One thing I will say about Donegal vs. Tyrone is that I feel the talent we've brought through is of a higher quality and frequency than Donegal, where's the new Karl Lacey, where's the new Neil Gallagher, where's the new Eamon McGee, where's the new Colm McFadden...I can't see them, that is undermining the Donegal team but I assure you it's first deliberate statement

But have you really looked? I have had a glimpse, and I tell you something, Donegal have some serious players moving up since 2013/2014, maybe even before then. They lost Neil McGee against Fermanagh, and 19 year old Kieran Gillespie steps in against Monaghan in two games, and doesn't look out of place, the same 19 year old who took Paul Flynn completely out of a game in Croke park a couple of months back. Now he seems to be staying in. I've seen players of Neil Gallagher quality in Minor matches and U21 matches, I've seen half backs like Stephen McMenamin, who in my opinion would bring more intensity and pace to the table than Karl Lacey. Ryan McHugh was rated their best player in every game this season, said by some RTE pundits to have been the best player on the pitch in the Ulster final, this is 22 year old Ryan McHugh.

I feel like you're bringing things i've said on other threads into this one particularly the point about us having been rebuilding, you're right that was my view...now you point it out to me it does seem rather silly. I'll ask though if Donegal are on an upward trend, where's it upward from? Jim brought through most of the lads in rebuilding after the AI victory. I hope you're aware the team that faced Dublin in 2014 and the team that faced Tyrone in the Ulster final were very very similar, the big names are the same on both teams (minus Durcan).
You can't start a rebuild with the rebuilds finest moment.
Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts:78 - 22/07/2016 18:38:03

I think the difference with Sundays starting lineup from the 2014 v Dublin starting line-up was Martin O'Reilly, Paddy McBrearty, Eoin McHugh, Martin McElhinney and McGinley didn't start against Dublin in 2014. You ask where is upward from? I thought in 2014 Donegal were trending downwards, even when they won Ulster and beat Dublin and went to the All Ireland final, I felt Colm McFadden, David Walsh, Rory Kavanagh were probably finished, and Neil Gallagher and Christy Toye were on limited time. If you look at them now, they look sharper and have more pace than they did that season, but they need to give attacking players like Ciaran Thompson a proper run to achieve the required scoring.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 23/07/2016 02:32:03    1888403

Gary, fair points on a few players but then you seem to lose the message of what you were trying to say initially in that final paragraph.
Kieran Gillespie did play very well in the absence of McGee, but sure there wasn't a whisper that he'd start in his place therefore i'd be lead to think they don't see him on that level themselves. So yeah good enough but a lesser replacement at the minute.

The 19 year old that kept Paul Flynn at bay...did you see the final score? You cant praise the defending of a player or team in a match in which said player and team are smashed, maybe it seemed like he had the best of Flynn because that was the gameplan for Dublin..who knows, it was certainly a bad day for Donegal football though.
On minors as a Tyrone man I know they're great to have but they don't always come through, I want to see them prove it in the championship but then again that's my preference on rating players. Ryan McHugh is obviously a future all star, he nearly won the game single handedly..immense

Gary of the 5 names you've mentioned there Mc Ginley would not come near the number 1 jersey if Durcan wanted it, he's the best keeper in the country and he's a cult figure in Donegal. McElhinney didn't start, it was McGee remember. McHugh, McBrearty and O Reilly....all great players no qualms with those 3.

2 years on Colm McFadden, who couldn't be more done is still getting game time....I mean was he ever the man to come off the bench and win the match. I don't think so anyway. Rory Kavanagh still starts for Donegal, the less I say about Kavanagh the better to be honest! Donegal fans are pining for Neil Gallagher and Toye was one of their better players on the day.

Yes they're playing better than last year so if that's the point they're moving upward from that's a fair point, I don't think the redevelopment of this starting team and squad is comparable to Tyrone's turnover....I find the Donegal transition quite like our own following 2008. I feel Tyrone shunted the growth of the new team by not filtering through young players sooner and sticking to AI winners who weren't playing like they were in those days anymore. Always the same, father time is undefeated and we gaelic football seems to have a harder time with that than most, to see Gooch out there these days as a shadow of his former self is just sad. I could say the same for some of these Donegal men

Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts: 237 - 23/07/2016 14:38:44    1888524

GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 23/07/2016 21:35:24    1888815

cacsmckilly (Tyrone) - Posts: 1294 - 23/07/2016 21:59:28    1888845

cacsmckilly (Tyrone) - Posts: 1294 - 23/07/2016 22:16:24    1888855

Yes they're playing better than last year so if that's the point they're moving upward from that's a fair point, I don't think the redevelopment of this starting team and squad is comparable to Tyrone's turnover....I find the Donegal transition quite like our own following 2008. I feel Tyrone shunted the growth of the new team by not filtering through young players sooner and sticking to AI winners who weren't playing like they were in those days anymore. Always the same, father time is undefeated and we gaelic football seems to have a harder time with that than most, to see Gooch out there these days as a shadow of his former self is just sad. I could say the same for some of these Donegal men

Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts:81 - 23/07/2016 14:38:44 1888524

Donegal's starting team has an average age of 25, and only 3 starting players currently aged 30 or over 30. Those 3 players are Eamon McGee, Karl Lacey and Rory Kavanagh, and there are 2 additional subs over 30 in Christy Toye and Colm McFadden, with Neil Gallagher missing this entire season. They then have Frank McGlynn and Neil McGee both at 29, with Anthony Thompson at 28, key figures from 4 years ago in 2012.

In my honest opinion, Donegal could cut all of their over 30 players (Subs & starters) and replaced them with players who have been in and around the senior panel for 2 or 3 years now, and the team would not dip in form, might actually improve. The next 3 players is where the real challenge is, as Neil McGee and Frank McGlynn are core players and Anthony Thompson is also valuable player under pressure.

Where Tyrone left it too late back around 2008/2009, Donegal seem to have a better system for integrating players, which partly why the likes of Ryan McHugh, MacNiallais, O'Reilly, Eoin McHugh and Kieran Gillespie have made the transition so seamlessly and are all becoming or have become key players. It's easy to forget that players like Hugh McFadden, Ciaran Thompson, Stephen McBrearty, Ban Gallagher and Stephen McMenamin have already made their senior debuts and have with the senior panel since 2015.

I think Donegal are ahead in this regard, they clearly have a steady replacement system in place, with their entire starting forward six aged 23 or under with the exception of 26 year old Michael Murphy. Some players may require slightly longer, but If you look at all the players they've introduced since 2013/2014, they are easing these players in with the view to a seamless transition.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 24/07/2016 01:46:05    1888933

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 24/07/2016 10:33:34    1889007

All fair points Gary, the only thing i'd say is that Tyrone of 03 was not Tyrone of 05 and different again in 08.

The key men remained but the parts around changed, they got the last drops out of the like of Dooher, Mc Guigan, Mc Ginley, Jordan probably Mulligan as well. Stephen O Neill for example only started 1 final and that was in 2005, I think that just shows the turnover in the Tyrone team during the golden era.

It's a term used in american football a lot but there's a difference between retooling and rebuilding to me that's to say as a champion you have to retool and stay fresh even improve the team where possible, it demands changing the parts around your main players maybe even changing one or two of the main players along the way. I felt Tyrone were pretty good at retooling last decade and were always fairly sure of exactly what they were doing (it didn't hurt that our big men came to the fore at the right times and it never hurt having Cavanagh who was there every time we needed him, even in losing efforts)

To me with Donegal it feels they don't know if they're retooling or rebuilding, it's probably a lot harder to retool for a system which is currently being found out by the better teams, it's probably harder to retool for a manager that didn't create the system he's trying to run. Another thing is that I don't think the defensive system plays to the strength of the main men on the Donegal team at the minute, this is a team with the McHughs, McNiallais, McBrearty and Murphy and the only way they want to move the ball forward in attack is by going backwards at the point of attack rather than forwards, rather than trying to ride the tackle and watch the havoc a few broken tackles create in a defense, rather than running into space at pace with a skillful pass it's just lateral and backwards

The 2012 wasn't as skillful as this one and if they could ever get Mark McHugh playing to that level again all those players breaking forward would be something to watch. I have to think Jim implemented the system knowing that the less football skill his players had to display the better as some of them have little to none, as long as you could get the ball linked to Murphy and Mc Fadden 10-15 times a game the defensive system did the rest of the work! They have all the skill and pace in the world now and they still want to play protect the house football.

The retool of this Donegal team is long complete, it's now time to rebuild the system based on the players on the team. One final thing I'll say is that Donegal aren't and can't be ahead of last decades Tyrone team as in the timespan of both teams starting from their first AI victory Tyrone already had 2 this being the 4th year since Donegals AI in 2012

Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts: 237 - 24/07/2016 15:05:29    1889145

The retool of this Donegal team is long complete, it's now time to rebuild the system based on the players on the team. One final thing I'll say is that Donegal aren't and can't be ahead of last decades Tyrone team as in the timespan of both teams starting from their first AI victory Tyrone already had 2 this being the 4th year since Donegals AI in 2012

Seansy48 (Tyrone) - Posts:82 - 24/07/2016 15:05:29 1

Sorry, I didn't mean "ahead" in terms of Donegal since 2011 being a better side than Tyrone of the Noughties or something like that, I'm not a fan of comparing sides from different era's, and you're right in that Tyrone's record is clearly better.

No I meant ahead in terms of constantly bring 2 or 3 players through every year to the seniors. If you watch the Donegal team closely, Rory Gallagher has continued this JMG system of bring talent through. Had Ross Wherity(2013) and Luke Keaney (2014) remained in the panel/Ireland, and Darrach O'Connor (2014) not missed the last year or so with a cruciate, then the Donegal transition would probably be that bit more noticeable.

I also agree with you on the system needing to maybe adapt to the players they are bringing through now,

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/07/2016 01:29:58    1889474