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Replying To galwaygal9: "Provisionals turning into a joke in both hurling nd football Munster hurling about all that's keeping it alive!
Leinster football Dublin so fare ahead of everyone it's a joke pretty much same in Munster football kerry really pulling away from cork nd tipp somewhat!
I know Mayo beat Galway this year but how long have Mayo dominated for ulster football cat to watch because they all play tactical nd it's tactical against tactical!
Hurling provincial the same Leinster Kilkenny winning every year Galway put it up to them every so often just shows how much a joke when u hav a Munster team playing in Leinster come on gaa stop living in past!
Got to go to league format division one nd two no other sport in world is as uneven as the provincials?" 'ulster football cat to watch because they all play tactical nd it's tactical against tactical!'
Don't really understand the above quote but I am assuming you mean that every game in Ulster is basically a tactical game of chess. This is generalising in the extreme.
Name another game in Ulster this year bar the final which was played this way.
Was it Tyrone's 2-17 - 5-18 win over Cavan in the semi final or Donegal's 0-17 -2-10 win over Monaghan or was it possibly Cavans 2-16 -0-14 victory over Armagh in the quarter finals?
Jesus I just wish people could start thinking for themselves instead of repeating what they hear on the telly.
Wally (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 19/07/2016 14:11:07
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Replying To Whammo86: "Great post" Thanks whammo yours too
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 19/07/2016 14:11:34
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Replying To keithlemon: "ROS1 - Couple of things on your post that doesn't make sense to me. I haven't fully specified a format, I think you're coming to some conclusions about a format I'm not actually proposing. I said 2 teams could get promoted but I'd be open to 4, maybe more, I'm just working in the hypothetical here. However, I do believe that there needs to be a cut off between the teams that can realistically compete against one group of teams than another. Going by your logic, it's better off that say Waterford, for example, consistently get beaten by a cricket score by Kerry and bring in a crowd than for Waterford to perhaps have a realistic chance to win some games. Would you not think that maybe if Waterford managed to pull some wins together during the summer months, it might just give them some hope for the following season, give them something to build on? Training all year to play 2 matches in the summer won't inspire people in their counties to make the sacrifices into the future but give them something realistically attainable and that might change. You mentioned that my layout would diminish the chances for the lower teams to develop even more so? How could it be worse than the current format?
It's not just local rivalry why big big crowds are attending McKenna cup games, there's also a huge appetite out there, not just in Ulster, but amongst a lot of county supporters who just want to see their teams play competitive games?
The example I used for hurling was to show that there is a tiered system. Hurling is a much more difficult game to play compared to football so naturally the gulf between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier would be greater. Hurling support in counties is quite selective too. However, would you see any benefit if the likes of Carlow, Derry and Mayo played in the senior hurling championship and got destroyed by the likes of Kilkenny or Tipp just so they can have that one chance to win against the big boys? Of course not, so why do we do it in football?
There is no magic formula to fix the championship. People on this site have gone on at lengths to state what advantages one crowd has over the other but the fact is that there is a gulf in ability between the top teams and the lower teams. Just because Longford got a couple of wins this year against some higher ranked teams doesn't mean that the current format works. I'm not saying that my hypothetical proposal would work either but it wouldn't be any worse than what we currently have" There are the qualifiers to allow teams pull a couple of wins together.
Waterford lost to Leitrim.
If you're trying to get a format in place to suit Waterford then I think you're focus is wrong.
This season has been a success for the current structures.
Westmeath, Tipp into provincial finals.
Longford, Clare, Derry getting qualifier runs going.
There are relative successes like these every year.
The system could be improved but I don't think removing the provincial championship or segregation of the All Ireland is the answer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 19/07/2016 14:42:17
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Giving half the number of counties from each province a place in the final 16 will be very fair.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7879 - 19/07/2016 15:47:02
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I was only using Waterford as an example. You could easily throw the likes of Carlow, Leitrim, Offaly, Wicklow, Antrim in there and it would read the same.
I don't understand how you can deem this season a success simply because there were a few surprise results for the likes of Clare and Longford. Surely proof of a success for the existing structures would hinge on teams outside the top 2 divisions either winning a provincial or progressing as far as, if not further than, the quarter finals.
Attendances don't appear to be improving. There was a terribly small number at the Tipp victory against Cork, likewise the attendance at the Leinster final just as a couple of example. I'm sure we'll get decent numbers from the quarter finals onwards but we're waiting until August until we get some decent football.
You said that the current system could be improved upon - How do you improve the current system Whammo?
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 19/07/2016 16:07:47
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Replying To keithlemon: "ROS1 - Couple of things on your post that doesn't make sense to me. I haven't fully specified a format, I think you're coming to some conclusions about a format I'm not actually proposing. I said 2 teams could get promoted but I'd be open to 4, maybe more, I'm just working in the hypothetical here. However, I do believe that there needs to be a cut off between the teams that can realistically compete against one group of teams than another. Going by your logic, it's better off that say Waterford, for example, consistently get beaten by a cricket score by Kerry and bring in a crowd than for Waterford to perhaps have a realistic chance to win some games. Would you not think that maybe if Waterford managed to pull some wins together during the summer months, it might just give them some hope for the following season, give them something to build on? Training all year to play 2 matches in the summer won't inspire people in their counties to make the sacrifices into the future but give them something realistically attainable and that might change. You mentioned that my layout would diminish the chances for the lower teams to develop even more so? How could it be worse than the current format?
It's not just local rivalry why big big crowds are attending McKenna cup games, there's also a huge appetite out there, not just in Ulster, but amongst a lot of county supporters who just want to see their teams play competitive games?
The example I used for hurling was to show that there is a tiered system. Hurling is a much more difficult game to play compared to football so naturally the gulf between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier would be greater. Hurling support in counties is quite selective too. However, would you see any benefit if the likes of Carlow, Derry and Mayo played in the senior hurling championship and got destroyed by the likes of Kilkenny or Tipp just so they can have that one chance to win against the big boys? Of course not, so why do we do it in football?
There is no magic formula to fix the championship. People on this site have gone on at lengths to state what advantages one crowd has over the other but the fact is that there is a gulf in ability between the top teams and the lower teams. Just because Longford got a couple of wins this year against some higher ranked teams doesn't mean that the current format works. I'm not saying that my hypothetical proposal would work either but it wouldn't be any worse than what we currently have" If you look at this year championship six divison 1 teams have been beaten by lower tier teams. Teams outside the top handfull are very similar.The likes of Meath are alot closer to sligo then the are to the dubs yet under your system you have Meath and dubs in the same tier as Meath and sligo in a different. I don't see how losing to tipp instead of Kerry would benefit Waterford. The main difference with hurling is most counties that play in the lower tiers hurling is very much a minority sport. Five of the ulster teams were not competitive this year in ulster, if derry were playing galway instead of tryone in the mckenna cup the crowds would be alot less. There would be no media attention given to the lower tier, poor crowds and would make it difficult to attract sponsors which would widen the already that exists between the haves and have nots. If you promote 4 teams up every year it's likely most of these teams will come straight back down. players who regularly come down to leitrim from Dublin for training come in the hope that the night be able to win a Connacht title the don't to play weaker teams the far side of the country from team.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 19/07/2016 16:47:55
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If you get rid of the provincial championship you will truly kill the game off,I'll explain Munster you have tipp and clare at the moment improving,there only chance of a title is a munster chanpionship,my own county came so close a few times and just fell short but we had no chance in hall of winning a all Ireland
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 779 - 19/07/2016 17:30:55
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cityman - I get what you're saying but do you think it's more likely that Limerick can win a Munster football title in the next 10 years than it would be for them to win a second tier all-ireland championship? As long as Kerry are in there I just don't see that happening.
I know people will say well look at how close they came in 2004 and even 2010 but are 2 close matches in god knows how long enough reason to say that they should keep trying with the same formula?
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 19/07/2016 18:09:13
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Replying To MedwayIrish: "Not one hurley, not one sliotar!! :)" The Provisionals disarmed post 1998 agreement. The provincials are up for debate on the forum.
I would like to see a round robin system in each province, with the top two sides qualifying for provincial finals. The back door system would go in this scenario.
DG of Leinster Council proposed a similar idea, but it did not get through Congress.
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1749 - 19/07/2016 19:01:15
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I would keep the Provincial Championships, but would change the following
- Compact Provincial Championships to 6-8 weeks in total time from start to finish.
- Scrap replay's, instead play 20 minutes ET with sudden death after ET, where next to score wins.
- Demolish the Qualifiers as we know them, Creating a new back door system.
NEW BACK DOOR SYSTEM ( Based on 2015 AI championships)
Provincial Final runners up = 4
Provincial SF runners up = 8
Provincial QF & Prelim runners up = 16
I would create 2 different Qualifier Competitions which would produce 8 teams in total, re-introduce the 4 highest placed League teams to have exited both. And then collectively with the 4 Provincial Champions, have a 16 team/4 Round All Ireland Championship.
16 Team's who exit Provincial QF,
- play Round 1 with 8 winners emerging,
- play Round 2 with 4 winners emerging.
- play Round 3 against the 4 losing Provincial Finalists.
4 teams emerge.
8 Teams who exit Provincial SF
- Play Round 1 against other team who exited SF.
4 teams emerge.
4 Highest Placed in National League who have exited
Of all the teams at this stage who have now exited the Championship, the 4 who finished highest in the National League will be given a wild card into the All Ireland Last 16.
ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP:
The 4 Provincial Champions would be kept in different strands of the All Ireland Championship, ensuring they could not meet until the All Ireland Semi Final. Otherwise it would be an open draw, although keeping sides who have previously played apart if at all possible. The Round of 16 would offer Provincial Champions one final advantage, they would play that game at Home!!!
It would also offer teams who have exited Provincial Final's a bit more time to recover and refocus, making for a more competitive All Ireland Championship.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/07/2016 19:20:57
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Replying To keithlemon: "cityman - I get what you're saying but do you think it's more likely that Limerick can win a Munster football title in the next 10 years than it would be for them to win a second tier all-ireland championship? As long as Kerry are in there I just don't see that happening.
I know people will say well look at how close they came in 2004 and even 2010 but are 2 close matches in god knows how long enough reason to say that they should keep trying with the same formula?" I've a good friend playing for Antrim, who won the Tommy Murphy cup. He's told me that the run to the Ulster final in 2009 meant much more to him.
I can see why.
When I was younger I wanted to play for Antrim in the Ulster championship. Those were the games I attended and got the thrill out of.
I remember going to 2 Tommy Murphy cup finals as an adult, as an excuse for the craic in Dublin. There weren't many families going. We were not invested in the result in the same way as we'd have been for the Ulster championship.
We knew what the competition meant. It was a competition to find the 25th best team in Ireland. You can dress it up as an 'All Ireland' or a 'championship' title buts it's just not.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/07/2016 00:17:15
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Replying To Whammo86: "I've a good friend playing for Antrim, who won the Tommy Murphy cup. He's told me that the run to the Ulster final in 2009 meant much more to him.
I can see why.
When I was younger I wanted to play for Antrim in the Ulster championship. Those were the games I attended and got the thrill out of.
I remember going to 2 Tommy Murphy cup finals as an adult, as an excuse for the craic in Dublin. There weren't many families going. We were not invested in the result in the same way as we'd have been for the Ulster championship.
We knew what the competition meant. It was a competition to find the 25th best team in Ireland. You can dress it up as an 'All Ireland' or a 'championship' title buts it's just not." The B Championship that didn't make congress kept teams in the provincial championship. A provincial final place was to be rewarded with a qualifier spot.
My own personal preference would have been a Round of 16 and the proposed B Championship.
Enter the 8 lowest placed non-provincial finalists based on the league into a second tier championship.
The middle 16 should enter a play-off round with the 8 winners joining the 8 provincial finalists in a Round of 16.
The winner of the second tier championship should be guaranteed a playoff spot in the following year.
This idea isn't too far removed from current structures.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7879 - 20/07/2016 08:20:51
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But I'm not proposing that the provincials are got rid off altogether, simply that they be played in the spring instead of as part the main competition in the summer. Surely that would satisfy those who still strive to win a provincial title?
Since the introduction of the qualifiers, the provincial title is no longer the main route to all-ireland success, therefore I really don't see the harm if they're moved to earlier in the year with the main competition held in the summer. Winning your province should still provide the winning team with some benefit for the summer championship like 2 or 3 bonus points
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 09:10:21
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Replying To keithlemon: "But I'm not proposing that the provincials are got rid off altogether, simply that they be played in the spring instead of as part the main competition in the summer. Surely that would satisfy those who still strive to win a provincial title?
Since the introduction of the qualifiers, the provincial title is no longer the main route to all-ireland success, therefore I really don't see the harm if they're moved to earlier in the year with the main competition held in the summer. Winning your province should still provide the winning team with some benefit for the summer championship like 2 or 3 bonus points" That would turn the provincial championships in something like the Ulster hurling championships which still take place but has completely lost there importance. No one could care less about winning a b title.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 20/07/2016 09:18:08
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Ros1 and Whammo - you've both said that winning the provincials means something regardless of how your county performs in the rest of the championship, local rivalries, bragging rights, how winning the provincial means more than some 2nd rate contest etc.
So why, from what I'm proposing, makes the provincial a lesser competition?
Would you agree that winning the provincial in the current format doesn't give any advantage to the winners in the latter stages of the All Ireland?
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 09:42:11
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For me the Provincials as part of the main football championship have to go, definitely retain them and reward the winners with preferable championship seedings but remove them from the actual championship.
The Provincials are both outdated and unfair, for example this year, Kerry played 2 training sessions to qualify for the AI QFs, where as it took Tyrone 4 games, Donegal have played 4 grueling games and they're still not there yet!
Every year I'm finding the championship less and less interesting until the AI Quarter-Finals and sometimes even the Semi-Finals, Dublin v Mayo last year was the first non Meath game I got properly excited over.
As for an alternative structure, I've given my opinion on that many times here so I won't prolong this post even more, but I would reiterate my complete opposition to splitting the championship into tiers. Give every team an equal go at the main competition first and then have a secondary knockout if there's interest, but condemning Div3 and Div4 teams to a B championship against their expressed wishes would do nothing but damage to Gaelic Football in those counties and the idea shouldn't be remotely entertained.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/07/2016 09:56:20
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Htaem - If you give everyone a chance at winning the main competition, you're still left with the problem of having a number of useless games. If that's the case then I don't see what benefit a secondary competition is.
However, giving the winners along with the other top 2 of the secondary contest some sort of benefit for the following season i.e. to play in the 1st tier contest, gives it relevance. This is similar to what McGuinness was alluding to which to me makes the most sense. You'll have much more games with teams playing at similar levels while there is incentive for teams to win the 2nd tier contest.
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 10:47:38
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Munster hurling is all that matters anyway ;)
This year has proved that Leinster is the only problem but KK and Dublin won't dominate for ever either. The Dubs have a good few important players 28+
Likewise the imaginary conveyor belt in KK isn't running quite as good as it was. They don't have a massive squad.
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 20/07/2016 11:09:42
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Replying To keithlemon: "Htaem - If you give everyone a chance at winning the main competition, you're still left with the problem of having a number of useless games. If that's the case then I don't see what benefit a secondary competition is.
However, giving the winners along with the other top 2 of the secondary contest some sort of benefit for the following season i.e. to play in the 1st tier contest, gives it relevance. This is similar to what McGuinness was alluding to which to me makes the most sense. You'll have much more games with teams playing at similar levels while there is incentive for teams to win the 2nd tier contest." To be fair keithlemon you'll always have a number if useless games no matter what the structure and I was against the GPA's proposal because I think 6 group games is far too many, 3 would be than enough and would greatly reduce the number of useless games.
As for Jim McGuinness's proposal, I didn't like it because it would condemn plenty of counties to the second tier for either a long time or possibly for good. Now honestly I hate picking on specific counties but if Jim's idea was passed then how likely would say Carlow, Wicklow or Leitrim etc be to ever play a top championship team in a big championship game again?
The answer is possibly never and while they don't play them on a regular basis as it is, at least they're in with a chance and that's what it's all about, take away the chance and you greatly reduce the interest.
Also the weaker counties were overwhelmingly against a second tier, the GPA done extensive research on championship restructuring and that was one of the things that they found. So honestly why push them into a place that they don't want to be and by extension do damage to football within many counties.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/07/2016 11:27:05
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Htaem, I think we can agree that a new format is required.
There's is no magic formula as you say, even with the top tier matches you'll have games where one team murders the other. I'd differ with you on the point of the 2nd tier. I understand why those counties and their players would want to be included but there is a case to argue where a radical change to the format is required because, quite simply, it's good for it.
Yes, it's elitist, but if such a change would give us a better game then I'm all for it
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 20/07/2016 11:52:55
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