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14 v 14 hasn't really existed for 20 years when teams started pulling out a 3rd man to midfield. 14 v 14 strict man marker isn't something that was unique to Gaelic games. Basketball and soccer were man marking games in the past also. Strict man marking is such an exploitable strategy. In the 1950s Hungary took England to the cleaners by moving English defenders out of position and dictating the game to them. By the 70s zonal defensive structures became popular. It's taken Gaelic 30-40 years to move to a more intelligent way of playing. I really like this article from last year. http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paddy-heaney/new-position-needed-on-line-ups-333297.html Man marking still exists and you can still get excited about man to man match ups. Theres a whole lot more new interesting stuff going on also. As for reducing creativity, well that is tripe. The current Dublin team take a very structured approach to the game and still have players like Bernard Brogan and Diarmuid Connolly. Having a good structure gives them more freedom do concentrate on attacking. To be honest a lot of the complaints about the "blanket defence" reeks to me off not be prepared to accept the game has changed. It has. It's never going back to the way it was. There are lots to enjoy about the way the game has gone but I feel some people look more for the negatives to reinforce their own world view. RTEs coverage doesn't help. Brolly and Spillane have their own personal agendas and will look to peddle them any chance they get. Spillane in particular was critical of mass defending probably because it took Kerry a few years to figure out how to beat it. He hasn't changed the record now for ten years. It doesn't help that Ulster teams pioneered it. RTEs attitude to the Ulster counties is borderline xenophobic. Take the reaction to the Tyrone Derry game where Tyrone played excellently. They wrote that game off as rubbish. Last year Dublin hammered Longford in Leinster and we were treated to an exhibition of wonderful attacking play, let's not mention the fact that Longford left themselves open wider than the Suez Canal. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/05/2016 09:06:32 1859492 Link 3 |
I think a lot of teams or formations are being bundled unfairly under the one bracket. Basically if they bring men back when the opposition receive the ball they are accused of this dreaded blanket defence. Where a closer look will show their are variations. AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 28/05/2016 10:25:21 1859510 Link 1 |
Whammo there is a lot I disagree with in your post but one thing in particular I disagree with is the idea that many people don't like the new style of game because it was pioneered by ulster sides or because of Spillane and Brolly. In hurling a similar system is being pioneered by Munster teams and is not being commented on by either man yet people are also totally opposed to the style, including possibly the best hurler in the country. The only benefit of this type tactic creeping into hurling is people may start to appreciate it is not an anti-ulster stance to say they don't like the game moving away from man-to-man marking.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 28/05/2016 11:19:48 1859524 Link 0 |
My post was mainly referring to football where until recently most of the outcry has been focused. I actually don't know all that much about hurling. If someone were to tell me the sweeper system is terrible for hurling I would probably defer to their judgement. If it's from someone who is also against progress in football I'd hold their opinion in less weight but still wouldn't feel knowledgeable enough to disagree them. The term blanket defence is being used to describe these strategies, linking them back to Ulster football. So I don't think you can say the anti-Ulster bias is completely removed from this. I would be interested in hearing other points you disagree with. I'd take your views with an open mind. Maybe you would come out with some interesting that would change my opinion. Very little I've heard from critics of modern football had really swayed me so far. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/05/2016 11:55:40 1859532 Link 1 |
It's not though.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 28/05/2016 12:38:55 1859542 Link 2 |
I was going to post a long reply about this but having read the thread I see that the likes of Whammo, Gary, Brend and Muckross have pretty much summed up what I was going to say. MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 28/05/2016 12:49:38 1859545 Link 3 |
Away with ye Soma, Your down as located in the UK, yet your posts read like you're a Butterman and so you probably are from the Butter capital of Ireland. Possibly a troll account to try and show people outside of Kerry care.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 28/05/2016 17:13:47 1859583 Link 0 |
Games develop and in this day of sport being a science it is bound to develop. The most successful teams will be teams that in a moment can switch tactics, be they defensive or attack, but who actually have players with the right skills required to deliver the scores to win. What frankly rubbish is rubbish is employing a blanket for a full game. Or using a sweeper when in actual fact they are just a "Spare man" if a sweeper ends up being a spare man it is not working, in the games I have watched they are - spare players. What the manager employing these tactics is saying to his own team is "Look lads you really are crap not good enough but this is the only way we can play these guys they are just far better players than you." Which is why Dublin's name is already etched on Sam for this year. arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 29/05/2016 11:59:45 1859671 Link 0 |
I have no problem at all in admitting that man for man Dublin are the best team in the country. That being the case then opposition teams are going to have to come up with ways of nullifying that advantage. How they do it will depend on their own playing resources & to the management's tactical nous & approach to the game. Championship is about one thing & one thing alone, winning. How a team gets across the line is of far less importance to actually getting there. Does any team have it in them to stop Dublin? I don't know, I suspect not, but it is going to be great watching them try. MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 29/05/2016 14:35:48 1859706 Link 0 |
I have no problem at all in admitting that man for man Dublin are the best team in the country. That being the case then opposition teams are going to have to come up with ways of nullifying that advantage. How they do it will depend on their own playing resources & to the management's tactical nous & approach to the game. Championship is about one thing & one thing alone, winning. How a team gets across the line is of far less importance to actually getting there. Does any team have it in them to stop Dublin? I don't know, I suspect not, but it is going to be great watching them try & the fact that Dublin have the best players is not reason for anyone to give up hope. 2016 has already proved to be the year of the underdog, Leicester, Connacht & Danny Willett spring to mind off the top of my head. Who is to say that the Championship won't throw up a surprise? MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 29/05/2016 14:38:01 1859707 Link 0 |
Whammo the fact that you believe criticism of the defensive tactics creeping into hurling is really just another way of attacking ulster football suggests you may not be as open minded as you think on the matter! Surely it could be described as anti-soccer as the tactics have some similarities? Similarly I notice that you consider anyone who dislikes blanket defending as being against progress - there is a difference between change and progress, it is up to each individual to decide what is what. In any case Alan Brogan had an excellent interview in Sundays paper. Remember he has won all 3 of his All-Ireland senior medals this decade so has had huge personal success in the defensive football era. Yet he believes if he was starting out now he wouldn't become an intercounty player as his massive ability would not be enough to overcome his lack of physique. I don't see this being a good thing for the game, in fact it's quite depressing that 2 of the best forwards this century, Brogan and Gooch, believe this to be true. Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 31/05/2016 16:48:57 1860336 Link 0 |
Whammo the fact that you believe criticism of the defensive tactics creeping into hurling is really just another way of attacking ulster football suggests you may not be as open minded as you think on the matter! I don't think that. I think the pundits don't like the defensive tactics. They still use the phrase blanket defence to describe it though. That phrase has it's origins as a (derogatory) description of the tactics used by Ulster football teams around the early 2000s. That's why I feel the anti-Ulster sentiment is not completely removed. I agree though that it's not the primary motivation for the dissent. The current tactics in football are definitely progress. You can argue that they are not aesthetically pleasing but it is without doubt an evolution of the game. Personally I prefer it. Yes there are a number of bad games. There were a number of bad games in the past also. The catch and kick style I found to be horrible to watch. I hate when possession is given away cheaply in any game. Alan Brogan was one of my favourite players of the last 15 years. I wouldn't like the game to start losing players of his or the Gooch's ilk. I don't think it's happened yet, I hope it doesn't happen in the future. There's a place for smart forwards able to find themselves in pockets of space. The game still needs playmakers and scorers. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/05/2016 18:55:17 1860359 Link 0 |
I just don't understand how people who lived through the 90s and saw the genuine joy across the country when ulster teams dominated in a way they never had before or since believes the disillusionment with current defensive tactics (used by teams the length of the country) is an anti-ulster thing. Anyway why do you seem to be suggesting the only 2 ways of playing are catch&kick or the modern defensive style? Do you think that was the extent of the tactic used by great managers like McGrath, Coleman, Boylan or O'Mahoney? And sadly we both know Gooch and Brogan are correct, 2 of the key requirements of the modern forward are the stamina to constantly make runs up and down the pitch and the physique to retain possession when tackled by 3-4 players. Hurling is going the same way it appears, hence why the more skilful players are finding less enjoyment in the game. To constantly view it as anti-ulster or jealousy from less successful counties means it cannot be properly addressed and the next wave of Goochs, Brogans and Callanans may be lost to our games. Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 31/05/2016 20:27:05 1860378 Link 0 |
I was still very young when the Ulster teams dominated in the early 90s so I am no familiar with the media's coverage of that era. I am aware of RTE's coverage since the late 90s and I feel it is not particularly balanced when it comes to Ulster teams. I mentioned catch and kick as a style I did not like, people have a sense of nostalgia about it where you had 2 men constantly competing for the ball. It wasn't to my taste. I never said it was the only style around pre 2000s. That's the second post in a row where you've tried putting words into my mouth. My perception of many of your posts is that you lump the tactics of every modern county under the same bracket of defensive football and that there are no thrilling teams around anymore and that modern football is in a state of terminal decline. The main point of my argument is that yes there are bad teams. Yes there are awful games, but there are also some very good teams. Teams that attack as well as defend. There are things to enjoy about football right now. Not all the facets of the past have been lost, you still have man marking. You still have direct play. There are still great score takers. There are excellent playmakers. I really enjoyed watching Cavan at the weekend. They really pushed up on Armagh, contesting kick outs and putting them under pressure the whole way up the pitch. They played some great direct ball into Argue in full forward who was in a straight up battle with Vernon. McKernan around the middle dominated. Johnston was able to find space amongst Armagh's crowded defence to knock over I think 3 points from play. I really enjoyed football in the late 90s. The likes of Joyce, Canavan, Mickey Linden, Trevor Giles, Darren Fay, Seamus Moynihan were all great players and there were some great games but my point is that this era isn't anywhere near as bad as the doom merchants make it out to be. I would also be very resistant to changes in the rules, I'd prefer to let things go and see how things pan out. I find that interesting. There will be new styles that will sprout over the coming years. I don't want us to go reaching for the rule book every time some crops up that someone on the Sunday Game finds unfit for our great games. There are signs that the ultra defensive teams are starting to struggle. Forwards are getting used to playing against the crowded defences and they are gaining the upper hand. Armagh at the weekend forfeited the game in the middle third allowing Cavan to advance freely to their 45. A few years ago a team may not have known what to do but not anymore. They weren't even all that patient about it, they picked Armagh off rather ruthlessly and efficiently. To score 2-16 is pretty impressive stuff. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/05/2016 21:30:11 1860394 Link 1 |
I'm not wholly convinced that Gooch or Brogan wouldn't make it in this era. There is pretty decent evidence that they would make it considering how Brogan was still part of the Dublin panel last year and Gooch is likely going to be starting for Kerry despite both players being well past their primes. Gooch and Brogan would also probably have had more strength and conditioning coaching if they were starting out now. I really don't think their skills would be lost to the game, they've got ability that cannot be ran into someone. There will always be a place for that. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/05/2016 21:30:38 1860395 Link 0 |
Whammo I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand your viewpoint. I don't really know why you compare modern football to catch&kick when that tactic has not really been used by any decent side in your lifetime. I hope you are correct that there is still a place in the game for young talents coming through like Gooch and Brogan but the fact they say they wouldn't make it now is worrying. The system used by many sides now requires total buy-in by all players and needs players with exceptional endurance and/or exceptional physical strength, something neither of them players had. I saw an interview with Crossmaglens Johnny Hanratty today where he says Cross like to play an attacking style as it is so much more enjoyable for the players than the defensive style used by many teams. Players with exceptional skill and creativity will play a sport where they can showcase these skills the best, or in many cases not bother at all. I mentioned on here that the modern style of football is a major reason why many players now refuse the opportunity to play with their county and was told this was nonsense - I think Hanrattys interview supports my view, as does Seamus Callanans. Football and basketball, 2 sports you mentioned earlier, brought in big changes when tactics limiting the impact of the most skilful players were being used. I don't know why anyone who loves gaelic games should be against any proposals to encourage more positive play and to ensure that the most talented players are not lost to the sports. Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 01/06/2016 12:16:02 1860483 Link 0 |
No fun watching a blanket , some fun under a blanket Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 01/06/2016 15:46:09 1860568 Link 1 |
You obviously don't remember Spillane lambasting Donegal for their short passing style game. He was still giving out about it until the early noughties.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 01/06/2016 17:13:11 1860617 Link 0 |
You're correct there gotmilk. I can hardly remember a televised Donegal game in the 90's or 00's where our traditional short hand passing game wasn't lambasted by either Pat Spillane or Colm O Rourke. They couldn't get their heads around the fact that we had inside forwards such as Tony Boyle, Brendan Devenney and Adrian Sweeney but continued to use what they thought was overuse of short hand passing out the field. It was just natural for Donegal to play that way HandballRef (Donegal) - Posts: 520 - 01/06/2016 19:41:12 1860650 Link 0 |
Soma Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/06/2016 20:38:41 1860672 Link 0 |