:  "again you are not being genuine in your posts...donegal, dublin, cork, mayo, laois all decent sides during the 00s and derry werent bad a couple of years..galway were a good side for a while and meath also had a couple of good years...tyrone and kerry were head and shoulders above any side in the 90s

you mistake competitive with good...the premier league is currently competitive but the quality is very poor...there is simply no side from ulster who has been as good as tyrone in the 00s who if had a bit more luck could have won even more all irelands possibly"
None of them teams were any serious
threat. Tyrone had some great players
but they had plenty of luck in that they
won three and yet were beaten in two
of those campaigns. Could Down/ Derry/Donegal have won more??? You seem to
be blinded that more recent equals better. Surely you can see that if you
have two chances (and sometimes the
qualifier route was the better route)
it was easier to win the All Ireland? ??
If you can't see that this conversation
is pointless? ??

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 22:14:33    1890686

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Tyrone is the best side in Ulster in the last 30 years. That team won minor, u21 and senior championships. Only team to ever play 10 matches on way to winning All Ireland. 2005. Twas the most memorable and exciting championship for years. The Tyrone Armagh battles excited the whole country. Brilliant memories.

border Gael (Monaghan) - Posts: 894 - 26/07/2016 22:59:19    1890714

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "None of them teams were any serious
threat. Tyrone had some great players
but they had plenty of luck in that they
won three and yet were beaten in two
of those campaigns. Could Down/ Derry/Donegal have won more??? You seem to
be blinded that more recent equals better. Surely you can see that if you
have two chances (and sometimes the
qualifier route was the better route)
it was easier to win the All Ireland? ??
If you can't see that this conversation
is pointless? ??"
You do realise that it wasn't just Tyrone who got a second bite at the cherry in 2005 & 2008? Surely it's tougher to win due to the backdoor, as the top sides now all congregate in the semi-finals year after year, and any of them who were shocked in June have come back into the mix.

Ask Cork if it is easier to win all-irelands in the modern era. There was a period when they'd quite regularly beat Kerry in Munster, only to fail in trying to do the same again in Croke Park later in the summer. Was it easier for Cork to beat Kerry twice than once?

Breffni's point earlier is the key one in this particular strand of the argument. It's very easier to say 'so and so would have won more in the current era', but they couldn't all win more as there's only one AI winner per year!

And to take up Alano's point, competitive doesn't equate to quality. I'd place more emphasis on the teams at the top. For instance, the late 1970s is considered a vintage era for gaelic football, not because it had strength in depth, but because the top sides (Dublin/Kerry) played at such a great level. What made the noughties unusual was that there were 3 genuinely top sides going at it year after year, plus a smattering of very good sides (Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Donegal) who would probably have had more success had they come along a few years later.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 26/07/2016 23:19:32    1890718

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "You do realise that it wasn't just Tyrone who got a second bite at the cherry in 2005 & 2008? Surely it's tougher to win due to the backdoor, as the top sides now all congregate in the semi-finals year after year, and any of them who were shocked in June have come back into the mix.

Ask Cork if it is easier to win all-irelands in the modern era. There was a period when they'd quite regularly beat Kerry in Munster, only to fail in trying to do the same again in Croke Park later in the summer. Was it easier for Cork to beat Kerry twice than once?

Breffni's point earlier is the key one in this particular strand of the argument. It's very easier to say 'so and so would have won more in the current era', but they couldn't all win more as there's only one AI winner per year!

And to take up Alano's point, competitive doesn't equate to quality. I'd place more emphasis on the teams at the top. For instance, the late 1970s is considered a vintage era for gaelic football, not because it had strength in depth, but because the top sides (Dublin/Kerry) played at such a great level. What made the noughties unusual was that there were 3 genuinely top sides going at it year after year, plus a smattering of very good sides (Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Donegal) who would probably have had more success had they come along a few years later."
As I said in the beginning its too close
to call in terms of the two sides.Down
won two under a do or die system. If
we had lost once we would have been
gone. Given that Ulster was so tough
in that era it was do or die every day
we went out.Tyrone won three under
a more advantageous system still a
very good achievement to win three
under that system. But the pressure
of the do or die nature was not there
on every game. They could afford
mistakes like in 2005 and 2008. Thus
the pressure was not on as much as
early. When the pressure is on mistakes
are more likely. I think that sums it up
fairly.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 26/07/2016 23:43:43    1890725

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it's nice to see a thread about the railway Cup.
ulster won the railway cup in 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2012, 2013. so take your pick from that lot.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 26/07/2016 23:49:02    1890726

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "We availed of the back door system.
We were able to build up through
the qualifiers and with a bit of luck
we made it to the final and could of
won it. Watch the way Down played
against Kerry in the quarter final- no
one could say our football was not
of a very high standard that day. Kerry
played very good too. Plus it was
entertaining to watch."
you mean when kerry were missing 2 of their best players?..the fact is that that down team is one of the worst teams in recent times to ever reach an all ireland final

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 26/07/2016 23:54:05    1890727

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "None of them teams were any serious
threat. Tyrone had some great players
but they had plenty of luck in that they
won three and yet were beaten in two
of those campaigns. Could Down/ Derry/Donegal have won more??? You seem to
be blinded that more recent equals better. Surely you can see that if you
have two chances (and sometimes the
qualifier route was the better route)
it was easier to win the All Ireland? ??
If you can't see that this conversation
is pointless? ??"
your whole argument is based on the qualifiers and the 'good old days'...you ignore the level of opposition teams have to face in the quarters sometimes, tyrone had to play armagh 3 times in 2005,..tyrone beat a pretty good dublin team, armagh and kerry to win their all ireland...you have to play more games and its much more difficult now to win an all ireland..under the old system you could face the weakest province and have a handy route to the final and you would not have to beat a team more than once...player for player tyrone were simply a lot superior and more gifted...they beat a truly great kerry side on 3 occasions...armagh were a more dominant ulster side then any of those in the 90s and ulster was pretty strong in the 00s with likes of fermanagh, derry, donegal having good years as well as tyrone..competition does not equal quality..its the same in hurling where people had this notion that the year clare won was suddenly better..the reality is that the standard dropped substantially with kilkenny in a very brief rebuilding mode..

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 26/07/2016 23:58:25    1890729

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "You do realise that it wasn't just Tyrone who got a second bite at the cherry in 2005 & 2008? Surely it's tougher to win due to the backdoor, as the top sides now all congregate in the semi-finals year after year, and any of them who were shocked in June have come back into the mix.

Ask Cork if it is easier to win all-irelands in the modern era. There was a period when they'd quite regularly beat Kerry in Munster, only to fail in trying to do the same again in Croke Park later in the summer. Was it easier for Cork to beat Kerry twice than once?

Breffni's point earlier is the key one in this particular strand of the argument. It's very easier to say 'so and so would have won more in the current era', but they couldn't all win more as there's only one AI winner per year!

And to take up Alano's point, competitive doesn't equate to quality. I'd place more emphasis on the teams at the top. For instance, the late 1970s is considered a vintage era for gaelic football, not because it had strength in depth, but because the top sides (Dublin/Kerry) played at such a great level. What made the noughties unusual was that there were 3 genuinely top sides going at it year after year, plus a smattering of very good sides (Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Donegal) who would probably have had more success had they come along a few years later."
exactly...cork would have multiple all irelands if it wasnt for the backdoor and kerry turning up to beat them!

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 26/07/2016 23:59:59    1890730

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "You do realise that it wasn't just Tyrone who got a second bite at the cherry in 2005 & 2008? Surely it's tougher to win due to the backdoor, as the top sides now all congregate in the semi-finals year after year, and any of them who were shocked in June have come back into the mix.

Ask Cork if it is easier to win all-irelands in the modern era. There was a period when they'd quite regularly beat Kerry in Munster, only to fail in trying to do the same again in Croke Park later in the summer. Was it easier for Cork to beat Kerry twice than once?

Breffni's point earlier is the key one in this particular strand of the argument. It's very easier to say 'so and so would have won more in the current era', but they couldn't all win more as there's only one AI winner per year!

And to take up Alano's point, competitive doesn't equate to quality. I'd place more emphasis on the teams at the top. For instance, the late 1970s is considered a vintage era for gaelic football, not because it had strength in depth, but because the top sides (Dublin/Kerry) played at such a great level. What made the noughties unusual was that there were 3 genuinely top sides going at it year after year, plus a smattering of very good sides (Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Donegal) who would probably have had more success had they come along a few years later."
Under the old system there was
always a chance that a team could
be ambushed and they were gone
for the year. The qualifiers eliminated
that threat and aided the top teams by
enabling them to gain momentum by
getting a few winnable matches to get
up and running again even if you lost
an early match. So they were actually
more beneficial to top sides than lower
ranked teams. The ambush knock out
was gone as if you beat a team they
weren't knocked out, they just took
a different path. As everything in life
it is much easier with a safety net.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/07/2016 00:00:02    1890731

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Replying To alano12:  "you mean when kerry were missing 2 of their best players?..the fact is that that down team is one of the worst teams in recent times to ever reach an all ireland final"
I never said we were a great team
but we were very good that year
with Coulter, Clarke, Hughes etc
in the forward line. Its just bias
if you can't see we played great
that day. We were winning by
9 points before Kerry got a last
gasp penalty. We also didn't have
to employ any systems or tactics
we just went for it from the off
(Poland goal within the first minute).

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/07/2016 01:07:51    1890742

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Replying To alano12:  "your whole argument is based on the qualifiers and the 'good old days'...you ignore the level of opposition teams have to face in the quarters sometimes, tyrone had to play armagh 3 times in 2005,..tyrone beat a pretty good dublin team, armagh and kerry to win their all ireland...you have to play more games and its much more difficult now to win an all ireland..under the old system you could face the weakest province and have a handy route to the final and you would not have to beat a team more than once...player for player tyrone were simply a lot superior and more gifted...they beat a truly great kerry side on 3 occasions...armagh were a more dominant ulster side then any of those in the 90s and ulster was pretty strong in the 00s with likes of fermanagh, derry, donegal having good years as well as tyrone..competition does not equal quality..its the same in hurling where people had this notion that the year clare won was suddenly better..the reality is that the standard dropped substantially with kilkenny in a very brief rebuilding mode.."
Its easier with a safety net than it was
before the qualifiers came in. You can
lose a match and still win the All Ireland.
You can have one bad match when before
you couldn't.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/07/2016 01:12:03    1890745

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Lads give the Down man what he wants, he has nothing left to hold on to. Down are the greatest county ever to play the game and the last bastions of free flowing football!

Now go back to your basement, pull out the old show reels and watch your all irelands in croke park over and over because the only chance you have of seeing it live again is if the bring in this second tier!

redhanddefender (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 27/07/2016 08:55:38    1890773

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I loved watching the Down team which won 2 All Irelands in the 1990's (apart from when the beat us in 1991), great full forward line, Greg Blaney kicking the ball into this full forward line. I would really like to rate this Down team first but being fair Tyrone team that won 3 All Irelands would have to get my vote (even if 1990's Down's style was better to watch). What seals for me is that they were around at a time when a really great Kerry team was there, all 3 All Ireland win's they beat this Kerry team and never lost to Kerry in that time. They had a real competitive edge to them (and in Canavan an all-time great player). It is fair to bring up the back door (of course it is better to win All Irelands being unbeaten) but you have to say each year (just like Kerry at the time) their preparation usually was focused on August onwards more than winning team provincial titles. Armagh of 2000's very good team also, better than all other Ulster teams who won 1 All Ireland in this time frame.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1352 - 27/07/2016 08:59:07    1890776

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If youre talking about just single season teams Donegal 2012 would be hard to look past, Beat Tyrone, Down, Kerry, Cork and Mayo, 3 of the previous 4 All Ireland winners, Down 2 years removed from a final appearance and a Mayo side that had beaten the holders.

joeteor (Donegal) - Posts: 217 - 27/07/2016 11:08:17    1890853

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Replying To himachechy:  "Gary... see below. Slow day in work. results from 87 to 16 championships as per Wickepedia. 240 games with results and 34 draws.

Thing that stands out for me is Down's poor returns overall. So much for Kerry of the North...


Won lost drawn Total Win % Titles in period
Donegal 43 25 7 75 57% 5
Tyrone 42 21 12 75 56% 9
Armagh 36 23 12 71 51% 7
Derry 33 27 6 66 50% 3
Monaghan 24 27 6 57 42% 3
Down 25 28 8 61 41% 2
Cavan 17 29 9 55 31% 1
Fermanagh 15 30 5 50 30% 0
Antrim 5 30 3 38 13% 0"
Good work taking the time to do that

This now provides us with the detailed statistic's of the Ulster Championship over the last 30 years, showing Donegal have won the most Ulster Championship games, while Tyrone have won the most Ulster titles, followed by Armagh and Derry.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 27/07/2016 11:15:30    1890856

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Replying To joeteor:  "If youre talking about just single season teams Donegal 2012 would be hard to look past, Beat Tyrone, Down, Kerry, Cork and Mayo, 3 of the previous 4 All Ireland winners, Down 2 years removed from a final appearance and a Mayo side that had beaten the holders."
Donegal were very very impressive in 2012. I remember watching them in the Ulster final vs Down and thinking 'This team look unbeatable'. It's the first time I've ever said that about any Ulster side I've seen play. Granted we were no world beaters but we actually had a decent side in 2012 and Donegal dismantled us with ease in the second half. Even when Down played Tyrone during the 03-08 period I always felt we were capable of an upset.

The organisation, movement, pace, power, skill and consistency level of that Donegal team was something I had not witness before.

The complete package. No one in Ireland could begrudge them an All-Ireland for sure.

However, Donegal have been unable to reach those same levels since.

MourneArmy (Down) - Posts: 1787 - 27/07/2016 11:22:13    1890860

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Its easier with a safety net than it was
before the qualifiers came in. You can
lose a match and still win the All Ireland.
You can have one bad match when before
you couldn't."
On average the difficulty level of winning an All Ireland is the same pre and post qualifiers.

What you can say though is that there's less variance now and that the All Ireland winner today is more likely to be the best team in the country than they were in the pre-qualifier days.

Best single year team I'd go for Donegal

Best team Tyrone 03-08 at the end of the day it's all about the All Ireland, back door-front door it doesn't matter. Going through the back door you still have to win at least the same number of games.

You'll tend to have a harder quarter-final through the back door.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 27/07/2016 12:18:46    1890890

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Overall standard in the 00s was far lower than the early 90s. Posters talking about strong Dublin and Laois ! teams were in the 00s says it all. Neither would even have got near a Leinster final let alone compete for the All Ireland in the early 90s. Probably the worst Dublin team for 50 years and a Laois team than won 1 Leinster title in a really poor era.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 27/07/2016 12:26:02    1890894

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "Overall standard in the 00s was far lower than the early 90s. Posters talking about strong Dublin and Laois ! teams were in the 00s says it all. Neither would even have got near a Leinster final let alone compete for the All Ireland in the early 90s. Probably the worst Dublin team for 50 years and a Laois team than won 1 Leinster title in a really poor era."
But the Tyrone and Armagh teams of 02 - 06 were miles ahead of anything from the 90s. Absolutely miles ahead!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 27/07/2016 13:18:52    1890921

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "Overall standard in the 00s was far lower than the early 90s. Posters talking about strong Dublin and Laois ! teams were in the 00s says it all. Neither would even have got near a Leinster final let alone compete for the All Ireland in the early 90s. Probably the worst Dublin team for 50 years and a Laois team than won 1 Leinster title in a really poor era."
Pillar Caffrey's Dublin were the worst Dublin side in the last 50 years? Are you for real? Worse than in the late 60s / early 70s? Worse than in the late 80s or late 90s?

Pillar's Dublin were a very good side who played an exciting brand of football. They were extremely competitive in a vintage age for gaelic football, and would probably have been rewarded with an AI in some other eras.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 27/07/2016 13:56:20    1890944

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