National Forum

Scrap the black card now

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It was the post where you requested that referees who make repeated mistakes not be allowed referee games again until they prove they are competent, and for referees to be demoted like the professional soccer referees are if they make a mistake. Who exactly will step in if you stop some referees from refereeing games, and who will be promoted for those underperforming in the big games? I agree with you that some people do the role despite not being best suited, but the alternative is probably to have games cancelled as no referee is available. Just like we need to accept that a teammate will shoot when he should have passed, or a goalkeeper will take a short kickout that goes straight to the opposition, we have to accept that a referee will call an incident incorrectly. All players can do is play the game in an honest way to try and make his job easier - those who deliberately cheat by diving have no grounds for complaint.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/06/2016 11:37:11    1867108

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Replying To Soma:  "Offside your posts give the impression that there are loads of people desperate to become referees but their path is blocked by current referees of a poor standard. I think the reality is very different. Most of these referees have spent many many evenings driving the roads of their counties to referee u12 and u14 games before they are even considered for adult games at junior b level. You need to have a real love of the game to be a referee, so when they get decisions wrong nobody is more disappointed than themselves."
Fair enough point Soma but surely then if they have so much love for the game (which I do not doubt) then it is up to the GAA to put a massive effort into bringing them up to a higher standard - workshops, guidance, assessment (constructive) etc in order to ensure that games are affected as little as possible by referee performance and in return to give the referees the best opportunity to perform at a high and consistent level. I have to say at club level down the years all I have ever seen is massive inconsistency with good referees being the exception rather than the norm.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 15/06/2016 12:11:48    1867127

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Replying To browncows:  "I think Ref's have enough on their plate without having to deal with a black card. The foul has to be intentional -but how can a ref be a mind reader. Obviously some blocking of a player can be intentional but how can anyone in the spur of the moment decide. If the black card was such a good idea then why was it not included in hurling. Most sending off's through black cards are incorrect. I would have though that the sin bin was the best solution as it stops a poor decision from being a bad one- a player trains for 9 months for a championship match and can then get send off wrongly after 10 minutes thru black"
Very good post browncows - there is so much going on in games now that the black card has made it even more difficult for referees. I actually think we are at the point where we either need a second referee in games or umpires and linemen having a more active role - problematic though when referees seem hard enough to come by particularly at club level.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 15/06/2016 12:15:09    1867131

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Dell boy - I am in no way claiming to be an expert on anything. I have been involved with football long enough and current enough that I know most of the basic rules of the game. It is these I am talking about and if you have refs who can't get these right then I am not apologising for saying they shouldn't be refereeing. I imagine not everyone has what it takes to be a ref as you obviously require a multitude of skills from learning (rules etc) to personal skills required to control a game to name a couple. But there are refs who I would see regular enough as I see a lot of games who shouldn't have thought they have all the attributes needed as they don't. I am not talking the mistake or two that a ref makes from time to time as we are all human- I am talking the same mistakes or bad handling or whatever that you see every time you encounter that ref. As a manager the first thing I checked when the fixtures went up was who was ref. The players were then filled in on how the game would most likely be refereed - what you would get away with, if he was a voice activated ref ie whoever shouted the most for a foul would get, if they were going to turn on a team for being too verbal or complaining too much about decisions. Instead of being in a position of telling them play to the rules you tell them to play to the ref. And this is my gripe - a ref shouldn't influence a game but make sure it is played within the rules and if you think that there is no problem in that regard then we'll have to agree to disagree."
I agree with a point you made there about people shouting at refs and buying a free that does not work with me as I will blow if I think it is a free our not I never listen to crowd , sideline our players on decisions they think they should have and I have seen refs that listen to that which is wrong . Now one thing am known for is not taking any mouthing at me and it has worked in my game where I no more have players surround me over decisions.I do not mind constructive criticism but abuse I will not tolerate

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 15/06/2016 12:16:48    1867132

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Maybe if the black card was kept, but instead of replacing the player, they have to leave the field for 5/10 mins. This could have the effect of taking pressure off the ref, as they are no longer forcing a player out of the entire game, and thereby more fouls might be correctly penalised. Just keep calling it a black card though, no mention of "sin-bin", so nobody loses face! :)

I like the idea of the 21 yard free aswell for the black card, but always thought it might be introduced for any free,anywhere on the pitch, in the last 10 minutes of a match, might cut out a lot of cynicism in the final moments of games?

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 375 - 15/06/2016 12:23:33    1867137

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It was the post where you requested that referees who make repeated mistakes not be allowed referee games again until they prove they are competent, and for referees to be demoted like the professional soccer referees are if they make a mistake. Who exactly will step in if you stop some referees from refereeing games, and who will be promoted for those underperforming in the big games?

How does asking for accountability of refs equate to the impression "that there are loads of people desperate to become referees but their path is blocked by current referees of a poor standard." That's a hell of a leap on your part and is your assumption, not mine. I agree though that it is a Catch-22 for the reasons you mention above - few refs coming forward so who do you replace them with when they are on gardening leave against leaving them to it with little accountability. But that's not my problem to sort out.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/06/2016 12:30:20    1867143

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I have to agree there are too many refs out there not up to the standard. I understand it's a thankless job but is it fair on the players who train all year and can lose a match on numerous incorrect calls from a ref?

I mean image training 5 nights a week all year for a Penalty not to be awarded or for a foul to go unpunished and for it to end your season.

If a ref isn't up to stand then they should be given a few chances then let go if no improvement has been made.

Players are at a professional level in all but name but the standard of refs isn't.

kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 15/06/2016 12:32:31    1867146

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Any chance of you transferring to Antrim to ref Dellboy ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/06/2016 12:32:31    1867147

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Replying To kevin03:  "I have to agree there are too many refs out there not up to the standard. I understand it's a thankless job but is it fair on the players who train all year and can lose a match on numerous incorrect calls from a ref?

I mean image training 5 nights a week all year for a Penalty not to be awarded or for a foul to go unpunished and for it to end your season.

If a ref isn't up to stand then they should be given a few chances then let go if no improvement has been made.

Players are at a professional level in all but name but the standard of refs isn't."
Exactly kevin - I find it hard to understand why people can't get this, only see this from a refs point of view (feck everyone else) and then throw accusations at people like me of being against referees. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/06/2016 12:48:40    1867162

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Replying To Dellboypolecat:  "It is a hard job and listen to lot of people on sideline that do not know the rules .now on your point if I have bad game am told by the man that is over us and I have seen refs been moved down ladder for bad games and some never get back up to top level again in my county .now I got moved down once came back up and had no issues really since .but I hate black card and stick by that I reffed a reserve league tonight both teams only had 17 and I could have black carded six but give yellows and reserve football most of them are just out for bit of craic our footballers that struggle to get on first teams . Also in senior football play has gone so quick and a tackle lads are throwing themselves to ground but I gave black card one day in senior and crowd shouted for red as they thought it was professional foul , there is no professional foul in gaa ,but you have other things lot of people do not even know what foot block is ."

Torcaill (Australia) - Posts: 204 - 15/06/2016 13:27:49    1867195

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Replying To Dellboypolecat:  "It is a hard job and listen to lot of people on sideline that do not know the rules .now on your point if I have bad game am told by the man that is over us and I have seen refs been moved down ladder for bad games and some never get back up to top level again in my county .now I got moved down once came back up and had no issues really since .but I hate black card and stick by that I reffed a reserve league tonight both teams only had 17 and I could have black carded six but give yellows and reserve football most of them are just out for bit of craic our footballers that struggle to get on first teams . Also in senior football play has gone so quick and a tackle lads are throwing themselves to ground but I gave black card one day in senior and crowd shouted for red as they thought it was professional foul , there is no professional foul in gaa ,but you have other things lot of people do not even know what foot block is ."
This is an example of some of the problems out there. You say that you should have given 6 black cards but didn't because of lack of playing numbers. That should not be your concern. Apply the rules that are there, makes no difference whether you like them or not. Do you not think that after the first incident in which a black card should have been given, and you gave it, that players might think twice about carrying out these infractions again?

Torcaill (Australia) - Posts: 204 - 15/06/2016 13:31:54    1867197

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To me this can be easily fixed. as a player i feel you have to get rid of the black card all together. players are all most afraid to tackle now because they have to be very careful in the way they tackle it shouldn't be like that. So when a player does trip you or pull you back it should just be a yellow card but if the player with the ball is one on one for a goal or point opportunity it has to be a straight red.
Thats how i feel about it.

UlsterChamp (Monaghan) - Posts: 30 - 15/06/2016 13:37:07    1867199

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If a ref implemented the rules including the black card in the first 15 mins he would have far less to do the rest of the match. Players would quickly catch on what is being tolerated and what isn't. Rows break out when players get frustrated due to injustice and inconsistencies.

All players know which refs will punish them and which refs allows things to slide.

Refs do themselves no favours by allowing fouling to contuine.

kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 15/06/2016 14:31:29    1867230

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Unless its ur star player a black card is not much punishment for a team. The bigger counties have players of equal measure to come on. Would be much better to re introduce the sin bin as the sanction. Never got a fair crack of the whip in the first place.

Black card has improved things but it is not the full solution.

Don't give me stupid arguments about taking the physicality out of football. The offences that get you a black card have nothing to do with physicality.

The other argument is it is too complicated for referees.........................god help us if the referees we have are unable to distinguish between 3 cards!

I have to say the way the women implement the sin bin and the countdown clock should be an embarrassment to the mens game.

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1837 - 15/06/2016 14:41:26    1867235

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Replying To Torcaill:  "This is an example of some of the problems out there. You say that you should have given 6 black cards but didn't because of lack of playing numbers. That should not be your concern. Apply the rules that are there, makes no difference whether you like them or not. Do you not think that after the first incident in which a black card should have been given, and you gave it, that players might think twice about carrying out these infractions again?"
B league football is really only most are there for the craic and common sense has to come in to it . and to add these incidents last nite going by rules are black cards but not deliberate enough for to go over top with them .

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 15/06/2016 15:28:35    1867260

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Although I rubbished the idea at first I cannot deny that the game has improved since the black card was introduced.

Floops (Dublin) - Posts: 1623 - 15/06/2016 15:49:28    1867268

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The black card has done nothing to improve the game, maybe if the hand pass is curtailed then that may improve matters. Most of the inter county matches are difficult to watch and have not improved with the miss-use of a black card. I see no logic in the TMO as you would berequired at many many county pitches and the personnel and cameras are not available for that. It fine with few ruby matches. The have hawk eye in CP but it appears that they do not use it for the Cristy Ring cup matches-enough said

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 15/06/2016 16:10:32    1867281

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Replying To Dellboypolecat:  "B league football is really only most are there for the craic and common sense has to come in to it . and to add these incidents last nite going by rules are black cards but not deliberate enough for to go over top with them ."
I'm fairly sure Donal might tell you different :)

Torcaill (Australia) - Posts: 204 - 15/06/2016 22:56:34    1867462

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Replying To Torcaill:  "I'm fairly sure Donal might tell you different :)"
Donal ??????

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 16/06/2016 00:18:25    1867485

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I have to agree there are too many refs out there not up to the standard. I understand it's a thankless job but is it fair on the players who train all year and can lose a match on numerous incorrect calls from a ref?
I mean image training 5 nights a week all year for a Penalty not to be awarded or for a foul to go unpunished and for it to end your season.
If a ref isn't up to stand then they should be given a few chances then let go if no improvement has been made.
Players are at a professional level in all but name but the standard of refs isn't.
kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts:26 - 15/06/2016 12:32:31 A referee probably has a couple of hundred decisions to make over the course of a game. Will hey make mistakes? Yes because they are human and its natural. Is it fair on referees and spectators that players don't know the rules of the game and continuously break them.
Ideally a game will not be decided on an incorrect call from a referee but you cannot prevent that.
And a referee shouldn't be let go if found not good enough at a level. You simply push the referee down to a grade that they are more comfortable with.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/06/2016 21:13:05    1867907

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