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Replying To arock: " Replying To ormondbannerman: "Scrap the black card now
Think it is time to scrap the black card it is a mess. fermanagh got one today which was harsh compared to some tackles Donegal where doing. And Sligo v roscommon Sligo would feel hard done as again decision on black cards where not equal with some late hits by roscommon. thanks gaa it has been tried and it has failed. time to scrap it.
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts:14765 - 12/06/2016 19:26:27What do you replace it with? Just a yellow isn't enough. Would you be in favour of a sin bin? As simply a tick, then yellow isn't good enough at stopping cynical play
Totally it is destroying the game and am a ref myself and at times I find it hard to call so time to get rid .
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts:14765 - 12/06/2016 19:42:34 Yes they can be difficult decisions but that doesn't mean they should be got rid of. They attempt to stop cynical play which is destroying the game so what do you do about cynical play if no black card?
Scrap it ASAP. It hasn't worked but the GAA don't like to admit they are wrong so will probably continue. I mean how long has it been in effect? 3-4 years and still refs can't get the handle on it.....if they haven't by now they never will.
Does anyone on here believe in still believe it should be used?
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts:158 - 12/06/2016 19:57:58 And replace it with what? Would you go back to old system?
The black card should be scrapped. In today's game, Podge Collins of Clare was wrongly given a black card. A Clare player in the second half committed a clear black card offence and yet the referee didn't issue any card.
The GAA are right to punish cynical fouls but there are better options that a black card. In my own humble opinion, cynical fouls should be punished by a yellow card and a 21 yard free in front of the posts. In the event that a cynical foul denies a clear goal scoring opportunity though the offence might be outside of the large square, the attacking team should be awarded a penalty so that they retain the goal scoring opportunity.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4691 - 12/06/2016 20:11:24I don't agree all cynical fouls deserve a 21 yard free in front of the posts. A yellow card isn't enough. It needs to be more than a yellow. would you agree with a sin bin?" We can't go back to doing NOTHING about the pulling and dragging, no no please god not that milarcky. But it is also down to really poor referees and officials I saw a player PUNCHED in the stomach and nothing was done - bizarre. There was inconsistency in decisions applied today in Donegal game. A sin bin for a Yellow would certainly clean the game up. But I think fans want it every which way but lose, at the end of the day a poor ref is just a poor ref if you don't know how to apply the rules you shouldn't be a ref."
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 12/06/2016 22:39:54
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Replying To gotmilk: "Am i right in saying that a black card should only be given for an intentional foul? Other than that it's yellow?" Must be deliberately dragged down , trip , body checking ,abusing opponent
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 12/06/2016 22:41:45
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The warnings were there when this rule came out as Ulsterman says. Was just looking back at the post I put up a couple of years back on the thread about the Rule Changes that were introduced:
I agree with a few posters on here that firstly all these rule changes are not necessary and whats worse is the application of said rules, most notably the black card, where there is no consistency not only from game to game or referee to referee but within the 60 or 70 minutes of the actual game by the same referee. I have watched a number of games at club level this year already and you have one team playing to what they see as the rules, the other team playing like there is no new rule about the black card and referees who are letting multiple things go which should be black cards throughout the game then come the last 10 or 20 mins issuing one or two for what seems to be to make sure they have had a record of at least one. And in most cases I have seen the ones issued were no different to other fouls which either went unpunished or were deemed to be yellow cards.
As there seems to be a problem officiating the new rule then how the hell can you expect the players on the field to know what is going to be deemed a black card? In the games mentioned above it is obvious that some teams are trying to play the rules but being let down by the ref. So what are they supposed to do next time they go out? Do they change their stance and maybe be a bit more ruthless in the tackle and hope that the ref is as confused as the previous weeks ref (and risk then getting a black card if he is refereeing it by the book). In at least two of these games the team which was playing to the rule lost the game (by minimum scores) and lost it because the other team were dragging them down every time they tried to get over the half way line and so couldn't get momentum going while maybe being over cautious themsleves in their defence and allowing the opposition easy passage through to get scores.
This stance didn't go down too well with a number of posters at the time - here are just a selection of the comments:
"Offside-Rule the thing I have taken from your post is that there is a problem in your county with club teams pulling and dragging the opposition to the ground and using this tactic to win games. If this is the case surely you agree that a rule change is needed?"
"Listen..if the refs applied the rules properly blah blah blah..What about the managers and players that played the game cynically..That tactically setup teams to foul. Blaming the refs... FFS"
"Play to the rules and sure what have you to worry about -It's that simple. If you pull down a man = Black card. If you intentionally setup to play a spoiling game and block players off the ball = Black card. Just play to the rules and hope the ref makes the right calls.Time for a bit of skillful football. lets see if you're good enough"
"If a forward blocks off a half back he'll get a black card. If a forward drags down his marker in a cynical manner he'll get a black card"
"For the record I am all for the black card. I have watched our half backs being purposely blocked by lesser players for long enough - No skill whatsoever... simply just not good enough to do anything else. I think it will help to increase the skill level of the game by allowing gifted footballers to play football"
So I left it with:
...I believe the Black Card has been ill thought out and rushed in and from what I have seen to date (again moreso at Club level but also at County) is that the application of the rule changes depending on the referee or, dare I say, the teams involved...So Yes, I am against the Black Card.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 13/06/2016 09:40:10
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There was the perfect answer to this problem & foil to all the pulling & dragging, it was called the Sin Bin. When introduced by trial in games there was more actual play time, more attacking free flowing football & more scores, all factually collated at the time. So what happened, well the Gaa caved into high profile managers, players, media & administrators at the time & the crap spouted that it was aping Rugby & it was done away with, despite the clear cut evidence. So in typical Gaa fashion, they accept their own half baked solution. They will never revert to the Sin Bin as it would be an admission that they got it wrong & hurtful to the Committee that came up with the Black Card idea. The problem lies within the Gaa hierarchy, just as we saw this week gone with the Meath & Antrim final, total incompetence, unfortunately at all levels in the Association, club, county etc people are abandoning it in droves & completely sick of it over issues like this & the way they are dealt with. There is a serious dearth of real leadership with the b#lls to make decisions within the Gaa & the Association is suffering as a result. Sin Bin was the solution.
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 13/06/2016 10:10:45
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Replying To moc.dna: "There was the perfect answer to this problem & foil to all the pulling & dragging, it was called the Sin Bin. When introduced by trial in games there was more actual play time, more attacking free flowing football & more scores, all factually collated at the time. So what happened, well the Gaa caved into high profile managers, players, media & administrators at the time & the crap spouted that it was aping Rugby & it was done away with, despite the clear cut evidence. So in typical Gaa fashion, they accept their own half baked solution. They will never revert to the Sin Bin as it would be an admission that they got it wrong & hurtful to the Committee that came up with the Black Card idea. The problem lies within the Gaa hierarchy, just as we saw this week gone with the Meath & Antrim final, total incompetence, unfortunately at all levels in the Association, club, county etc people are abandoning it in droves & completely sick of it over issues like this & the way they are dealt with. There is a serious dearth of real leadership with the b#lls to make decisions within the Gaa & the Association is suffering as a result. Sin Bin was the solution." I thought sin bin worked and they scrapped it when after trail period .should have give it longer .
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 13/06/2016 15:59:47
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Is there a lesson to be learned from the Donegal v Fermanagh game yesterday? It seemed to show that if you want to stop a player but escape a black card you should tackle him about the neck. That Is what happened yesterday, with the culprits picking up yellow cards. Cullen didn't get the message though, tackled Murphy lower down and got a black card.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 13/06/2016 16:43:46
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Replying To gotmilk: "100% agree with this. Serious problem is the lack of consistency in administering it, even in the same games." Scrap the referees who fail to administer the rules properly
mrfox (Wexford) - Posts: 338 - 14/06/2016 01:00:59
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Reply: Am a ref as you know but this rule is to confusing . Like I stated I will not give black unless it is fully blatant but I hate the rule .
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts:14786 - 12/06/2016 20:44:48 186574
To be honest I've seen you reffing, I think you find a lot of the rules confusing,
hootervillian (Meath) - Posts: 308 - 14/06/2016 06:16:44
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Replying To neverright: "Is there a lesson to be learned from the Donegal v Fermanagh game yesterday? It seemed to show that if you want to stop a player but escape a black card you should tackle him about the neck. That Is what happened yesterday, with the culprits picking up yellow cards. Cullen didn't get the message though, tackled Murphy lower down and got a black card." Your exactly correct. That is the way the rule is worded which is why its a stupid ruling.
You actually have to bring the player to ground. so the clothesline tackle is not a black card.
I have actually heard a story of a club team in another county actually training in how not to get a black card.
dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 14/06/2016 09:28:47
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alot of the issues are that the general public are not quite sure what the rule is. i hear people at matches screaming for black cards when to me the fould doesn't lokk "deliberately" cynical. but I will admit that there are still quite a few deliberate cynical fouls that refs let go. the rule should be amended to exclude the part whereby a fouled player must end up on the ground because you can deliberately and cynically stop a scoring chance or a player in his tracks without taking him to ground. It has certainly stopped the body-checking of opponents off the ball after they have laid it off (that is one good thing it has done). I say keep it. but amend it as stated above.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 14/06/2016 10:32:34
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s goldrick - disagree, it has had its day in the sun and needs to be got rid of asap. The post I posted above from a few years ago is every bit as relevant to how it is being applied or not applied as the case quite often is as it was when the card was in it's infancy. Every game that I go to there are numerous black card incidents which aren't called - deliberate trips, pull downs, 3rd man tackles, abuse towards opposition and the refs. Then out of the blue the ref will decide he is going to punish a player. If the refs applied the rule as written then most games would end up about 10-a-side. As it is down to interpretation by the ref as to what is deliberate and what isn't it is then too open to either wrong calls being made or complaints that similar offences aren't being punished the same way. Yes this is true of most refereeing decisions but as I said a few years ago let's concentrate on applying the rules that are in place before adding more confusion by adding something like the black card.
Unfortunately a lot of the refereeing I have seen has left a lot to be desired. While there are some very good refs out there unfortunately there are a good few who either need to go back to basics or step aside altogether as a ref shouldn't be the influence on a result in any circumstance yet in my experience this is not the case and the ref has had a direct influence on the outcome of games. In our own senior club games this season we have lost 3 games by a point or two and each time I left totally frustrated with the display of the ref who was the difference between us winning and losing on the decisions he took (or didn't take) through the game. As a former player and now manager it annoys me to see the efforts a team puts in coming to nothing through no fault of their own but bad refereeing.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/06/2016 10:58:08
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Scrap poor referees , leave the card alone
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 14/06/2016 11:07:27
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Replying To Offside_Rule: "s goldrick - disagree, it has had its day in the sun and needs to be got rid of asap. The post I posted above from a few years ago is every bit as relevant to how it is being applied or not applied as the case quite often is as it was when the card was in it's infancy. Every game that I go to there are numerous black card incidents which aren't called - deliberate trips, pull downs, 3rd man tackles, abuse towards opposition and the refs. Then out of the blue the ref will decide he is going to punish a player. If the refs applied the rule as written then most games would end up about 10-a-side. As it is down to interpretation by the ref as to what is deliberate and what isn't it is then too open to either wrong calls being made or complaints that similar offences aren't being punished the same way. Yes this is true of most refereeing decisions but as I said a few years ago let's concentrate on applying the rules that are in place before adding more confusion by adding something like the black card.
Unfortunately a lot of the refereeing I have seen has left a lot to be desired. While there are some very good refs out there unfortunately there are a good few who either need to go back to basics or step aside altogether as a ref shouldn't be the influence on a result in any circumstance yet in my experience this is not the case and the ref has had a direct influence on the outcome of games. In our own senior club games this season we have lost 3 games by a point or two and each time I left totally frustrated with the display of the ref who was the difference between us winning and losing on the decisions he took (or didn't take) through the game. As a former player and now manager it annoys me to see the efforts a team puts in coming to nothing through no fault of their own but bad refereeing." so you blame the ref for yous losing 2 or 3 games by a point. Have yu gone through the whole game and analysed every decision or lack of decision. How extraordinary that every manager or supporter thinks the ref is against his team. There is little or no blocking now off the ball when i player has made a pass and is running forward to support the play. this was endemic before the introduction of the black card. I think it has its problems and , yes, some refs find it difficult but the better refs are getting a handle on it.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 14/06/2016 11:17:09
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I am not surprised by your response as I knew that's what you would come back with, I am not the manager of that team, we have also lost games by a point or two which had nothing to do with the ref but down to either poor play by ourselves or just coming up against a better team. Unlike a lot I will call a spade a spade - if you or others think refs are above all criticism then that is where we are going wrong and it is no wonder we are in the state we are in with officials. Sure let's just carry on as things are and totally ignore the elephant in the room. The theory behind the black card is OK but it was never going to work in a million years as has been proven time and time again over the last few years and which a blind man could have seen coming. Again I will say - let's get in a position where we have a similar standard of referee across the board who will apply the rules as outlined and then, maybe then, think of having something like the black card with definitive rules and not something open to interpretation.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/06/2016 11:46:54
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Replying To Offside_Rule: "s goldrick - disagree, it has had its day in the sun and needs to be got rid of asap. The post I posted above from a few years ago is every bit as relevant to how it is being applied or not applied as the case quite often is as it was when the card was in it's infancy. Every game that I go to there are numerous black card incidents which aren't called - deliberate trips, pull downs, 3rd man tackles, abuse towards opposition and the refs. Then out of the blue the ref will decide he is going to punish a player. If the refs applied the rule as written then most games would end up about 10-a-side. As it is down to interpretation by the ref as to what is deliberate and what isn't it is then too open to either wrong calls being made or complaints that similar offences aren't being punished the same way. Yes this is true of most refereeing decisions but as I said a few years ago let's concentrate on applying the rules that are in place before adding more confusion by adding something like the black card.
Unfortunately a lot of the refereeing I have seen has left a lot to be desired. While there are some very good refs out there unfortunately there are a good few who either need to go back to basics or step aside altogether as a ref shouldn't be the influence on a result in any circumstance yet in my experience this is not the case and the ref has had a direct influence on the outcome of games. In our own senior club games this season we have lost 3 games by a point or two and each time I left totally frustrated with the display of the ref who was the difference between us winning and losing on the decisions he took (or didn't take) through the game. As a former player and now manager it annoys me to see the efforts a team puts in coming to nothing through no fault of their own but bad refereeing." The main problem you seem to have with the black card is the standard of refereeing and the application of the rule, not the rule itself. As others have said the rule has reduced the number of runs being deliberately blocked, and when applied correctly it has the potential to improve the game. The biggest flaws the rule has is firstly the wording in that a player has to be pulled to the ground, but that can be amended, and secondly the standard of refereeing in interpreting the rule, but that needs better refereeing, not a rule change. I wouldn't be in favour of scrapping the rule without a serious alternative, and I don't mean the 'sure it was fine as it was' line, because it wasn't.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 14/06/2016 11:58:48
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AHP - no I have a problem with both the Black Card and the standard of refs - as my last post, last sentence above said:
Again I will say - let's get in a position where we have a similar standard of referee across the board who will apply the rules as outlined and then, maybe then, think of having something like the black card with definitive rules and not something open to interpretation.
I argued back a few years ago about the ambiguity of the rules of the Black Card as were defined. What I am saying is that trying to have something in place to deal with cynical play etc is the right thinking, just not how the did go about it.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/06/2016 12:25:52
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Replying To Damothedub: "Scrap poor referees , leave the card alone" I stated this before refs get stick from all angles if you feel your a expert and others slating refs should take up the whistle and it be perfect then .
Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 14/06/2016 12:39:43
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I stated this before refs get stick from all angles if you feel your a expert and others slating refs should take up the whistle and it be perfect then .
See Dellboy - that is the kind of retort which annoys the bejaysus out of me. If someone is not up to a standard then they shouldn't be in a position to officiate at a game. Because someone has the cahoonas to put themselves forward as a referee then it shouldn't be they are above criticism when they make mistakes. And if those mistakes are not limited to one game but are repeated then they shouldn't be let referee a game until they have proven they are capable. The GAA should look to other codes (like Soccer) to see how they deal with a ref who makes a blunder in a game instead of putting them above criticism. It can only help the standards.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/06/2016 13:12:55
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Replying To Dellboypolecat: "I stated this before refs get stick from all angles if you feel your a expert and others slating refs should take up the whistle and it be perfect then ." It was said in jest
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 14/06/2016 13:15:11
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Replying To Dellboypolecat: "I stated this before refs get stick from all angles if you feel your a expert and others slating refs should take up the whistle and it be perfect then ." Being a ref is a thankless job Del, of that I have no doubt. But surely you can admit that a serious issue with refs is consistency. Is there any punishment for a ref who has a shocker?
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 14/06/2016 13:15:43
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