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The 2023 GAA Rugby World Cup does have a ring to it though Ormond.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 02/08/2016 10:42:57
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "More people on this site in agreement with Wicklowman than I expected. If things continue as they are I wonder how many people will be attending intercounty championship matches in 20 years time. Probably only a fraction of the numbers that are attending now. Meanwhile the rugby world cup will probably be hosted in Ireland in 6 years time and the people will be going gaga for it. Hard to blame them -- when Gaelic football games are regularly generating more hand passes per game (and most of them lateral or defensive ones) than rugby it makes more sense to follow the game that actually is rugby than be bored by the one that's apeing it." So we should all follow rugby instead of football? Let's put a few things on the table about rugby:
1) There is 15 men behind the ball for over 90% of the game.
2) When the ball is moved forward it is generally to kick it out of play for a set piece.
3) Most of the game is based on running through tackles using power and strength and not skill.
4) On average you'll probably see 5 or 6 scores from open play in a rugby game and I might be being generous. The recent ulster final had almost 20 scores from play and an awful lot of the top drawer. It was seen as one of the poorer games of the championship too,
5) So much of the game is spent watching grown men wrestle around the ground and you can't even see the ball.
For all football's faults its streets ahead of rugby which is way over hyped. Everything aspect that people complain about in football like men behind the ball and not enough scores is ten times worse in rugby. It's a game built around scrums and line outs - says it all.
A Another (None) - Posts: 193 - 02/08/2016 10:45:17
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Replying To Wicklowman: "Finally, the championship came alive. You can imagine my delight when I watched those contested kickouts in the midfield area in the Tipperary game. Was I entertained Brolly? I certainly was. The art of a properly executed 40-50 yard kickout is not a myth, it's real again." But how many teams do that in football? Not a lot. I think GAA fans are frustrated at not seeing someone just launch the ball into the full-forward and let him battle it out with the full-back. OK, so he mightn't win it every time but so fecking what? He might grab a goal or two just as easy. But no, keeping precious "possession" is king. Watching Clare handpass the ball backwards and sideways ad infinitum on Sunday any time they got to the Kerry 40-yard line was soul-destroying.
I think the GAA mantra "lehit-inta-f**k" needs to be reintroduced to football.
I don't want to watch teams spending 10 "fascinating" minutes at a time chucking a ball around "probing" for openings. If that's your thing you should watch basketball (and even basketball force teams to shoot after 30 seconds and ban them from bringing the ball back into their own half!).
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 02/08/2016 10:48:23
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Replying To Greengrass: "I've just read an article on the42 which discusses the GAAs financial report for 2015 which says that attendances for championship football were up by 19% on 2014. The attendances in Ulster were up for the fifth successive year ." Yet all are down this year in 2016 including Ulster!
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/mounting-gaa-concern-over-the-decline-in-attendances-1.2737954
Probably the weather!
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1349 - 02/08/2016 11:15:11
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I would advise you give the GAA Hour's latest podcast a wee listen there for a bit of context to how the game is going. Listening to Colm Parkinson and specifically Paul Galvin talk about the state of the game was interesting, and then having someone like Dion Fanning talking about the championship with fresh eyes as well.
Every year it's the same. Every year the game is dead. Every single bloody year. I'll never forget Jarlath Burns crying about Derry v Dublin in the league final a few years ago. Guess what, it's not the tactics, it's not handpassing, it's not blanket defences - it's match ups and structure that is the problem. Why are so many people hysterical when a team tries a different tactic? Look at every single sport in the world - you have defensive teams, you have attacking teams, you have boring teams, you have fantastically exciting teams. Does any other sports fans froth at the mouth when a weaker team tries to stifle a more talented opponent? Do they call for the rulebook to be torn up because how dare a team with less resources try and even the playing field any way they can and give themselves the best chance of a win?
Entertainment is of course important. But I guarantee you if Wicklow won a Leinster title scraping through and packing their defence with no so-called "traditional" skills on show, the people of Wicklow would be delighted. I think the sport is in a great place and I think even though Dublin are seemingly unbeatable at times, there are plenty of teams capable of taking them down on any given day, and that's brilliant to have at this stage of the Championship. You have Tipperary building through underage success and they'll be aiming for a Munster title soon. Roscommon really let themselves down in championship again but I think they'll be back. Donegal are not dead and buried though people wish we were. Tyrone are strong, Mayo are strong, Galway are building - why are people so negative about it all the time?
The only thing holding back the GAA at the minute is it's unwillingness to change the structure of the All-Ireland series.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 02/08/2016 11:20:57
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Interesting piece.
Not all are down by the way. Connacht is marginally up, Ulster is marginally down but still seen to be performing well.
One of the men best qualified to explain why is putting forward lack of competitiveness and structures as the mostly likely reasons. No mention of style of play in there at all actually.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 02/08/2016 15:41:43
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "Were the two games in Croke Park yesterday worth my 25 euro? Absolutely. And I expect to get even more value out of next Saurday's full house fixtures. If the GAA does decide to stage the Rugby Union World Cup in 2023 given the plummeting attendances at Munster Rugby matches this past season, there's every chance that by 2023 there may be no Rugby Union supporters left to watch it.
mediaman (Antrim) - Posts:337 - 31/07/2016 11:12:37The GAA wont be staging the Rugby world cup in 2023. They will be helping to host it and there will be very good support of this world cup if we were to host it.
Munster have had some attendances drop but it isn't a big concern especially in relation to the potential hosting of a world wide event that the world cup is.
It would probably be more accurate to say that there is no chance that there will be no rugby supporters left to watch it. I for one will definitely take a ticket if they are giving them away for nothing (due to your perceived lack of demand). A rugby world cup would be brilliant for the country. From a Cork GAA perspective, the rugby world cup cannot come quick enough, as a rugby match is the only way we are going to fill our new stadium and make some money back..
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts:3246 - 01/08/2016 23:04:12There wont be a lack of demand if we host a world cup." Did I say there would be? Read my post again....
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/08/2016 22:05:15
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Replying To A Another: "So we should all follow rugby instead of football? Let's put a few things on the table about rugby:
1) There is 15 men behind the ball for over 90% of the game.
2) When the ball is moved forward it is generally to kick it out of play for a set piece.
3) Most of the game is based on running through tackles using power and strength and not skill.
4) On average you'll probably see 5 or 6 scores from open play in a rugby game and I might be being generous. The recent ulster final had almost 20 scores from play and an awful lot of the top drawer. It was seen as one of the poorer games of the championship too,
5) So much of the game is spent watching grown men wrestle around the ground and you can't even see the ball.
For all football's faults its streets ahead of rugby which is way over hyped. Everything aspect that people complain about in football like men behind the ball and not enough scores is ten times worse in rugby. It's a game built around scrums and line outs - says it all." Your comparing apples and oranges. Rugby is a unique sport and I enjoy watching it on tv for what it is. 15 men behind the ball ion rugby ?, well that's because of their offside rule.
I used to really enjoy going go to Gaelic football as it is also a unique sport but I enjoy it less than before because of the sport trying to ape some aspects of basketball/ rugby. In some games the mishmash of Gaelic football mixed with some basketball/ rugby elements is just terrible to watch.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1357 - 03/08/2016 07:40:11
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Replying To JoeSoap: "I would advise you give the GAA Hour's latest podcast a wee listen there for a bit of context to how the game is going. Listening to Colm Parkinson and specifically Paul Galvin talk about the state of the game was interesting, and then having someone like Dion Fanning talking about the championship with fresh eyes as well.
Every year it's the same. Every year the game is dead. Every single bloody year. I'll never forget Jarlath Burns crying about Derry v Dublin in the league final a few years ago. Guess what, it's not the tactics, it's not handpassing, it's not blanket defences - it's match ups and structure that is the problem. Why are so many people hysterical when a team tries a different tactic? Look at every single sport in the world - you have defensive teams, you have attacking teams, you have boring teams, you have fantastically exciting teams. Does any other sports fans froth at the mouth when a weaker team tries to stifle a more talented opponent? Do they call for the rulebook to be torn up because how dare a team with less resources try and even the playing field any way they can and give themselves the best chance of a win?
Entertainment is of course important. But I guarantee you if Wicklow won a Leinster title scraping through and packing their defence with no so-called "traditional" skills on show, the people of Wicklow would be delighted. I think the sport is in a great place and I think even though Dublin are seemingly unbeatable at times, there are plenty of teams capable of taking them down on any given day, and that's brilliant to have at this stage of the Championship. You have Tipperary building through underage success and they'll be aiming for a Munster title soon. Roscommon really let themselves down in championship again but I think they'll be back. Donegal are not dead and buried though people wish we were. Tyrone are strong, Mayo are strong, Galway are building - why are people so negative about it all the time?
The only thing holding back the GAA at the minute is it's unwillingness to change the structure of the All-Ireland series." Your right about the championship structure, it's out dated and all the one sided games don't help.
But the trend of how most teams is playing is very worrying. Years ago tactics if they existed were to create space for the inside forwards (eg. Having a roving full forward who the full back would follow out) not the caveman tactics of placing most of your players in front of your goal to block off space. What made Gaelic football unique was players competing against each other for the ball, now the trend is going towards removing this from the game, if this keeps happening eventually most will lose interest as loyalty to following the team/ game will eventually be trumped by annoyance at the way the game is going.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1357 - 03/08/2016 07:55:08
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Replying To Whammo86: "Interesting piece.
Not all are down by the way. Connacht is marginally up, Ulster is marginally down but still seen to be performing well.
One of the men best qualified to explain why is putting forward lack of competitiveness and structures as the mostly likely reasons. No mention of style of play in there at all actually." The style of play is definitely a factor on the ground. There is massive debate now in my area about the defensive system that the local team use. Older people and people 35 plus were unimpressed with the product. Younger people are very much the opinion we'll do whatever is necessary to yield results, thus merely apeing the national picture. A lot of people are staying away. Their last 2 games were won 0-9 to 0-7 against a poor side and lost 2-12 to 0-9 against an open expansive side. Basically this team now play so defensively they score 0-9 a game, not good enough to win most matches and does not entertain.
Wicklowman (Wicklow) - Posts: 1139 - 03/08/2016 08:35:56
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The new style of defensive football means the 1 on 1 battles defender and forward which were so engaging are slowly being removed from the game. Whats left is a game of touch rugby league
bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 03/08/2016 10:25:58
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If the GAA does decide to stage the Rugby Union World Cup in 2023 given the plummeting attendances at Munster Rugby matches this past season, there's every chance that by 2023 there may be no Rugby Union supporters left to watch it.
mediaman (Antrim) - Posts:337 - 31/07/2016 11:12:37
well then maybe one could argue given the plummeting attendances at munster hurling and football theres every change that by 2023 there may be no gaa supporters left to watch it!!!! -just kidding wont happen
when i was at munster hurling final in gaelic grounds between minor and senior games got talking to guy beside me he was around the 70 mark, Limerick fan knew him to see from club games, he was telling me about going to cork v tipp games there as kid watching christy ring, at half time in senior game we were talking about declining crowds and he made the point that the way things were going next time gaelic grounds is likely to be full is for the rugby world cup. Quarter final i hope. Have to admit he could be right. REally hope Limerick can raise it a bit and start filling out the place before then, good luck limerick minors on sunday
janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 03/08/2016 11:31:51
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Agree with Wicklowman 100%.Gaelic football has been ruined by hand passing in my opinion.Hand passing and negative coaches.
Condorman (Dublin) - Posts: 983 - 03/08/2016 12:27:37
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Replying To Wicklowman: "The style of play is definitely a factor on the ground. There is massive debate now in my area about the defensive system that the local team use. Older people and people 35 plus were unimpressed with the product. Younger people are very much the opinion we'll do whatever is necessary to yield results, thus merely apeing the national picture. A lot of people are staying away. Their last 2 games were won 0-9 to 0-7 against a poor side and lost 2-12 to 0-9 against an open expansive side. Basically this team now play so defensively they score 0-9 a game, not good enough to win most matches and does not entertain." Nobody blames the players for that attitude, the problem in the GAA administrators who with all their rule changes they bring in have never seriously tried to bring in rule changes that would counteract the main issues facing Gaelic football, the horrible defensive dominated play which is eliminating man on man competition for the ball.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1357 - 03/08/2016 12:31:30
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So we should all follow rugby instead of football? Let's put a few things on the table about rugby:
1) There is 15 men behind the ball for over 90% of the game.
2) When the ball is moved forward it is generally to kick it out of play for a set piece.
3) Most of the game is based on running through tackles using power and strength and not skill.
4) On average you'll probably see 5 or 6 scores from open play in a rugby game and I might be being generous. The recent ulster final had almost 20 scores from play and an awful lot of the top drawer. It was seen as one of the poorer games of the championship too,
5) So much of the game is spent watching grown men wrestle around the ground and you can't even see the ball.
For all football's faults its streets ahead of rugby which is way over hyped. Everything aspect that people complain about in football like men behind the ball and not enough scores is ten times worse in rugby. It's a game built around scrums and line outs - says it all.
A Another (All) - Posts:144 - 02/08/2016 10:45:17There is 15 men behind the ball in rugby because it has an offside line. The ball isn't generally moved forward by kicking it out of play
You don't watch rugby if you think its based on power and strength not skill.
There is much less scores in rugby because of the way its set up and there being an offside line
The same with soccer as well. Rugby over hyped how. Rugby isn't built around scrums and lineouts.
Why so bitter? Did some kids with rugby balls hit you on the head when growing up or something?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/08/2016 12:42:24
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janesboro - Falling attendances is the story of Irish rugby and you should know it from Thomond Park attendances. Gaelic games have never been so strong, considering media coverage, attendances and participation, for example growth in Dublin, Ladies participation, games abroad.
The reason the GAA has remained strong, vibrant and flourished is that it has two very good products i.e Gaelic Football and Hurling.
fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 03/08/2016 13:00:50
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I really don't think hand passing is the problem.
Its a part of Ulster football, we grow up with it and it's not coached as a way of retaining possession for possessions sake. We coach it to get people running off the shoulder at speed, creating space by tying up a defender. Good coordination and timing is needed for it to work and when it's done well I love watching good hand passing moves.
I get that it's not part of the Leinster tradition, I really wish your teams came up with their own style of play more in keeping with your own traditions.
Tipperary at the weekend showed that there's a place for direct ball into the forward line still.
They also pushed up, forcing Galway to go long. I think this is going to be increasingly common and we'll see more contested kick outs going forward.
Regards style of play and attendances I feel tearintom is overestimating the effect it is having on attendance. It is a factor but there are other much more important ones out there. Mainly the championship structure.
It can be seen somewhat in that Dublin in football and Kilkenny in hurling are amongst the most attacking sides in their code. Both Leinster championships have struggled in spite of this. That would suggest the problem lies more with a lack of depth in competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 03/08/2016 14:08:02
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fainleog - falling attendances is more the story of musnter rugby rather than irish rugby -other provinces still holding their own -but GAA has had falling attendances look at the crowds we had v tipp and clare this year compred to previous year or munster final -- reason both limerick hurlers/footballers and munster rugby had falling attendances is coz we aint winning
The reason the GAA has remained strong, vibrant and flourished is that it has two very good products i.e Gaelic Football and Hurling.
- totally agree with you on this in both mens and womens - in fairness the club gaa and rugby in limerick has been very good qualify the last few seasons
janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 03/08/2016 15:00:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "I really don't think hand passing is the problem.
Its a part of Ulster football, we grow up with it and it's not coached as a way of retaining possession for possessions sake. We coach it to get people running off the shoulder at speed, creating space by tying up a defender. Good coordination and timing is needed for it to work and when it's done well I love watching good hand passing moves.
I get that it's not part of the Leinster tradition, I really wish your teams came up with their own style of play more in keeping with your own traditions.
Tipperary at the weekend showed that there's a place for direct ball into the forward line still.
They also pushed up, forcing Galway to go long. I think this is going to be increasingly common and we'll see more contested kick outs going forward.
Regards style of play and attendances I feel tearintom is overestimating the effect it is having on attendance. It is a factor but there are other much more important ones out there. Mainly the championship structure.
It can be seen somewhat in that Dublin in football and Kilkenny in hurling are amongst the most attacking sides in their code. Both Leinster championships have struggled in spite of this. That would suggest the problem lies more with a lack of depth in competition." For what its worth I don't think the issue lies with handpassing, blanket defences or anything of the sort. My issue is with the approach taken by teams influenced by the current competition structures.
At the moment an awful lot of teams are setting up with 2 objectives, the first one is to go and win the game and the second is to make sure if they are beat its not by a demoralising amount that affects the team. Whats better, losing by a point or two by not really going full belt to win it or losing by 8 plus point but having a real cut at winning it. The issue is the current structures making the first option the more reasonable approach.
That's why we see better games from this stage on every year in the football. It's a case of nothing to lose lets go for this, look at Westmeath this weekend in the 2nd half when they went for it with nothing to lose, different team altogether as an example.
The structures are the issues. We have to find some way to further reward attacking football. Theres nothing wrong with handpassing in my book, its an essential skill of the game, a team attacking and working the ball up the pitch utilising slick handpassing moves is a joy to watch. Running unopposed to the half way line and passing the ball backwards and sideways for the next 5 minutes isn't a joy to watch.
League football tends to be more enjoyable than championship. One reason being is score difference counts. A few more scores in a game could mean the difference between relegation play off or promotion play off for example. A 1 point win is the same as a 10 point win in Championship.
Imagine a championship played on a league/knockout basis with bonus points handed out for teams who score more than 20 points in a game for example.
Improve the structures and reward teams for attacking football and we would see a far more entertaining game in my opinion.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1349 - 03/08/2016 15:49:28
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Replying To tearintom: "For what its worth I don't think the issue lies with handpassing, blanket defences or anything of the sort. My issue is with the approach taken by teams influenced by the current competition structures.
At the moment an awful lot of teams are setting up with 2 objectives, the first one is to go and win the game and the second is to make sure if they are beat its not by a demoralising amount that affects the team. Whats better, losing by a point or two by not really going full belt to win it or losing by 8 plus point but having a real cut at winning it. The issue is the current structures making the first option the more reasonable approach.
That's why we see better games from this stage on every year in the football. It's a case of nothing to lose lets go for this, look at Westmeath this weekend in the 2nd half when they went for it with nothing to lose, different team altogether as an example.
The structures are the issues. We have to find some way to further reward attacking football. Theres nothing wrong with handpassing in my book, its an essential skill of the game, a team attacking and working the ball up the pitch utilising slick handpassing moves is a joy to watch. Running unopposed to the half way line and passing the ball backwards and sideways for the next 5 minutes isn't a joy to watch.
League football tends to be more enjoyable than championship. One reason being is score difference counts. A few more scores in a game could mean the difference between relegation play off or promotion play off for example. A 1 point win is the same as a 10 point win in Championship.
Imagine a championship played on a league/knockout basis with bonus points handed out for teams who score more than 20 points in a game for example.
Improve the structures and reward teams for attacking football and we would see a far more entertaining game in my opinion." Ok fair enough.
I misunderstood where you were coming from.
I agree with practically everything you say there.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 03/08/2016 16:55:46
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