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Replying To keithlemon: "Ros1 and Whammo - you've both said that winning the provincials means something regardless of how your county performs in the rest of the championship, local rivalries, bragging rights, how winning the provincial means more than some 2nd rate contest etc.
So why, from what I'm proposing, makes the provincial a lesser competition?
Would you agree that winning the provincial in the current format doesn't give any advantage to the winners in the latter stages of the All Ireland?" Under your plans the provincial championships would differ little from the McKenna, fbd league
Etc. The best route way to win an all Ireland is through winning your province it has been shown time and time again.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 20/07/2016 12:27:59
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Under your plans the provincial championships would differ little from the McKenna, fbd league
Etc. The best route way to win an all Ireland is through winning your province it has been shown time and time again.
Under my plan the provincial champions would get rewarded i.e. a bye to the next round or bonus points. A number of winners in the all ireland champions have come through the back door since the qualifiers started without winning their province so I wouldn't agree with your last point. For example Tyrone 05, 08, Kerry 06, 09, Cork 2010. Under the current format there is no reward for winning your provincial title, unlike those who have been able to learn from a previous loss
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 13:26:19
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Replying To keithlemon: "Under your plans the provincial championships would differ little from the McKenna, fbd league
Etc. The best route way to win an all Ireland is through winning your province it has been shown time and time again.
Under my plan the provincial champions would get rewarded i.e. a bye to the next round or bonus points. A number of winners in the all ireland champions have come through the back door since the qualifiers started without winning their province so I wouldn't agree with your last point. For example Tyrone 05, 08, Kerry 06, 09, Cork 2010. Under the current format there is no reward for winning your provincial title, unlike those who have been able to learn from a previous loss" As I've said a league format won't work for the main championship. There can't be dead rubber games at the end of the season. Teams won't be fielding, players will go back to their clubs.
Provincial championships have to be scheduled at the height of the season or they will lose their relevance.
If it were up to me I would remove the qualifiers and replace them with tiered championships where the team winning plays at a higher level that year.
So division 1 has 10 teams
Division 2 has 10 teams
Division 3 has 12 teams.
Division 3 gets finished earliest, then plays the Junior championships. Top 4 in division gets byes to QF. Winner of Junior qualifies for Intermediate.
Division 2 gets finished during Junior championships. Top 4 in division plus Junior champion gets byes to quarterfinals. Winner of intermediate championships gets a place in All Ireland series.
Division 1 gets completed whilst intermediate championship is played.
Provincial championships are played in parallel to the lower tier competitions and division 1.
Provincial champions join the division 1 teams and the intermediate champion in the AI series.
There'll be between 11 and 15 teams depending on how many provincial champions are already qualified.
If a provincial champion is qualified twice they get a bye to the quarters.
The best placed non-provincial champion from division 1 also receives a bye to the quarterfinals.
The remaining division 1 teams, intermediate champion and any other provincial champion from division 2 or 3 then plays the All Ireland playoff round.
3 up 3 down between grades to include the championship winners.
League gets more important, lower division teams have a chance to win silverware whilst still having a second route to the All Ireland series.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/07/2016 14:14:34
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Replying To keithlemon: "Under your plans the provincial championships would differ little from the McKenna, fbd league
Etc. The best route way to win an all Ireland is through winning your province it has been shown time and time again.
Under my plan the provincial champions would get rewarded i.e. a bye to the next round or bonus points. A number of winners in the all ireland champions have come through the back door since the qualifiers started without winning their province so I wouldn't agree with your last point. For example Tyrone 05, 08, Kerry 06, 09, Cork 2010. Under the current format there is no reward for winning your provincial title, unlike those who have been able to learn from a previous loss" So 10 out of 15 have been provincial champions plus each of the last 5.
Seems like an advantage to me.
Makes sense as the provincial champions get a bye to the quarterfinals.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/07/2016 14:29:43
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Whammo - (include Galway in 01 in there as well)
You also have to account for the number of losing finalist teams who got there via the back door and not through winning their province: Kerry 02 and 08, Armagh 03, Cork 07, Down 2010
I don't have the numbers to hand but I'd also wonder about the number of provincial winners who got further than the quarter finals
Hardly paints winning your province as the BEST way to win an All Ireland
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 15:25:05
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Since 2001,
10 out of a possible 15 AI winners won their province. 66%
19 out of a possible 30 AI finalists won their province. A 63% success rate
37 out of a possible 60 semi finalists won their province. 62% Success rate.
There have been 2 AI finals where both were qualifier teams, and 6 where they were both provincial winners. The other 7 were one of each.
That's nearly 2 to 1 in favour of the provincial winners.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1647 - 20/07/2016 15:57:56
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Thanks for that CastleBravo
Am I right in saying those numbers are only changing in favour for provincial winners in the last 4 or 5 seasons, especially with Dublin, Mayo and Kerry's dominance in their provinces? If you look before 2011 it makes for a poor turnout for provincial winners.
Take 2010 for example, no provincial winners were in the semi final and I think 2008 was the other year where only one provincial winner competed in the semi final.
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 16:13:45
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Only 7 out of 15 finals where both teams won their province says a lot as well, especially when you consider that up until 2011 that number was even lower.
Before the 2011 season that number would have read 2 out of 10.
The dominance from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo in their provinces over the last 5 seasons has muddied the waters somewhat. It also proves that there has been little or no competition in these 3 provinces during that time (2011-2015) with Kerry only losing once in Munster in that time (2012)
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 16:24:12
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Replying To keithlemon: "Only 7 out of 15 finals where both teams won their province says a lot as well, especially when you consider that up until 2011 that number was even lower.
Before the 2011 season that number would have read 2 out of 10.
The dominance from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo in their provinces over the last 5 seasons has muddied the waters somewhat. It also proves that there has been little or no competition in these 3 provinces during that time (2011-2015) with Kerry only losing once in Munster in that time (2012)" There are 28 teams enter the qualifiers every year.
Only 4 emerge to the quarterfinals. Every provincial champion gets to the quarterfinals, the provincial championships matter.
7 out of 15 all provincial winner finals is good.
There's equal representation between back door and provincial champions at the quarter final stage.
If every team has an equal chance of getting to the final you'd expect 1 in 4 to be contested by 2 provincial champions it's nearly 1 in 2.
Provincial winners are performing better than average in the All Ireland series than back door teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/07/2016 17:52:28
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If every province had 50% representation in the final 16 it would be fair for all.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7879 - 20/07/2016 20:18:48
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If every province had 50% representation in the final 16 it would be fair for all.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4762 - 20/07/2016 20:18:48Why would it? There is hugely different standards between each of the provinces. Not all teams in each province are equal so all shouldn't get same number of places in the last 16
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/07/2016 22:11:37
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Ok lets say we get rid of provincial championships.
We can keep the local rivalry aspect as follows:
Every year we divide the 32 counties into 3 regional leagues. 1 of 10 and 2 of 11.
The regional divisions work on a rotating basis.
The 31 Irish counties get divided into 9 geographical groupings.
North
Antrim
Donegal
Derry
North East
Down
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
North West
Sligo
Leitrim
Fermanagh
Tyrone
East
Louth
Meath
Dublin
West
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
South West
Kerry
Clare
Limerick
South
Cork
Tipperary
Waterford
South East
Wicklow
Kildare
Carlow
Wexford
Midlands
Longford
Westmeath
Offaly
Laois
These groups are each joined with 2 other neighbouring groups to form a division. London is then added to one of these divisions to even the numbers.
So the rotation works by starting at one of the 8 cardinal points, go clockwise 2 regions. The 2 regions left at the end join with the Midlands group.
So one season would see North, North East, East in a division. South East, South, South West in a division. West, North West, Midlands in a division.
Antrim, Derry, Donegal, Armagh, Down, Cavan, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin grouped together.
Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow, Wexford, Cork, Tipp, Waterford, Kerry, Clare, Limerick grouped together.
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois
London joins one of the first 2 groups.
Teams play every team once.
Teams are then seeded for the knockout rounds based on their league position.
There are 9 A seeds Top 3 from each group
They qualify directly to All Ireland last 16
14 B seeds 4th-7th from the 10 team group 4th-8th from the 11 team groups. 7 teams progress to last 16.
Bottom 3 teams from each group are eliminated.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 21/07/2016 15:20:22
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Replying To Whammo86: "Ok lets say we get rid of provincial championships.
We can keep the local rivalry aspect as follows:
Every year we divide the 32 counties into 3 regional leagues. 1 of 10 and 2 of 11.
The regional divisions work on a rotating basis.
The 31 Irish counties get divided into 9 geographical groupings.
North
Antrim
Donegal
Derry
North East
Down
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
North West
Sligo
Leitrim
Fermanagh
Tyrone
East
Louth
Meath
Dublin
West
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
South West
Kerry
Clare
Limerick
South
Cork
Tipperary
Waterford
South East
Wicklow
Kildare
Carlow
Wexford
Midlands
Longford
Westmeath
Offaly
Laois
These groups are each joined with 2 other neighbouring groups to form a division. London is then added to one of these divisions to even the numbers.
So the rotation works by starting at one of the 8 cardinal points, go clockwise 2 regions. The 2 regions left at the end join with the Midlands group.
So one season would see North, North East, East in a division. South East, South, South West in a division. West, North West, Midlands in a division.
Antrim, Derry, Donegal, Armagh, Down, Cavan, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin grouped together.
Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow, Wexford, Cork, Tipp, Waterford, Kerry, Clare, Limerick grouped together.
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois
London joins one of the first 2 groups.
Teams play every team once.
Teams are then seeded for the knockout rounds based on their league position.
There are 9 A seeds Top 3 from each group
They qualify directly to All Ireland last 16
14 B seeds 4th-7th from the 10 team group 4th-8th from the 11 team groups. 7 teams progress to last 16.
Bottom 3 teams from each group are eliminated." Don't get rid if them. Run them open draw from April to early June completely separate from the All Ireland. Then an open draw All Ireland. All teams guaranteed 2 championships games as it is now.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7369 - 21/07/2016 15:44:06
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Don't get rid if them. Run them open draw from April to early June completely separate from the All Ireland. Then an open draw All Ireland. All teams guaranteed 2 championships games as it is now." I actually agree with you.
I was just throwing out an idea for a league based championship.
Kept teams playing games against local rivals.
Gave weaker counties more games against stronger counties.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 21/07/2016 17:37:45
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Money talks so provincials here to stay
sob (Meath) - Posts: 492 - 21/07/2016 18:40:56
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Replying To Whammo86: "Ok lets say we get rid of provincial championships.
We can keep the local rivalry aspect as follows:
Every year we divide the 32 counties into 3 regional leagues. 1 of 10 and 2 of 11.
The regional divisions work on a rotating basis.
The 31 Irish counties get divided into 9 geographical groupings.
North
Antrim
Donegal
Derry
North East
Down
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
North West
Sligo
Leitrim
Fermanagh
Tyrone
East
Louth
Meath
Dublin
West
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
South West
Kerry
Clare
Limerick
South
Cork
Tipperary
Waterford
South East
Wicklow
Kildare
Carlow
Wexford
Midlands
Longford
Westmeath
Offaly
Laois
These groups are each joined with 2 other neighbouring groups to form a division. London is then added to one of these divisions to even the numbers.
So the rotation works by starting at one of the 8 cardinal points, go clockwise 2 regions. The 2 regions left at the end join with the Midlands group.
So one season would see North, North East, East in a division. South East, South, South West in a division. West, North West, Midlands in a division.
Antrim, Derry, Donegal, Armagh, Down, Cavan, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin grouped together.
Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow, Wexford, Cork, Tipp, Waterford, Kerry, Clare, Limerick grouped together.
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois
London joins one of the first 2 groups.
Teams play every team once.
Teams are then seeded for the knockout rounds based on their league position.
There are 9 A seeds Top 3 from each group
They qualify directly to All Ireland last 16
14 B seeds 4th-7th from the 10 team group 4th-8th from the 11 team groups. 7 teams progress to last 16.
Bottom 3 teams from each group are eliminated." I like this - yet another variation of the 'wheel'.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 22/07/2016 16:45:03
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If a plan is found to protect the provinces income it may change, until then we are stuck with the same system. Leinster, Munster and Ulster in particular would never vote for change currrently.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 22/07/2016 17:38:25
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The local rivalry that some are talking about keeping has brought in what about 40,000 total spectators to this year's Munster SF Championship and no meaningful games in Leinster.
A Championship based on League Standings guarantees top games and has to be the way forward. The only question is how long it takes the GAA to realise it. 10, 20, 30 maybe 50 years.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 22/07/2016 19:09:21
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Replying To sam1884: "If a plan is found to protect the provinces income it may change, until then we are stuck with the same system. Leinster, Munster and Ulster in particular would never vote for change currrently." With all the talk, I still see a Round of 16 as a good option. Qualifier Round 1 can be held on the same weekends as provincial semi-finals. Qualifier Round 2 can be held on the same weekends as provincial finals. Have the 8 provincial finalists and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners enter the Round of 16.
Provincial championships aren't going to be separated from the All-Ireland series. Even if they were, you'd have losing preliminary round and losing quarter-finalists waiting a number of weeks. Running Q1 and Q2 in parallel to provincial semi-finals and finals keeps all teams active and maintains link of provincial to All-Ireland series.
As I've said before, reward provincial champions with guaranteed home game against a qualifier. Draw provincial runners-up against the remaining 4 qualifiers with separate draw to determine home team.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7879 - 22/07/2016 19:54:02
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Replying To tyroneed: "The local rivalry that some are talking about keeping has brought in what about 40,000 total spectators to this year's Munster SF Championship and no meaningful games in Leinster.
A Championship based on League Standings guarantees top games and has to be the way forward. The only question is how long it takes the GAA to realise it. 10, 20, 30 maybe 50 years." When the top teams are in different groups, the big clashes still won't come until the latter knockout stage.
There was always going to be some year Kerry and Cork would not meet.
I would be in favour of provincial groups but I can't see them coming in:
Munster: 1 group of 6, top 2 into provincial final.
Connaught: 1 group of 5, top 2 into final.
Ulster + London: 2 groups of 5, top 2 into semi-finals.
Leinster: 1 group of 6 and 1 group of 5, top 2 into semi-finals.
4 Provincial runners-up and 4 losing semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster playoff to join 4 Provincial winners in the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7879 - 22/07/2016 21:03:59
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