|
Replying To opa01: "For me the difficulty is the lobsided nature of the provincial championships. While there are 6 counties playing in Munster and Connacht and 11 playing in Leinster it is never going to be fair.
The Provincial Championships must be separated from the All-Ireland series.
In addition the Leitrim Manager said last week that Leitrim players could only look forward to 2 Championship games per year - not enough to gain experience when compared to the top teams playing 6 or 7 per year. He also said Leitrim U21s get 1 game most years. To prepare for the intensity of Championship you need experience of Championship games. I also think every county deserves to be able to play for Sam Maguire every year so the idea of a B Championship separately is incorrect.
What we need, in my opinion, is for the so-called weaker counties to have the opportunity to improve, to play more Championship games while being cognisant of the need for Clubs to be able to have their own time in the calendar.
So I'd propose 8 groups of 4 based on League placings so each group would have a Div 1 team, a Div 2 team, a Div 3 team and a Div 4 team. The Div 4 team would have 3 home games, Div 3 team 2 home games, Div 2 team 1 home game while the Div 1 team played all their games away. The top 2 teams go into the last 16 while the bottom 2 drop into the B championship all on a knockout basis from that point. So each Div 4 team knows it has 3 full championship games and at least one B championship game every year and it will have a good chance against a Div 3 team.
A group with Roscommon, Galway, Offaly and Wexford based on this year's League placings would be very competitive where Offaly would fancy their chances against Galway.
With a full round of games every two weeks it could be run off in June, July, August with the A & B finals in early September freeing up May and the rest of September for clubs.
The U21 Championship could be run on a similar format again giving the so-called weaker counties the opportunity to improve." I agree with you regarding the u21 championship.
I think the GAA missed a trick last year in changing to u17 and u20.
I think the 2 grades should have merged to form an under 19 grade and for there to be a decent season provided for these players.
Under 19 is the ideal age for this. It would involve mainly first or second year university age people. There's less exam pressure, university football, adult club senior pressure on these players.
It's also the age when people start getting lost to the game. Go off to uni and pack it in. County minor football might keep them at it.
As for the 4 groups of 8 it makes the championship more fair but I'd worry about it from an excitement point of view. There'd be 6 matches in each group, realistically if you got 10-12 good match ups out of those 48 games you'd be doing well.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 27/05/2016 13:59:53
1859331
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "It is too convoluted. A Round of 16 as I suggested is straightforward enough. Seeding teams based on league placing is also straightforward. Everyone will have a fair enough idea of where they stand. If they wished, they could opt for 50% representation from each province in the final 16." Convoluted? Seems a lot more straightforward than many of yours legend!
If was to be applied to this year's league & championship, I reckon it would comprise the top 15 teams in the league and Kildare (17th)
m_the_d (None) - Posts: 1099 - 27/05/2016 16:54:21
1859400
Link
0
|
|
Replying To m_the_d: "Convoluted? Seems a lot more straightforward than many of yours legend!
If was to be applied to this year's league & championship, I reckon it would comprise the top 15 teams in the league and Kildare (17th)" A Round of 16 isn't complicated in fairness. Seeding qualifiers based on league placing isn't complicated either.
I am only suggesting small changes within the current structures that might bring more balance to the championship.
It is harsh on an Ulster division 1 county knocked out in the Ulster preliminary or quarter-finals by a fellow division 1 county to then be drawn against another division 1 county in the early qualifier rounds.
At the same time though, I suppose Ulster could get their own house in order. If they had a seeding similar to Leinster, we might see teams of a similar level entering each round of the qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 27/05/2016 17:29:36
1859414
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "A Round of 16 isn't complicated in fairness. Seeding qualifiers based on league placing isn't complicated either.
I am only suggesting small changes within the current structures that might bring more balance to the championship.
It is harsh on an Ulster division 1 county knocked out in the Ulster preliminary or quarter-finals by a fellow division 1 county to then be drawn against another division 1 county in the early qualifier rounds.
At the same time though, I suppose Ulster could get their own house in order. If they had a seeding similar to Leinster, we might see teams of a similar level entering each round of the qualifiers." Well he did manage to put it all in one small paragraph. In regard to fairness or otherwise on the ulster teams, it's just luck of the draw.
m_the_d (None) - Posts: 1099 - 27/05/2016 18:07:50
1859421
Link
0
|
|
After all the endless debate, I have come around to a six-month season that has a 10-match league schedule and Prov Champps played concurrently leading to 5 AIC Playoff Rds.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 28/05/2016 18:04:40
1859589
Link
0
|
|
On the topic of "Dividing the championship will never work", the best day in Kerry hurling over the last 25 years was when they beat Waterford in the Munster Championship. People talk about that far more than any of the Christy Ring titles that Kerry have won.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 29/05/2016 18:42:34
1859775
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "On the topic of "Dividing the championship will never work", the best day in Kerry hurling over the last 25 years was when they beat Waterford in the Munster Championship. People talk about that far more than any of the Christy Ring titles that Kerry have won." If there was a proper competition structure legendzxix, you could still have these kind of memorable days.
If there was a league structure in place with the top 4 sides in each league going through to the All-Ireland semi-final this would be the path to your All-Ireland final.
Running along with that competition, you'd have the provincial Championships - like the FA Cup runs along with the Premier league.
For me, this is the easiest and straight forward solution to the problem which is our Championship structure. Your just re-jigging whats already in place - all counties will be playing hurling during the summer months. The Clubs would know exactly where they stand with their season also.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 29/05/2016 19:51:48
1859792
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "On the topic of "Dividing the championship will never work", the best day in Kerry hurling over the last 25 years was when they beat Waterford in the Munster Championship. People talk about that far more than any of the Christy Ring titles that Kerry have won." That may be true, but Kerry probably wouldn't be where they are now without the Christy Ring. As Offaly are sorely finding out, reminiscing about the past is no substitute for a thought out and logical development plan.
muffinbutton (Clare) - Posts: 20 - 30/05/2016 11:40:45
1859897
Link
2
|
|
muffinbutton have to agree with you there.
That is the exaqct point I was making legendstix..the days of reminising about a great vistory are long gone.
in 92 when the Kerry hurlers beat Waterford they were probably doing 2/3 nights a week training for a few months. They beat waterford and prob spent the summer on the lash after.
Those days are gone...the weaker counties now train as hard as any of the good teams....their life is taken up with sport and they will soon realize that there is too much involved for a pipe dream.
Kerry hurlers were able to rebuild in the Christy Ring to get to their current level. Take Kerry out of Leinster and put them into the Munster Championship... after a couple of years of hammerings then you will the real damage of constant hammerings and players would pack it in.
Kerry hurlers are in a good place now due to a Tier2 competition but if all they had to look forward to was a hiding from Cork or Tipp they would be lucky to get 20 players to tog out.
woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 30/05/2016 13:21:51
1859946
Link
0
|
|
Lads I don't think you can really use the tiers in Hurling to justify tiers in Football, they're 2 completely different games and while I like Hurling, it just isn't near as widespread or competitive as Football. A team in div3 or even div4 in football could easily give a div1 team (not the elite 2 or 3 though) a good run for their money, the same could hardly be said for hurling where the lower division team would likely get a hammering 9 times out of 10.
Tiers work in Hurling because of the massive gulf in talent and because let's face it, by and large people from counties in the lower hurling tiers couldn't care less that their team isn't going to be challenging for Liam and they're not used to seeing their county playing the big boys anyway. The same can't be said for football though and if you take those big days away you'll do damage to football within weaker counties, no matter what way you try to dress it up that's what would happen and that's why the weaker counties rejected tiers.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/05/2016 14:21:42
1859960
Link
0
|
|
I think it HAS to be done.
There is no valid alternative. A Div 3/4 team will never win an All Ireland. Hell at the moment no Div 3/4 team have any hope of winning their province.
Jim McGuinness put out a perfect new structure last year that took everything into account. If everything was done correctly from an advertisment and media pov then to win the second division would be massive.
At least with tiered system the player know they have a chance to win some silverware. They have a chance of winning a few games in front of a crowd in summer time.
If counties work hard enough they will progress through the ranks and eventually can challenge the big teams like Dublin.
The lesser teams will still have a chance to win their province so they will still get a chance to play their rivals and take a scalp that way.
dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 30/05/2016 14:50:45
1859977
Link
0
|
|
I don't agree, the football should have four grades in line with the four leagues to avoid the one sided matches we are seeing week in week out. Great example The Ulster Championship bandied about as the most competitive, well Antrim didn't get close to Fermanagh, Derry got a hiding from Tyrone, Armagh were easily beaten by Cavan. Down play Monaghan next week and what's the chance it too will be over by halftime. When was the last big upset and did that county go on to win anything never mind win the next game? Football has a snobbery about it, that its beneath them to play in anything other than the Sam Maguire. If counties like Waterford, Wexford, limerick want a second tire Championship I believe the GAA should accommodate their wishes. Antrim have been against it, for why I don't know, we know every year we're going to exit after the first match.
Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 30/05/2016 14:55:14
1859980
Link
0
|
|
The GPA done extensive research on the issue of championship restructuring and they said that the weaker counties don't want a tiered championship, so honestly why force them into it. They came up with their own proposal which unsurprisingly was 8 groups of 4, so why not focus on what the players actually want.
I like Jim McGuinness, he's clearly an intelligent, well spoken man but his championship proposal is too often championed by people who's county won't be condemned to the second tier. If his proposal was implemented then some counties would most likely never play a championship match against a top team ever again, that's a distinct possibility and what possible good could that do for counties stuck in Div3 and Div4, sweet feck all would be answer.
If you want to have a 'B championship' then fine but give everybody a go at the main competition first. So have your 8 groups of 4, every team plays 3 games, the top 2 in each group qualify for the KO stages of the main championship and bottom 2 (well maybe just 3rd placed teams) go into a KO for the B championship. Of you promote it properly and make it mean something, then it could work.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/05/2016 15:46:10
1860013
Link
0
|
|
Good posts Htaem. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though a B championship once teams are knocked out of the main competition would likely struggle to ever be a meaningful competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 30/05/2016 16:38:52
1860045
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "Good posts Htaem. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though a B championship once teams are knocked out of the main competition would likely struggle to ever be a meaningful competition." That certainly has proved to be the case in the past Whammo, the B All-Ireland in the 90s and more recently the Tommy Murphy both failed but the Gaa were very poor at promoting those competitions, they treated more as an inconvenience than anything else.
But I think a B All-Ireland for teams KO'd early out of the main competition could work if it was properly promoted and given proper coverage. Treat it like it actually means something rather than a token competition for 'weak' teams and it might actually be a success.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/05/2016 17:04:17
1860063
Link
0
|
|
Pretty simple competition structure here, gets teams playing competitive football at their level and retaining a chance to win Sam. All teams guaranteed 4 championship matches without dead rubbers.
One big down side to this going through is it doesn't use the provincials as a path to the All Ireland.
I still think it would be a better tournament though and I think the provincials are tournaments worthy of winning in their own right.
3 tiers
A 12 teams
B 12 teams
C 8 teams
Tier C 2 groups of 4 top 2 in each group into semi-finals. Where possible teams who play away in their provincial first round should get 2 home group games. Tournament winner progresses to All Ireland playoff round. Both finalists promoted.
Tier B 4 groups of 3. Top 2 in each group into quarter finals. Each team plays 1 home and 1 away group game. Group winners get home advantage in quarter-finals. Bottom placed teams play in the relegation playoff. Tournament winner qualifies for All Ireland quarter finals. Runner-up qualifies for AI playoff round. Both finalists promoted.
Tier A 4 groups of 3. Top in each group qualifies for All Ireland quarter-finals. 2nd place in each group qualifies for Al playoff round. 3rd place in each group play in the relegation playoff.
AI playoff of 6 teams: 4 from Tier A, 1 from Tier B 1 from Tier C. 3 winners into quarter-finals.
AI quarter-finals: 4 from Tier A, 1 from Tier B plus 3 playoff round winners.
A downside could be that teams get automatically relegated to get an easier draw the following year. I think the tournament is set up though that the draws aren't any easier. For instance in Tier 2 it isn't particularly easy with only 2 teams getting a place in the AI knockout rounds.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 04/06/2016 14:16:23
1861469
Link
0
|
|
Dividing the championship is of no use to anybody. If the best teams were separated this year you would have Dublin playing Tyrone in a playoff and then Mayo Donegal Monaghan and Kerry scrapping it out for 3rd. Surely the lack of interest in the Tommy Murphy cup from a few years back shows that there is nothing to be gained from footballing apartheid.
Football is dying a slow death. The GAA needs to take matters into its own hands and make sure resources and coaching experts are evenly spread around the country, not just in Dublin. And crucially, radical changes to the rules must be made. Sports analysis and tactics have beaten the sport.
I would propose:
13 a side
Teams can't hand pass twice in succession.
Daith (Kildare) - Posts: 1171 - 05/06/2016 09:19:37
1861664
Link
0
|
|
Teams can't hand pass twice in succession
They trialled that rule last year. It was a disaster apparently. Players just played more backwards kick passes.
I don't know what people have against the hand pass. There can be some really nice moves made where 3 or 4 men link up via hand pass.
I don't buy into this whole the name of the game is football crap. When the rule were formalised 130 years ago they looked to try and take the best bits of both soccer and rugby. Hand passing has always been a fundamental skill in the game. Why should it be restricted.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 05/06/2016 11:59:36
1861701
Link
0
|
|
I'm tired of a ridiculous championship structure being kept in place so that the so called weaker counties can cling on to a glimmer of hope of possibly winning silverware. I support a 2 or possibly 3 tier system, but I have seen proposals where everyone competes for Sam that I would prefer over the current system. Between now and the end of the season there will only be 5 or 6 games worth watching.
DBo183 (USA) - Posts: 16 - 10/06/2016 20:47:27
1865008
Link
0
|
|
Play national league at the same time as championship and go back to straight knockout for Sam Maguire.
2 tournaments both worth winning.
7 weeks for league.
6 weeks for provincial championship. 1 for preliminary rounds. 2 for quarter-finals. 2 for semi-finals. Provincial final weekend.
5 more weeks to play AI semis and final.
Season played off in the 18 weeks finishing the week before the August Bank holiday. Club championship starts across the country on August bank holiday weekend. Perfect for clubs. Players get a holiday break at the start of July, followed by time to get ready for championship.
League division 1 2 groups of 6 top 2 to semi-finals. Bottom teams relegated. 5th placed teams playoff to avoid relegation.
Division 2 played in the same way. Losing semi-finalists playoff for promotion.
Division 3 8 teams. 1 round robin. Top team champion, 2nd and 3rd promoted.
If you get knocked out of the championship early you should still have important league games to play to continue your season.
With the league played alongside championship and in the summer months it's profile should increase so that's it a much more prestigious tournament. So if a team such as Tyrone gets knocked out early they can still challenge for the league.
Short compact season for players, with consistent matches. Could mean fewer players opting out of county football.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 10/06/2016 22:05:58
1865034
Link
0
|