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Replying To sponger: "Provincial comps still getting in the way of meaningful competition.
Still think an A and B competition is the way forward with promotion and relegation.
Play at your own level and work your way up. Better than hoping for an ok draw in the qualifiers." I think Clare and Tipp fans would disagree with that.
Both counties would likely have been in a B championship this year, if there was 16 in each.
Nobody would've been caring too much about a run to a B championship final.
More of their top players may not have bothered to stick around for the year.
Counties already play a competition at their level. The league. Not many people care too much about division 3 and 4 of that.
Segregating the championship is not the answer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4235 - 29/07/2016 18:22:05
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Yeah but the likes of tipp have the advantage of winning one match in munster if they are automatic semi finalists and it puts them into round 4 of qualifiers. Laois won 1 match in leinster this year lost to dublin and were dumped into round 1 of qualifiers. Its a joke. As it stands next year with cork unseeded , its possible for tipp to play the winners of limerick or waterford to put themselves into round 4 of the qualifiers ie the last 12. Meanwhile in ulster a team like cavan could beat fermanagh in prelim round , monagahn in qf , lose semi to tyrone and enter qualifiers at round 2. Again i repeat its a joke.
Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 767 - 29/07/2016 19:03:24
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Replying To Malonemagic: "Yeah but the likes of tipp have the advantage of winning one match in munster if they are automatic semi finalists and it puts them into round 4 of qualifiers. Laois won 1 match in leinster this year lost to dublin and were dumped into round 1 of qualifiers. Its a joke. As it stands next year with cork unseeded , its possible for tipp to play the winners of limerick or waterford to put themselves into round 4 of the qualifiers ie the last 12. Meanwhile in ulster a team like cavan could beat fermanagh in prelim round , monagahn in qf , lose semi to tyrone and enter qualifiers at round 2. Again i repeat its a joke." Yes I agree they should be more fair.
Segregating the championship is not the answer though.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4235 - 29/07/2016 19:48:19
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For me the championship should be run as 2 separate competitions. A national draw run down to 4 teams and then the provincial championships as is, to also leave 4 teams.
Any teams left in both qualify for semis directly.
The teams left in 1 of the competitions play 1 round with the winners progressing to complete 4 team semi-finals.
It's way more fair than the current qualifier system.
You also see the draw Kerry have had. Wouldn't happen. They'd have either qualified through the National draw, or be facing off against 1 of the teams that did get to the final 4 of the national draw.
No qualifiers. Probably makes scheduling easier. Probably more interesting for fans. The national draw isn't a losers tournament like the qualifiers.
Provincial championships regain more of their do or die aspect. If a team is out of the National draw they need to win their province to keep their season alive.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4235 - 29/07/2016 21:09:13
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Replying To Whammo86: "For me the championship should be run as 2 separate competitions. A national draw run down to 4 teams and then the provincial championships as is, to also leave 4 teams.
Any teams left in both qualify for semis directly.
The teams left in 1 of the competitions play 1 round with the winners progressing to complete 4 team semi-finals.
It's way more fair than the current qualifier system.
You also see the draw Kerry have had. Wouldn't happen. They'd have either qualified through the National draw, or be facing off against 1 of the teams that did get to the final 4 of the national draw.
No qualifiers. Probably makes scheduling easier. Probably more interesting for fans. The national draw isn't a losers tournament like the qualifiers.
Provincial championships regain more of their do or die aspect. If a team is out of the National draw they need to win their province to keep their season alive." Only tweak I'd make here is that - while I'd have the strongest Muns/Conn teams needing to survive three rds like you have it - I'd give the 8 Lein/Uls SFlists byes to the Open Last 16 (requiring two wins).
A team qualifying from both streams to the AI SFs would typically go 5 wins undefeated (if Uls seeded its draw)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 29/07/2016 21:52:26
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Replying To Malonemagic: "Yeah but the likes of tipp have the advantage of winning one match in munster if they are automatic semi finalists and it puts them into round 4 of qualifiers. Laois won 1 match in leinster this year lost to dublin and were dumped into round 1 of qualifiers. Its a joke. As it stands next year with cork unseeded , its possible for tipp to play the winners of limerick or waterford to put themselves into round 4 of the qualifiers ie the last 12. Meanwhile in ulster a team like cavan could beat fermanagh in prelim round , monagahn in qf , lose semi to tyrone and enter qualifiers at round 2. Again i repeat its a joke." My neat solution to address your point -
Prov Champs playoff for only 2 front door AI QF berths.
While 2 beaten Prov Champs go to Qual Rd 3;
4 beaten Prov Finalists enter Rd 2;
and 8 beaten in SFs enter new Rd 1A to play the '3rd chance' 8 Qual Rd 1 losers.
So 4 Prov Champs (need to win 1 of 2) and 20 team Qual Rd 2 (need 2 of 2) is played 2 rds before the AI QFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 29/07/2016 21:58:15
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Replying To Whammo86: "For me the championship should be run as 2 separate competitions. A national draw run down to 4 teams and then the provincial championships as is, to also leave 4 teams.
Any teams left in both qualify for semis directly.
The teams left in 1 of the competitions play 1 round with the winners progressing to complete 4 team semi-finals.
It's way more fair than the current qualifier system.
You also see the draw Kerry have had. Wouldn't happen. They'd have either qualified through the National draw, or be facing off against 1 of the teams that did get to the final 4 of the national draw.
No qualifiers. Probably makes scheduling easier. Probably more interesting for fans. The national draw isn't a losers tournament like the qualifiers.
Provincial championships regain more of their do or die aspect. If a team is out of the National draw they need to win their province to keep their season alive." I think your idea (less waiting around) is better than the Carlow Plan - the latter might have Tyrone and Donegal entering seeded Open/Quals in Rd 3 (based on prior yr performance) - following either of them potentially going out in current yr Uls Prelim Rd.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 30/07/2016 19:23:48
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Replying To omahant: "I think your idea (less waiting around) is better than the Carlow Plan - the latter might have Tyrone and Donegal entering seeded Open/Quals in Rd 3 (based on prior yr performance) - following either of them potentially going out in current yr Uls Prelim Rd." I think it's got a lot of potential.
Really simple to follow.
Doesn't make the championship totally fair but I think the simplicity of it makes that worthwhile.
Easily scheduled, round of 32 gets played May bank holiday. Huge weekend of championship action.
Round of 16 fixtures get played around provincial to suit both teams as fairly as possible. There's only 8 games to arrange here.
Round of 8 gets played August bank holiday.
Lots of flexibility with the National draw. It can be expanded very easily to replace the league in future if it goes well.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4235 - 30/07/2016 20:00:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think it's got a lot of potential.
Really simple to follow.
Doesn't make the championship totally fair but I think the simplicity of it makes that worthwhile.
Easily scheduled, round of 32 gets played May bank holiday. Huge weekend of championship action.
Round of 16 fixtures get played around provincial to suit both teams as fairly as possible. There's only 8 games to arrange here.
Round of 8 gets played August bank holiday.
Lots of flexibility with the National draw. It can be expanded very easily to replace the league in future if it goes well." To address your not 'totally fair' - I'd give all 32 teams a two-stream berth, only AFTER the Prov QFs are played.
Prov SF 16 - unseeded to the A OR B sides of the Open as well, in line with their A or B side of Prov draw.
Non-Prov SF 16 - to the A AND B sides of the Open, completing 24 teams in each of Open A and Open B.
All three streams plays two rds to produce the AI Rd of 16 (4 + 6 + 6).
Teams earning two Rd of 16 berths get byes to AI QFs.
To give all a 3-match minimum - Play two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 30/07/2016 20:43:02
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I gave a bit more thought to this - while I like the idea and variety of national pairings, I wish to avoid 'Divs 1 v Div 4' matchups (blowouts) early on.
To meet this, I need three streams (A, B, C) in the Open, that is, four overall (incl the Provs). The Prov SF 16 are allocated to one Open stream (as well as the Prov SFs), with the Prov non-SF 16 allocated to two Open streams.
After Prov QFs are played (with Uls seeded), put strongest 8 of 16 Prov SFlists (based on NFL ranking, should be Div 1 teams) into Open A; and weakest 8 of 16 non-Prov SFlists (should be Div 4 teams) into 'BOTH' B and C.
Then, draw randomly 8 of the 'middle' 16 remaining to complete Open A; those undrawn to Open A from among the Prov non-SF 16 are allocated to BOTH B and C; those drawn to Open A from among the Prov non-SF 16 and those undrawn to Open A from among the Prov SF 16 are allocated once to either B or C (randomly) to complete 4 x 16-team streams (each county with two berths).
Two KO rds are played in each of the 4 x 16-team streams to determine the AI Rd of 16. Teams earnings two Rd of 16 berths receive byes to the AI QFs instead.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 01/08/2016 18:42:21
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