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Replying To benched: "Because I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet and I normally pass over your repetitive posts so I don't know what you are talking about" So what your basically saying is that you couldn't be bothered reading what someone posts, but you'll go on here and just disagree with them anyway.
Wonderful way to debate, your not Joe Brolly in disguise are you?
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 16:39:41
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Replying To Wally: "Derry are division 2
Cavan have just been promoted to division 1
We will play Donegal in the final who are also divison 1" Both were division 2.
Tough going that....
westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 06/07/2016 17:38:51
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There's no question that Ulster is the toughest championship and I'm very much looking forward to the Ulster Final.
This argument that Kerry wouldn't have won as many championships as they have if they were in Ulster is complete rubbish.
Kerry & Dublin for that matter have beaten the best of Ulster consistently but don't let facts get in the way of the Truth.
As for GerryMac, I'll enlighten you Kerry is the Kingdom because if you ever stepped foot in it you'd realise why.
Nothing to do with football.
westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 06/07/2016 17:48:32
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Replying To TheHermit: "So what your basically saying is that you couldn't be bothered reading what someone posts, but you'll go on here and just disagree with them anyway.
Wonderful way to debate, your not Joe Brolly in disguise are you?" No what I said was I hadn't (still haven't) read all the posts on this thread yet, I dipped in whilst on a break in work. I also said that I tend not to read a lot of what you post, doesn't mean I can't respond to one of your posts just as I did.
By the way, while I'm no big fan of Brolly, I think you would find that barrister Joe would be pretty handy in the whole debating lark, so to use him as an example of how bad someone is at debating is a pretty poor effort.
Anyway that's all I have to say on the subject.
benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 06/07/2016 17:48:46
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Replying To TheHermit: "So what your basically saying is that you couldn't be bothered reading what someone posts, but you'll go on here and just disagree with them anyway.
Wonderful way to debate, your not Joe Brolly in disguise are you?" Hermit , I actually think you are a good poster and I enjoy reading some of your posts.
Like myself you seem to have a massive interest in the history of our games.
I was actually best man for a Kerry bucko some years back and I think the people in the deep south are bang on.
I know for a fact Kerry would be the most dominant county in the land regardless of what province they are in.
Sure my own county did not even win an Ulster until 1972.
Once again, this is not Kerry's fault or Dublin.
Your are correct in one thing to you say - the Ulster council needs to get its house in order.
Its simply not fair for a county to be playing other division one teams in late May / early June while other counties literally can cake walk into the final eight or four.
I do feel Tyrone would have most definitely of won back to backs had they been in Munster.
Anyone that plays the game understands how tailoring training works.
Last year , Donegal played Tyrone on the 15th May. Kerry were in Portugal the same week. Simply not fair.
TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 06/07/2016 18:07:20
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Replying To TheRightStuff: "Hermit , I actually think you are a good poster and I enjoy reading some of your posts.
Like myself you seem to have a massive interest in the history of our games.
I was actually best man for a Kerry bucko some years back and I think the people in the deep south are bang on.
I know for a fact Kerry would be the most dominant county in the land regardless of what province they are in.
Sure my own county did not even win an Ulster until 1972.
Once again, this is not Kerry's fault or Dublin.
Your are correct in one thing to you say - the Ulster council needs to get its house in order.
Its simply not fair for a county to be playing other division one teams in late May / early June while other counties literally can cake walk into the final eight or four.
I do feel Tyrone would have most definitely of won back to backs had they been in Munster.
Anyone that plays the game understands how tailoring training works.
Last year , Donegal played Tyrone on the 15th May. Kerry were in Portugal the same week. Simply not fair." Therightstuff - very fair comment hard to argue with it.
westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 06/07/2016 18:50:01
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"That's the major advantage Kerry have always had over the Ulster teams. I've often had people ask me would I not have preferred a few good, hard games early in the summer to prepare us for Croke Park. I'd sometimes nod along and agree that it was a good point they were making but in all honesty, I was usually trying very hard to keep a straight face through it all.
You want the truth? We couldn't have cared less how we got to Croke Park. The handier the route, the better. The system has always been stacked against the Ulster teams but you would never find us crying too many tears for them."
greatpoint (USA)
After Kerry lost fair and square to Armagh in '02 and Tyrone in '03, the argument was Kerry were not battle hardened enough. When Kerry won an All-Ireland then, it was a completely different story!
Now I know that this is not Kerry's fault or anyone within Munster for that matter but the GAA has to seriously look at this issue.
How can our premier competition be so flawed and uneven when more and more time, money and commitment is being pumped into the game.
Wally (Tyrone)
What motions are your county bringing to congress for change? Your province seems content for Ulster finalists to be in the preliminary round in the following year.
Are Westmeath in the A or B side of the draw or is it an open draw if they lose v dublin?
Donegalman (All)
B side. With the Munster and Leinster champions scheduled to meet in the semi-finals, it would have better sense for the Leinster football final to be played this weekend. Munster and Leinster winners should be in the first weekend of quarter-finals and it should be the first semi-final. For some bizarre reason the Munster football final is played first but the winner if they make the semi-final, will be playing in the second semi-final. Bad fixture planning by GAA HQ. It is putting the Ulster finalists under pressure. Ulster council are aware of it and yet they do nothing about it.
Jaysus hermit, the way the QFs are loaded we might not get to play ye at all this year.
realdub (Dublin)
It's a strange one. The Leinster finalists should be on the same side of the draw as the Munster finalists as Munster winners are scheduled to take on Leinster winners in the semi-finals if both get there.
How about commencing the provincials a bit earlier e.g May and after provincials are finished everybody enters the qualifiers on a equal footing. Get rid of the league play-offs except the Div one final.
crikey (Australia)
Unlikely to get through congress. When ideas were welcomed on the championship last year, it was stressed that watering down of the provincial championships would not get voted through congress. Provincial councils will not allow it. It's one reason I've suggested a compromise of bringing in a Round of 16.
How about you stop trying to convince the rest of us Kerry would still have the same amount of All-Irelands had they played in Ulster or even the Leinster Championship of previous decades. Mute point as they didn't, but as many titles as they still would have got, it would of been a lot fewer than with the late run needed to peak for August and September that the Munster championship provided.
benched (Tyrone)
One thing we can gauge that by is that Kerry have negotiated the qualifiers in the past. Limerick were going strong for a while, we coped with that challenge. In 2000, the last championship before the qualifiers, Kerry won the All-Ireland by beating Armagh in a replay and Galway in the final after a replay. Ulster football didn't harm ye're purple patch of '91 to '94.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7865 - 06/07/2016 19:06:35
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You brought that up to deflect from and avoid responding to everyone else had said initially.
greatpoint (USA)
Bizarre post by you. You totally avoided the issue that the Ulster championship has flaws and they are content with it. They would want to get their own house in order before complaining about the All-Ireland structure.
I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."]So would roscommon, New York and six Leinster counties.
ROS1 (Roscommon)
Not to go on about it, in my own humble opinion the 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners should join the 8 provincial finalists in a Round of 16. Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 can be played in parallel as they are to the provincial semi-finals and final.
Kerry are a great county but playing D2 and D3 teams to make the last 8 is just not fair .
TheRightStuff (Donegal)
If the qualifier rounds were seeded based on league placing if might even out any perceived unfairness. If Division 1 football is advantageous for the championship, Division 1 standard provincial football should also be advantageous for the All-Ireland series. We should be seeing at least 4 Ulster teams in the quarter-finals.
I think Donegal would have had a 50/50 chance of beating mayo last year if the routes to the same stage of the competition were the same. As it was, we were not fit for a quarter final against division one opposition that day. There is a difference in pointing this disadvantage out and on the greater extreme, claiming that you would win an all ireland.
Donegalman (All)
Provincial losers will only have a week after Qualifier Round 4 ahead of the quarter-finals. Kerry only had a week ahead of taking on Donegal in the 2012 quarter-finals. It's just the nature of it. Tyrone had a week last year to prepare for Monaghan and they overcame the challenge.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7865 - 06/07/2016 19:06:59
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Replying To ROS1: " Replying To Wally: "[quote=Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals' I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."
the losing provincial finalists play the 4 winners of the round 3 qualifiers in the 4th round of the qualifiers . the winners of these 4 matches then go in to the quarter finals against the provincial winners. so no team are through to the quarter finals yet apart from Kerry.
for fermanagh to qualify for the quarter finals this year as provincial winners they would have had to beat: Antrim,Donegal,Monaghan and Tyrone.
same with Antrim.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 06/07/2016 19:12:04
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Carlow would have to beat 2 Divison 2 sides and the all Ireland champs a hard route to get to a provincial final, similarly London and Clare had hard routes to there provincial finals. Every province has harder and easier routes to the final.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 06/07/2016 19:31:47
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Replying To benched: "How about you stop trying to convince the rest of us Kerry would still have the same amount of All-Irelands had they played in Ulster or even the Leinster Championship of previous decades. Mute point as they didn't, but as many titles as they still would have got, it would of been a lot fewer than with the late run needed to peak for August and September that the Munster championship provided." Results of AI Semi Finals & Finals between Munster and Ulster winners in the 1970's and 1980's
Cork 5-10 - 2-4 Tyrone
Kerry 5-14 - 1-10 Derry
Kerry 5-14 - 0-7 Monaghan
Kerry 3-15 1-11 Armagh
Kerry 2-10 - 0-9 Monaghan (R)
Kerry 2-15 - 1-10 Tyrone
Cork 1-14 - 0-6 Monaghan
Jeez the Ulster Championship must have been a minefield in that period which took everything out of its champion, what else can explain the point margins cant have been a great Kerry side no sirree,
KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 06/07/2016 19:34:43
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Just wondering can I post here
BullShitNotMe (Roscommon) - Posts: 69 - 06/07/2016 19:46:15
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Replying To BullShitNotMe: "Just wondering can I post here" Think you just answered your own question there bud!
MedwayIrish (Wexford) - Posts: 2324 - 06/07/2016 19:51:37
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Tipperary had to beat Cork and Kerry.
Last year I was posting the progress of Ulster teams and the non-Ulster counties that were knocking them out of the qualifiers. This year so far:
Antrim lost out to Limerick.
Down lost out to Longford.
Armagh lost out to Laois.
Ulster football is not to blame for these counties being knocked out of the All-Ireland championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7865 - 06/07/2016 19:52:27
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Replying To benched: "No what I said was I hadn't (still haven't) read all the posts on this thread yet, I dipped in whilst on a break in work. I also said that I tend not to read a lot of what you post, doesn't mean I can't respond to one of your posts just as I did.
By the way, while I'm no big fan of Brolly, I think you would find that barrister Joe would be pretty handy in the whole debating lark, so to use him as an example of how bad someone is at debating is a pretty poor effort.
Anyway that's all I have to say on the subject." Jaysus I'm trying to debate with a guy who admires a blowhard like Brolly.
Lesson learned, good luck to you.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 20:19:13
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Replying To TheRightStuff: "Hermit , I actually think you are a good poster and I enjoy reading some of your posts.
Like myself you seem to have a massive interest in the history of our games.
I was actually best man for a Kerry bucko some years back and I think the people in the deep south are bang on.
I know for a fact Kerry would be the most dominant county in the land regardless of what province they are in.
Sure my own county did not even win an Ulster until 1972.
Once again, this is not Kerry's fault or Dublin.
Your are correct in one thing to you say - the Ulster council needs to get its house in order.
Its simply not fair for a county to be playing other division one teams in late May / early June while other counties literally can cake walk into the final eight or four.
I do feel Tyrone would have most definitely of won back to backs had they been in Munster.
Anyone that plays the game understands how tailoring training works.
Last year , Donegal played Tyrone on the 15th May. Kerry were in Portugal the same week. Simply not fair." Rightstuff, I can understand completely what your saying there. But, like you've acknowledged, it is the Ulster Council's fault first and foremost.
If Donegal were the Ulster champions they shouldn't be in a preliminary round. Its up to the 9 counties to demand change like Limerick, Waterford, Clare and Tipperary did in Munster - where they got the Championship structure rejigged so that the provincial finalists are now seeded.
Look the Championship can never be uniform considering the fact its based on 4 provinces. Plenty want to change that, I'm skeptical because I think most of the models put forward will lead to more one-sided games, more dead rubbers, and teams being denied the opportunity of winning any silverware unless they win the All Ireland. Sean Kelly's proposal has a lot of merits I'll admit.
In fact I'd love if someone did a poll on here asking the question whether people want to keep or ditch the provincial championships.
As you said, one of the things I love most about the GAA is its history and its traditions and I'll shed a tear the day they tell me the Munster final is no more. And I'm sure plenty in Ulster would do the same if they got rid of the day out in Clones!
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 20:29:08
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I could be wrong but I read somewhere years ago that Kerry is named after Ciar the son of and Ulster King who set up his own Kingdom down there,
so it's Ulster blood that's been winning AI's all along!!
TirChonaillabu2 (Donegal) - Posts: 344 - 06/07/2016 21:20:28
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Replying To KYTitletown: "Results of AI Semi Finals & Finals between Munster and Ulster winners in the 1970's and 1980's
Cork 5-10 - 2-4 Tyrone
Kerry 5-14 - 1-10 Derry
Kerry 5-14 - 0-7 Monaghan
Kerry 3-15 1-11 Armagh
Kerry 2-10 - 0-9 Monaghan (R)
Kerry 2-15 - 1-10 Tyrone
Cork 1-14 - 0-6 Monaghan
Jeez the Ulster Championship must have been a minefield in that period which took everything out of its champion, what else can explain the point margins cant have been a great Kerry side no sirree," Put Kerry or Cork to Tyrone , Donegal , Monaghan , Cavan . They would lose in any condition
oakleafersir (Derry) - Posts: 808 - 06/07/2016 21:40:29
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Replying To TheHermit: "Rightstuff, I can understand completely what your saying there. But, like you've acknowledged, it is the Ulster Council's fault first and foremost.
If Donegal were the Ulster champions they shouldn't be in a preliminary round. Its up to the 9 counties to demand change like Limerick, Waterford, Clare and Tipperary did in Munster - where they got the Championship structure rejigged so that the provincial finalists are now seeded.
Look the Championship can never be uniform considering the fact its based on 4 provinces. Plenty want to change that, I'm skeptical because I think most of the models put forward will lead to more one-sided games, more dead rubbers, and teams being denied the opportunity of winning any silverware unless they win the All Ireland. Sean Kelly's proposal has a lot of merits I'll admit.
In fact I'd love if someone did a poll on here asking the question whether people want to keep or ditch the provincial championships.
As you said, one of the things I love most about the GAA is its history and its traditions and I'll shed a tear the day they tell me the Munster final is no more. And I'm sure plenty in Ulster would do the same if they got rid of the day out in Clones!" Very reasoned post.
Everyone comments on the flaws of the provincial system but there are some very good aspects to it.
Supporters are interested in the provincial championships more than they would be otherwise.
There's prestige to winning your provincial championship that has been built up over years.
The qualifiers despite being good for players hasn't come close to capturing the imagination that a provincial championship match contains, that is evident in the attendances.
It'd be hard to see a structure not including the provincial championships being anything other than a little bit dull in the opening rounds.
Much worse than it is now.
There's proper build up to games like Derry v Tyrone and Meath v Dublin even though the games themselves turned out to be damp squibs.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 06/07/2016 21:44:55
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Replying To oakleafersir: "Put Kerry or Cork to Tyrone , Donegal , Monaghan , Cavan . They would lose in any condition" All those games were played in Dublin so unless you think if those games were played in Ulster then good luck to you
KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 06/07/2016 21:59:04
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