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How about commencing the provincials a bit earlier e.g May and after provincials are finished everybody enters the qualifiers on a equal footing. Get rid of the league play-offs except the Div one final.
crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 06/07/2016 13:16:00
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Replying To Donegalman: "Are Westmeath in the A or B side of the draw or is it an open draw if they lose v dublin?" They would face a qualifier from the B side of the draw. Most likely Cork, Mayo or Monaghan.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5016 - 06/07/2016 13:22:15
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Replying To Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals'
I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final.
Wally (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 06/07/2016 13:49:03
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Replying To TheHermit: "Oh poo, Cork got themselves knocked out of Munster.
Who have Dublin ever played to win Leinster in the past decade?
The system is the system, so could you Ulster boys stop convincing yourself you'd have 30 All-Ireland if only you were somewhere else because you wouldn't!" How about you stop trying to convince the rest of us Kerry would still have the same amount of All-Irelands had they played in Ulster or even the Leinster Championship of previous decades. Mute point as they didn't, but as many titles as they still would have got, it would of been a lot fewer than with the late run needed to peak for August and September that the Munster championship provided.
benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 06/07/2016 13:50:00
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Do posters not think the recent games Tyrone had against Cavan will stand to them later in the championship, particularly for their younger players? Or the experience Donegals younger players got against Monaghan? Or are Harte and Gallagher learning nothing about their teams during these games that they wouldn't learn from a couple of extra training sessions?
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 06/07/2016 13:58:14
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Replying To benched: "How about you stop trying to convince the rest of us Kerry would still have the same amount of All-Irelands had they played in Ulster or even the Leinster Championship of previous decades. Mute point as they didn't, but as many titles as they still would have got, it would of been a lot fewer than with the late run needed to peak for August and September that the Munster championship provided." How about you respond to the points I and others have raised about the Ulster Championship, its quality, its own self made flaws etc?
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 14:02:03
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Replying To TheHermit: "How about you respond to the points I and others have raised about the Ulster Championship, its quality, its own self made flaws etc?" You brought that up to deflect from and avoid responding to everyone else had said initially.
You'd think that Kerry supporters wouldn't be so insecure about their footballers, very strange altogether.
greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 427 - 06/07/2016 14:17:06
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Replying To Soma: "Do posters not think the recent games Tyrone had against Cavan will stand to them later in the championship, particularly for their younger players? Or the experience Donegals younger players got against Monaghan? Or are Harte and Gallagher learning nothing about their teams during these games that they wouldn't learn from a couple of extra training sessions?" Once you win those games they stand to you.
At the start of the season though those games are hurdles to be overcome.
Look at Monaghan, lose to Donegal, they could come up against Cork or Mayo now in round 3.
That is just an example but it does show that going out early can be costly and that is more likely to happen in Ulster.
I agree though with other posters. Some of the problem lies with the Ulster council not seeding the draw.
Donegals draw last year was ridiculous and would've been avoided if there'd been seeding in place.
Provincial championships have to stay though.
They're still big draws for fans and I'm sure the players also.
The early stages of the championship are only bearable with that little bit of local rivalry thrown in.
Whilst it's harder to win the big one, it is good that Ulster counties have a provincial title with a lot of meaning. I can't imagine Dublin players are getting the same satisfaction out of winning Leinster as Monaghan got out of their Ulster titles.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 06/07/2016 14:42:36
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Replying To greatpoint: "You brought that up to deflect from and avoid responding to everyone else had said initially.
You'd think that Kerry supporters wouldn't be so insecure about their footballers, very strange altogether." I have responded the posts above.
Considering I've heard nothing back form you all as regards them, I'll assume I've made some valid points.
Ever province is in charge of how they structure their Provincial Championship so the first port of call for all of you who have an issue with the Ulster Championship is your own Ulster Council.
In a lot of these debates I detect two themes
1) Ulster GAA supporters seem to think they have a Goose laying golden eggs and for that reason should get some preferential treatment come the All-Ireland series itself.
2) (And I acknowledge the posters above have said they are not blaming Kerry) but plenty of others seem to use this whole issue as a way of having a pop at Kerry. Oh sure they would never have won as much only they are in Munster, oh sure we would have won loads if we were somewhere else.
The reality is that just because Ulster happens to have more Division 1 teams now than anywhere else, does not mean that it has always been this severe impediment to Ulster teams winning more. In the past every province has been strong at different times.
Yes Ulster has more counties in and around the same level than the other provinces at present but that is not the same as saying that level is good enough to trouble counties like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc etc.
As far as I can see you have 3 counties (Donegal/Monaghan/Tyrone)nailed on Q-finalists most years. So you have one more than Munster, 2 more than Leinster and about the same as Connacht at present.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 14:49:04
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Replying To Wally: " Replying To Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals' I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 06/07/2016 14:59:25
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Replying To Soma: "Do posters not think the recent games Tyrone had against Cavan will stand to them later in the championship, particularly for their younger players? Or the experience Donegals younger players got against Monaghan? Or are Harte and Gallagher learning nothing about their teams during these games that they wouldn't learn from a couple of extra training sessions?" I'd agree they are a really big help but it's much more draining on a squad .
Why oh why would Tomas O Se say they wouldn't have done back to back if they were in Ulster ?
Why does Dara say it's better to have an easy route ?
Look it's not Kerry fault .
Kerry would have probably beaten the pick of Ulster for most of it's history but times have changed .
Kerry are a great county but playing D2 and D3 teams to make the last 8 is just not fair .
TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 06/07/2016 15:06:50
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The system is the system, so could you Ulster boys stop convincing yourself you'd have 30 All-Ireland if only you were somewhere else because you wouldn't!
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:1484 - 06/07/2016 09:56:34
We probably would have actually, as the men of Ulster as part of the Ui Neill have historically been a superior specimen, thus why we pretty much ruled the bulk of this Island for 1000 years before the mid 1600's through the alternating Northern/Southern Ui Neill. Yet you don't hear us calling ourselves "THE KINGDOM", we are too modest for that aul chat.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 06/07/2016 15:18:06
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Replying To TheRightStuff: "I'd agree they are a really big help but it's much more draining on a squad .
Why oh why would Tomas O Se say they wouldn't have done back to back if they were in Ulster ?
Why does Dara say it's better to have an easy route ?
Look it's not Kerry fault .
Kerry would have probably beaten the pick of Ulster for most of it's history but times have changed .
Kerry are a great county but playing D2 and D3 teams to make the last 8 is just not fair ." But is it really much more draining on a squad I wonder. Didn't Donegals former physio highlight that most of the injuries they suffered were during training sessions? If it's so draining why all the calls for more games and a shorter championship, surely that is a terrible demand to place on amateur players? If these games are a big help like you say then the winner of the Ulster final will have a big advantage over Kerry. I wouldnt pay too much attention to anything former players write or say for money, remember Kieran McGeeney reckons all the most physical teams play outside the Ulster championship.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 06/07/2016 15:22:39
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Replying To GaryMc82: "The system is the system, so could you Ulster boys stop convincing yourself you'd have 30 All-Ireland if only you were somewhere else because you wouldn't!
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:1484 - 06/07/2016 09:56:34
We probably would have actually, as the men of Ulster as part of the Ui Neill have historically been a superior specimen, thus why we pretty much ruled the bulk of this Island for 1000 years before the mid 1600's through the alternating Northern/Southern Ui Neill. Yet you don't hear us calling ourselves "THE KINGDOM", we are too modest for that aul chat." Why don't you actually bother to look up where that moniker came from and stop assuming its something we thought up in the last 50 or 60 years to think of ourselves as great.
P.S., as someone who has a history degree: a nine year old would be embarrassed by what you just posted there. Might I suggest you invest in a good authoritative work on Irish history and not rely on Wikipedia.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/07/2016 15:28:03
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I think Donegal would have had a 50/50 chance of beating mayo last year if the routes to the same stage of the competition were the same. As it was, we were not fit for a quarter final against division one opposition that day. There is a difference in pointing this disadvantage out and on the greater extreme, claiming that you would win an all ireland.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 06/07/2016 15:31:34
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Replying To ROS1: " Replying To Wally: "[quote=Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals' I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."
Jimjo (Cavan) - Posts: 65 - 06/07/2016 15:40:02
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Whats the big obsession with League football the last few years. Sick to the teeth of hearing about divisions. Has no relevance until we start seeding teams for championship. Pointless load of muck being talked
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 06/07/2016 15:54:29
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Replying To TheHermit: "How about you respond to the points I and others have raised about the Ulster Championship, its quality, its own self made flaws etc?" Because I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet and I normally pass over your repetitive posts so I don't know what you are talking about
benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 06/07/2016 15:57:46
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Replying To Jimjo: " Replying To ROS1: "[quote=Wally: "[quote=Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals' I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 06/07/2016 16:05:27
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Replying To Jimjo: " Replying To ROS1: "[quote=Wally: "[quote=Kurt_Angle: "No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals (with the exception, I think, of New York, unlikely as that may be to happen in the near future). It may work out that way depending on the draw, whether a team wins their province and whether there are replays etc. but it's not guaranteed.
Similarly, no team is guaranteed to only have to play 2 games to reach the quarters. This also depends on the draw and historical results.
I don't disagree that the draw is currently lopsided and not ideal but a bit of objectivity is required. I mean you could also make the argument that even in the "easier" provinces, the draw can be similarly as kind. For example, both Dublin and Tyrone have reached provincial finals by beating two division 2 sides (I appreciate that Dublin will face a division 3 side in the final while Tyrone will face a division 1 side). Roscommon, similarly, have reached their provincial final by beating a team who aren't in the league, a division 4 side and a division 3 side and are due to meet a division 2 side in the decider. I don't subscribe to this argument but cherry picking examples like this to suit an argument benefits no one when it comes to arguing a case for the best way forward." 'No team has to play "4 games minimum" to get to the quarter finals' I beg to differ. If Fermanagh or Antrim were to get to the quarter finals this year they would have had to play a preliminary match, Ulster Quarter final, Ulster Semi Final and Ulster Final."
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 06/07/2016 16:32:12
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