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Replying To DoireCityFC: ""the good old days"
That is just another way of saying "I'm getting old, can't accept it and these changes scare me because it was different when I grew up"
"I remember when a mars bar cost 20p"
Stop your crying, grow a set............and grow up" We were all arrogant in our youth my friend but as the sign in the graveyard reads "we too were like you, you too will be like us" Of course older people look back at the "old days" wistfully as we will never get them back. Also a lot of things in the old days were better, less crime, no drugs etc. It didn't matter if the standard of football was worse as a close game between mediocre teams can be a lot more exciting than the one sided travesties we are seeing at the moment. There is no denying that the standard of football has improved drastically, especially over the last twenty years, as players are training almost every day allied to input from strength and conditioning coaches,psychologists and several other ologists I can't spell. The question is has the standard of entertainment improved and I'm not convinced that it has. I have never see a team as fast, as fit, as accurate or as clinical as this Dublin team. That is not to say that there won't be better teams in twenty or thirty years time but you will get the young people of today looking back nostalgically at the "great" games we had between Dublin and Laois, Dublin and Longford etc. Telling old people to grow up and basically grow a pair is somewhere between disrespectful and contemptuous. Tread softly my friend for you tread on our memories.
Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 15/06/2016 22:16:18
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Replying To Durango: "Football is not watchable anymore, with blanket defenses, lack of clean fielding, short kick outs, the bottling up of flair players the norm. In the 80s soccer faced similar problems when negativity was the norm, the likes of Maradonna was virtually hacked out of the 1982 world cup, steau Bucharest were winning European Cups and the back pass was in vogue.Well soccer got it's act together thro updating the rules by favouring the flair players, thro a new offside rule and the near banning of cynical tackles and elimination of the back pass.The messi's and ronaldos of Gaelic football in guise of gooch, Connor McManus,Mike Murphy need proper protection.more space can b generated by going to 13 a side, the reintroduction of mid fielding can b achieved by making all kick outs travel past the 45,until that happens, I don't really have the stomach to waste another summer watching complete dross. I'd rather watch the Euros" What is this facinacistion with letting a big lad jump up in the air without anyone challenging him? IS someone making a clean catch a greater skill than someone jinking through a packed defence? That still happens and for me is much better. Lads from as far as I can remember we keep getting told football is cat and becoming to defensive. Yet scores keep increasing year on year. Where is the problem?
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 15/06/2016 23:17:18
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I never missed a football game on tv in the 90's. Doesn't bother me anymore. Most games are a bore fest tbh. Hurling lacks excitement too. The qualifiers and more games has contributed to it also despite what most will say. I'll opnely say I hate to see KK win anything but i'd hate to see hurling going the way football has and someone win playing defensively. Thank God Dublin are winning playing fairly attacking stuff. Trouble is though everyone knows they can't match them going 15 on 15.
The 90's will always be the best decade for the GAA. Quality may have lacked at times but the excitement won't be matched
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 16/06/2016 11:08:58
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Replying To tiobraid: "I never missed a football game on tv in the 90's. Doesn't bother me anymore. Most games are a bore fest tbh. Hurling lacks excitement too. The qualifiers and more games has contributed to it also despite what most will say. I'll opnely say I hate to see KK win anything but i'd hate to see hurling going the way football has and someone win playing defensively. Thank God Dublin are winning playing fairly attacking stuff. Trouble is though everyone knows they can't match them going 15 on 15.
The 90's will always be the best decade for the GAA. Quality may have lacked at times but the excitement won't be matched" Dublin don't go man to man either. They pull their men back too. Watch and you will often see brogan as the only player inside the opposition half.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 16/06/2016 11:35:49
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Replying To gotmilk: "Dublin don't go man to man either. They pull their men back too. Watch and you will often see brogan as the only player inside the opposition half." Yes agreed. That was driven from the Donegal result a couple of years ago. But watch any of their scores and see how many they have inside 45. They attack with serious pace and trust that the attack won't break down. And certainly they don't defend anywhere near the way some of the other teams do. It's hard to argue that they aren't exciting to watch. They mix plenty of kick passing with hand passing too. Would love to see stats on that actually..
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 16/06/2016 11:43:00
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Don't believe the games now are too far off the so called golden era (if ever there was one!). Skill will always win a match for you, no matter how defensive a team it still needs to win a match. I played a lot of games and I only remember a few, I watched a lot of games and only remember a few. I suspect it is the same for everyone. I go to far less county games than I should, I think the Dublin v Derry game in 2015 forced me to go get a life! Don't think I could ever justify to myself why I would watch such a similar game again, thankfully there have been few repeats, so maybe the game is evolving, it will evolve - or die!
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4897 - 16/06/2016 11:46:12
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Replying To Breffni39: "Apart from misty-eyed nostalgia, all evidence suggests that you are wrong." Talking about 'all evidence available' on this is ridiculous. The quality/ entertainment value/ satisfaction to play the game is impossible to definitively measure as they are all subjective judgements. For me what I find amazing is how the game has been let change so much, all sports change a bit but usually retain their distinctive character. In Gaelic football the basic things I remember was a fair bit of high fielding (or at least quite a lot of opposing players trying to field the ball over each other's head which had been kicked from further out the field), physical challenges/ battle, one on one completion between forwards and backs, the ball being kicked often and travelling fast. It was a simple game but this was no bad thing. The fitness of players has improved hugely and now a very different game has emerged, but for me it is not nearly as compelling to watch or as enjoyable to play. One teams defence way out numbering the opposing attack and playing 15 hand passes to free defenders to me is not what Gaelic football is about.
Other sports have changed also but in other sports the rule makers know what makes their sports distinctive and rule changes have kept this in mind. Rugby has changed hugely but has still maintained what made it distinctive and why people liked it in the first place, the physical nature of the sport etc.
The GAA seem to aimlessly make rule changes without any thought as to what makes Gaelic football distinctive.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 16/06/2016 12:40:52
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Replying To Llaw_Gyffes: "We were all arrogant in our youth my friend but as the sign in the graveyard reads "we too were like you, you too will be like us" Of course older people look back at the "old days" wistfully as we will never get them back. Also a lot of things in the old days were better, less crime, no drugs etc. It didn't matter if the standard of football was worse as a close game between mediocre teams can be a lot more exciting than the one sided travesties we are seeing at the moment. There is no denying that the standard of football has improved drastically, especially over the last twenty years, as players are training almost every day allied to input from strength and conditioning coaches,psychologists and several other ologists I can't spell. The question is has the standard of entertainment improved and I'm not convinced that it has. I have never see a team as fast, as fit, as accurate or as clinical as this Dublin team. That is not to say that there won't be better teams in twenty or thirty years time but you will get the young people of today looking back nostalgically at the "great" games we had between Dublin and Laois, Dublin and Longford etc. Telling old people to grow up and basically grow a pair is somewhere between disrespectful and contemptuous. Tread softly my friend for you tread on our memories." couldn't have put it better myself ,
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 16/06/2016 12:59:04
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Replying To gotmilk: "What is this facinacistion with letting a big lad jump up in the air without anyone challenging him? IS someone making a clean catch a greater skill than someone jinking through a packed defence? That still happens and for me is much better. Lads from as far as I can remember we keep getting told football is cat and becoming to defensive. Yet scores keep increasing year on year. Where is the problem?" I don't recall mentioning my preference for big guys fielding unchallenged ??? In fact fielding is being eradicated from the game, I personally don't find a 15 meter kick out to an unmarked back very exciting.in fact on the rare occasions during a game a guy makes a great catch hes been manhandled on his return to ground by 4-5 defenders. All I'm saying is from an entertainment perspective football has deteriorated from the magnificent games of the 90s and 00s to what it is today. We won an All Ireland in 2014 in one of the most defensive final of all times and if I'm honest I was happy we won but wasn't exhilarated by the occasion due to the nature of the game. Outstanding forwards on both sides were nullified by mass defensive tactics. Even though we lost in 05 and 08 to Tyrone, and I was gutted, the football on show by both teams was awesome where you knew you were part of something special. All I'm saying is that from an entertainment perspective Soccer was often woeful in the 80s and early 90s admittedly played on bad pitches, but soccer got their house in order whereby flair players were allowed to express themselves rather than being hacked down the whole time, and time wasting defensive tactics such as the back pass was eliminated keeping the ball in play more frequently. I'm quite aware that there are poor soccer games as well, but for the most part the the major tournaments are throwing up magnificent teams and individuals in the guise of recent Barcelona, Real Madrid teams, French Team (98-00) Spanish Team (08-12) with their array of stars performers. If Gaelic keeps going down this defensive cul de sac a lot more neutral fans will turn off in their droves !!!
Durango (Kerry) - Posts: 3 - 16/06/2016 13:28:48
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Replying To gotmilk: "Dublin don't go man to man either. They pull their men back too. Watch and you will often see brogan as the only player inside the opposition half." There's a difference in pulling men back and tracking players runs. Dublin track players runs because most teams we play pull 13 men back which means when they counter attack they tend to go forward together there for the Dublin players must not let the other team have men off the shoulder to just handpass up the pitch.
when a team plays Dublin with a more orthodox set up Dublin keep there forwards in place
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 16/06/2016 15:44:25
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Talking about 'all evidence available' on this is ridiculous. The quality/ entertainment value/ satisfaction to play the game is impossible to definitively measure as they are all subjective judgements. For me what I find amazing is how the game has been let change so much, all sports change a bit but usually retain their distinctive character. In Gaelic football the basic things I remember was a fair bit of high fielding (or at least quite a lot of opposing players trying to field the ball over each other's head which had been kicked from further out the field), physical challenges/ battle, one on one completion between forwards and backs, the ball being kicked often and travelling fast. It was a simple game but this was no bad thing. The fitness of players has improved hugely and now a very different game has emerged, but for me it is not nearly as compelling to watch or as enjoyable to play. One teams defence way out numbering the opposing attack and playing 15 hand passes to free defenders to me is not what Gaelic football is about.
Other sports have changed also but in other sports the rule makers know what makes their sports distinctive and rule changes have kept this in mind. Rugby has changed hugely but has still maintained what made it distinctive and why people liked it in the first place, the physical nature of the sport etc.
The GAA seem to aimlessly make rule changes without any thought as to what makes Gaelic football distinctive." I agree the entertainment value is entirely subjective, but I dont agree that the skill level debate is. There are different arguments being made here.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 16/06/2016 16:01:31
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It never ceazes to amaze how easily convinced people are by pundits or journalist's opinions. We here all the talk about how unfair championship structures or weaker teams have nothing to play for.
well take the euro 2016 there was 54 countries I'm nearly sure entered the competition at the qualifying now 90 % of them haven't a hope in hell of winning the competition. You then move on to the tournament itself and you have 24 teams there in France. Let's all be honest if the winners come from outside of Spain,Germany, France or Italy it will be a massive shock. So you have 5/6 of the teams there who aren't even contenders I don't here the calls for b and c competitions to give countries like Ireland northern Ireland Wales Albania or Sweden a chance of competing on a level playing field
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 16/06/2016 16:18:15
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It never ceazes to amaze how easily convinced people are by pundits or journalist's opinions. We here all the talk about how unfair championship structures or weaker teams have nothing to play for.
well take the euro 2016 there was 54 countries I'm nearly sure entered the competition at the qualifying now 90 % of them haven't a hope in hell of winning the competition. You then move on to the tournament itself and you have 24 teams there in France. Let's all be honest if the winners come from outside of Spain,Germany, France or Italy it will be a massive shock. So you have 5/6 of the teams there who aren't even contenders I don't here the calls for b and c competitions to give countries like Ireland northern Ireland Wales Albania or Sweden a chance of competing on a level playing field
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts:10621 - 16/06/2016 16:18:15And it never ceases to amaze me how easily some people are ridiculously dismissive of a pundit or journalist simply because some people share their views.
But the issue with the euros and qualification for it is that its fair and everyone enters with the exact same chance of winning. All start at the same place. The format of the all Ireland championship is completely flawed
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/06/2016 16:34:55
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It's exactly the same thing
90% of the teams entering know they don't have a hope of winning the competition. So andorra entered on the same level playing field as france did they?
it's people like you that are so easily lead and can't see things without an ex player journalist or somebody else in the spotlight to confirm it.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 16/06/2016 16:47:10
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My big thing with this whole good old days thread is that I feel that those who are against the current trends are being very negative in their perception of the game.
You guys are focusing on the bad teams, the bad games, the things that have gone out of the game.
I prefer to focus on the good stuff.
The AI finals have been dire lately but there have been a number of v good semi-finals in the last 4 seasons.
For every Armagh and Derry there's a Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Roscommon. It's not a consensus view but Cavan are also a very positive team. Tyrone get bodies behind the ball but they still attack at pace and wrack up good scores in the process.
Donegal were dreadful to watch in 2011 particularly v Dublin for the rest of the McGuinness era they played great stuff.
For all this talk of defences stifling forwards you still have great attackers. O'Connor, McManus, Brogan, Connolly, Murphy and O'Donoghue.
There's a big problem, there's a bit of a dirth of top quality teams and the championship structure is unfair and probably dated.
These are problems not unique to this era.
Look if you want to remember with fondness a previous era that's fine.
I'd have a problem with people calling for rule changes though. In my mind that'd be regression, there's lots to enjoy in the game.
Also those who say the game is worse to play do you actually play the game still?
There's a lot that's better about it. It's tactically more developed so it's more rewarding mentally. There's been a real move towards more modern training methods. Less running the life out of lads and more game specific training. Players are also involved for more of the game as teams attack and defend as a group. Attacking isn't the only enjoyable part of the game either. There are plenty of people who played defence over the years and would barely venture outside their own 45. Were all these guys masochists only playing the games as some strange form of penance.
I also laugh when people talk about soccer and how great it is. There are only about 2.5 scores per game in soccer. It is standard in soccer for a team to defend with at least 8 men behind the ball. I'd say at least 30-40% of passes are played backwards or sideways. They have Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis managing at the top level of the game!
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4229 - 16/06/2016 17:19:57
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Replying To Durango: "I don't recall mentioning my preference for big guys fielding unchallenged ??? In fact fielding is being eradicated from the game, I personally don't find a 15 meter kick out to an unmarked back very exciting.in fact on the rare occasions during a game a guy makes a great catch hes been manhandled on his return to ground by 4-5 defenders. All I'm saying is from an entertainment perspective football has deteriorated from the magnificent games of the 90s and 00s to what it is today. We won an All Ireland in 2014 in one of the most defensive final of all times and if I'm honest I was happy we won but wasn't exhilarated by the occasion due to the nature of the game. Outstanding forwards on both sides were nullified by mass defensive tactics. Even though we lost in 05 and 08 to Tyrone, and I was gutted, the football on show by both teams was awesome where you knew you were part of something special. All I'm saying is that from an entertainment perspective Soccer was often woeful in the 80s and early 90s admittedly played on bad pitches, but soccer got their house in order whereby flair players were allowed to express themselves rather than being hacked down the whole time, and time wasting defensive tactics such as the back pass was eliminated keeping the ball in play more frequently. I'm quite aware that there are poor soccer games as well, but for the most part the the major tournaments are throwing up magnificent teams and individuals in the guise of recent Barcelona, Real Madrid teams, French Team (98-00) Spanish Team (08-12) with their array of stars performers. If Gaelic keeps going down this defensive cul de sac a lot more neutral fans will turn off in their droves !!!" Might be easier to get a ticket to the All-Ireland final then.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 16/06/2016 19:36:47
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Replying To Durango: "I don't recall mentioning my preference for big guys fielding unchallenged ??? In fact fielding is being eradicated from the game, I personally don't find a 15 meter kick out to an unmarked back very exciting.in fact on the rare occasions during a game a guy makes a great catch hes been manhandled on his return to ground by 4-5 defenders. All I'm saying is from an entertainment perspective football has deteriorated from the magnificent games of the 90s and 00s to what it is today. We won an All Ireland in 2014 in one of the most defensive final of all times and if I'm honest I was happy we won but wasn't exhilarated by the occasion due to the nature of the game. Outstanding forwards on both sides were nullified by mass defensive tactics. Even though we lost in 05 and 08 to Tyrone, and I was gutted, the football on show by both teams was awesome where you knew you were part of something special. All I'm saying is that from an entertainment perspective Soccer was often woeful in the 80s and early 90s admittedly played on bad pitches, but soccer got their house in order whereby flair players were allowed to express themselves rather than being hacked down the whole time, and time wasting defensive tactics such as the back pass was eliminated keeping the ball in play more frequently. I'm quite aware that there are poor soccer games as well, but for the most part the the major tournaments are throwing up magnificent teams and individuals in the guise of recent Barcelona, Real Madrid teams, French Team (98-00) Spanish Team (08-12) with their array of stars performers. If Gaelic keeps going down this defensive cul de sac a lot more neutral fans will turn off in their droves !!!" But we were told in the 90s and 00s that football was being killed by the ulster teams and their negative puke football. Christ of all mighty. Scores are up, skill levels are up, fitness levels are up. There is still is high fielding taking place. Donnelly for Fermanagh regularly plucks them out of the sky. What the hell else do you want?
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 16/06/2016 19:48:06
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Over the years as players fitness improved and players could run more the amount of handpassing in the game increased. The increase in handpassing allowed players to pull and drag each other more. In the last 15 year or so to combat this pulling and dragging the GAA have made rules to take away a lot of the physical contact out of the game which has taken some of the character out of the game. They would have been better bringing in rules to limit the number of handpasses. This led to where we are now with teams setting up defensively, player's handpassing balls about 10 times jogging out of defence to a defenders marking nobody. Another thing which has been bad for the game is the kick outs off the tee. Its made short kick outs so much easier to do. Limit the number of handpasses and the defensive tactics would not be nearly as effective.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 16/06/2016 20:21:28
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Over the years as players fitness improved and players could run more the amount of handpassing in the game increased. The increase in handpassing allowed players to pull and drag each other more. In the last 15 year or so to combat this pulling and dragging the GAA have made rules to take away a lot of the physical contact out of the game which has taken some of the character out of the game. They would have been better bringing in rules to limit the number of handpasses. This led to where we are now with teams setting up defensively, player's handpassing balls about 10 times jogging out of defence to a defenders marking nobody. Another thing which has been bad for the game is the kick outs off the tee. Its made short kick outs so much easier to do. Limit the number of handpasses and the defensive tactics would not be nearly as effective." So you would rather go back to the least skillfull way of kickouts which was a hoof out as far as it could be kicked and into a crowd of 7 or 8 players and hope for the best? come on man that's madness
kickouts today are brilliant, to be able to pick a guy out moving at speed and put it into his chest is an art in itself
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 16/06/2016 20:45:55
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Over the years as players fitness improved and players could run more the amount of handpassing in the game increased. The increase in handpassing allowed players to pull and drag each other more. In the last 15 year or so to combat this pulling and dragging the GAA have made rules to take away a lot of the physical contact out of the game which has taken some of the character out of the game. They would have been better bringing in rules to limit the number of handpasses. This led to where we are now with teams setting up defensively, player's handpassing balls about 10 times jogging out of defence to a defenders marking nobody. Another thing which has been bad for the game is the kick outs off the tee. Its made short kick outs so much easier to do. Limit the number of handpasses and the defensive tactics would not be nearly as effective." They trialled limiting the number of hand passes. It was apparently a disaster with players just playing short kick passes instead.
Teams have just realised how important possession is and don't give the ball away needlessly.
Nothing wrong with fist passing anyway. Check out Donegals goals versus Fermanagh (even though the second shouldn't have counted). Those were great hand passing moves, taking the blanket defence to shreds.
I really don't think the rules are the problem. If teams want to be defensive they'll be defensive. There are plenty of teams who aren't particularly defensive.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4229 - 16/06/2016 20:50:06
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